Interview with Tea for Me Please, Nicole
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Ryan Ahn (00:00)
All right, hello and welcome to the Specialty Matcha podcast. My name is Ryan and my co-host Zongjun is in China right now and it's a pretty early morning recording here or late-ish morning recording in the States. So he wasn't able to join but I'm happy to have Nicole from Tea for Me Please. So thank you for joining.
Nicole (00:17)
Thanks for having me.
Ryan Ahn (00:18)
So before we jump in, could you share a little bit about Tea for Me, Please and your background? I remember that your blog was like one of the first ever when I was just getting into tea. think it was 11 years ago now. Like you were like one of the few tea bloggers back then in English. And there's like, that was a really small world. So
Nicole (00:38)
Yeah.
Ryan Ahn (00:38)
I've been aware of what you've been doing for a very long time.
Nicole (00:42)
Definitely. My blog just turned 16 earlier this month. So I've been
Ryan Ahn (00:44)
Wow. Incredible.
Nicole (00:46)
at it quite a while. But I started out just drinking regular grocery store tea bags with milk and sugar. And then when I went away to college, my classmates were drinking coffee. And I didn't like coffee at the time. So I started exploring different teas just to get through all nighters, writing papers. And I...
got really lucky because around that time I found a website that was looking for staff tea reviewers. So basically they would send me big bags of tea samples from all over the world and I would just write about them. So, you know, I was dorm room at the time, free stuff is great when you're in college.
Ryan Ahn (01:19)
Yeah.
Nicole (01:20)
And it was really just a super great early introduction to tea where for a lot of people it's a much more gradual exploration where I just had like everything but the kitchen sink thrown at me.
You know to write about but basically started my blog initially to back up the reviews. I was writing for them Eventually that site shut down. But by that time my blog had kind of taken on a life of its own
Ryan Ahn (01:44)
Yeah, it's such a great resource. And all
the interviews
Nicole (01:47)
Thank you.
Ryan Ahn (01:48)
that you've done over the years, it's a great compilation of knowledge. So I kept finding myself back there, especially in my early tea journey. Because I find it's, you write very excessively. Like it's, I think it's, whether or not you know a lot about tea or you're just getting into it, it's very easy just to pick up, will I like this tea? Or how can I build my preferences? Or like, what is matcha?
like those are important resources to have. So you've been in the game a really long time and you've seen probably a lot of evolution. So like to my knowledge looking backwards at how the matcha trend happened in the US, the general narrative that I've heard online and I've lived through kind of the early-ish parts of it when I was a tea person was that around 2013
14 and 15 is when things really started to blow up. And then before that there was matcha but it wasn't as popular. How is that evolution particularly in the US market evolved from your perspective?
Nicole (02:48)
Yeah, it's definitely, I would say when I first started my blog, matcha was something we heard about, but it wasn't something you would just find at your normal tea store. Finding a cha sen was like impossible.
Ryan Ahn (03:01)
wow.
Nicole (03:02)
If you went to Whole Foods, you might be able to find some matcha. The quality was not necessarily where I would think where it's accessible to get now, definitely.
It's definitely become just something that's gotten a lot more interest. find especially, looking back at my most popular blog post for the longest time was my review of Lipton Yellow label.
Ryan Ahn (03:27)
Okay, really?
Nicole (03:28)
But within the last five years, all of my most popular posts are to do with matcha. So like how to
Ryan Ahn (03:33)
whoa.
Nicole (03:34)
matcha without a whisk, just different things about matcha that that's basically what Google is sending me the most traffic.
which I think definitely shows the increased interest.
Ryan Ahn (03:44)
And at what point do you think general matcha awareness happened? Like where is that in the timeline?
Nicole (03:50)
Yeah, I think maybe kind of maybe around 2012 or so. think honestly, my first time having matcha was at Starbucks. And I think for a
Ryan Ahn (03:59)
Okay.
Nicole (03:59)
lot of people that was their introduction to matcha. know, now most coffee shops do offer matcha latte, but it definitely wasn't the norm back then. But
I definitely think that was kind of the start of it is just introducing people to that taste. Even if it did have a lot of sugar added, it's definitely like a different taste than I would say most Americans are used to.
Ryan Ahn (04:22)
And what point did you get the sense that like, you know, the specialty coffee scene really started adopting it onto their menu? Because like, in my consumer journey, I remember around 2017, maybe 2018, is when it really was like, whoa. And I was taking, you know, was like chanoyu teachers for traditional Japanese tea ceremony. And I remember that was a novelty to them. They were like, wow.
you go to New York, go to these coffee places, they have matcha. It was almost an unbelievable thought when it was getting some of their reactions. But when did you start really noticing it
the New York area?
Nicole (04:58)
Yeah,
I would say probably around 2018 or so. We definitely had like a boom of matcha cafes that just strictly did matcha, which were super popular. New York goes through these phases where it could be cupcakes, it could be anything, but just from Froyo,
Ryan Ahn (05:14)
Yeah.
Nicole (05:16)
you just get a ton of places opening up about one particular thing. And we did have a little bit of a matcha boom around that, that I think it really became.
part
of lifestyle for people where it hadn't really been.
Ryan Ahn (05:29)
That's a good way putting it. Definitely feels lifestyle, especially a lot of those earlier brands that were in New York. So something that we're very curious about in this podcast and like in my own like educational matcha journey is around product positioning for matcha and the way people can describe it with different levels of transparency or do more lifestyle branding versus more like hype beast branding or more like
deep in the weeds cultivar branding. Like at what point did you see matcha brands start branching away from like ceremonial grade and culinary grade as the only type of product classification into like single origin Okumadori for example.
Nicole (06:11)
would say only about five years ago or so, it definitely wasn't something that was known. know, like a Japanese tea vendor, like maybe Yunomi, had always had, you know, different cultivars, you know, but Yabukita is like the most widespread cultivar in Japan. So even that, like almost every matcha that was accessible was Yabukita. You know, it definitely,
Ryan Ahn (06:34)
Hmm.
Nicole (06:34)
I think it's only recently that
I think the market is a lot more interested in learning more about matcha and the different types of matcha. Matcha used to be just like a monolith, like it was one thing. And now
Ryan Ahn (06:48)
Yeah.
Nicole (06:49)
it's like there's so much more Connoisseurship to it, which is interesting. I found recently just the popularity of matcha, especially on TikTok.
is really, really fascinating to me because there's all these people suddenly talking about different cultivars and brands that I'm like, how did you find out about this?
Ryan Ahn (07:10)
At what point do you think that's going to start trickling down to like cafe or retail experiences? Because you have a handful of people, like you Kettle and a couple others, but like it feels like it's a slow trickle to see like a cafe offering the same level of transparency as they would a coffee, for example.
Nicole (07:28)
Yeah, I think it definitely is just a slow transition towards that. think just as the market demands change, coffee, that's definitely been there for a while, where they'll tell you where it came from and what variety of bean it is and how it was roasted and all these different micro information that say,
25, 30 years ago, really, you would just get a cup of coffee. You didn't know anything about it. So I think it's gonna take a while still for it to really trickle down to that level. But I do think that's gonna happen eventually.
Ryan Ahn (08:05)
Yeah. One thing I've noticed is that in the coffee scene, it seemed to trickle the other way where those like the blue bottle, intelligentsia, Stumptown experiences happened first at cafe and retail, which drove like consumer direct consumer interest. What's really interesting here, and maybe it's social media. don't know. Maybe it's the current environment that we're in. It's really seems to be going the other way where I think there is all this consumer demand for matcha that are developing relationships.
companies and getting educated online and then demanding that from their cafes. like, but coffee was really a push onto the consumer from the businesses, I feel. And the matcha really feels like a pull where they're like, want matcha, we want coffee alternatives. It'll be interesting to see like the comparison and how that evolves over the years.
Nicole (08:51)
I
think, you know, there's the standard of cafe matcha is definitely changing where, you know, you could get away with serving like a kind of terrible matcha for a long time, but that's not really, you know, possible anymore. I think the consumers are more knowledgeable about it that, you know, there's a coffee place by my job that stores their matcha in this glass jar.
where the whole outside of the jar is like gray from oxidation.
But I definitely like eavesdrop on when I'm there, I hear people being like, the matcha shouldn't be that color.
Ryan Ahn (09:26)
Yeah. Well, what I find optimistic is looking around at these cafes that serve much of this quality and just how many people love it. Like imagine
Nicole (09:36)
Absolutely.
Ryan Ahn (09:37)
what they would like if they tasted like the good stuff.
That makes me very optimistic. So pivoting topics a little bit. So a new trend that we see, and I'd say in the last one to two years, is influencer matchup, where we have all these matchup reviewers on the internet that have decided to either white label or do direct sourcing their own brands. So what's your take on influencer or reviewer matcha?
Nicole (10:01)
Yeah, it's definitely an interesting trend. It's fascinating because they all talk about using very high quality ceremonial grade, but often they're making lattes, which kind of defeats the purpose of using a very, very high quality matcha in a way. It's definitely very interesting. I think there's kind of a gap of knowledge where, you
I review tea too, so I get like just giving you our opinion. But especially for something like matcha, if that's all you're doing and you're basically people are turning to your videos for education, I think it's definitely important to really understand high quality matcha versus, you know, what they may have in their head as just a consumer. You know, it's
a catch 22 there.
Ryan Ahn (10:54)
Yeah. And I worry about bias. I think there's a lot of people who are very good actors, but there's like, the way I see it, there's like implicit and explicit bias. Like they could say explicitly like mine is the best and, you know, or bash on others. But, you know, most people wouldn't do this because everyone called them out for it, but you could do it really implicitly. Like I can't imagine any influencer who owns a matcha brand
ever saying they tasted a new sample and they like it more and it's at a better price than what they're selling. They would never say that. It's a gray area, think, more
Nicole (11:34)
Yeah.
Ryan Ahn (11:35)
out moral standing if you're like a tea reviewer. I don't know, like we're just starting to bring products to market. You know, we have a whisking bowl and we'll have other stuff. It's so hard bringing stuff to market.
And it's almost a little bit unfair to any of these brands who do their sourcing and are trying to sell stuff. It's like so hard to do that and to sit in that seat when you have a huge audience both selling and reviewing. It's an ethical dilemma, I think.
Nicole (12:03)
Yeah, absolutely. And reviewing other brands when you also own a brand is also kind of a, I think, a moral gray area in a way too.
Ryan Ahn (12:11)
So it will be interesting to see how that evolves. I don't think there's anything anyone can do to change it. There are a lot of small businesses out there, but I hope they don't get too affected.
Nicole (12:23)
Absolutely.
Ryan Ahn (12:24)
So
something actually we've talked about a little bit in the past, but we have a lot of people on this podcast that own matcha brands or tea companies or somehow involved in the industry. But could you give everyone a good framework? Because you are an influencer, you're a writer, you're an educator, you're a reviewer. What is the best way for industry people to interact with tea influencers and reviewers and educators?
Nicole (12:47)
I like just being like human. You know, one
Ryan Ahn (12:50)
Yeah.
Nicole (12:50)
of my favorite things is that just, you know, when somebody takes the time to just talk to me as a person, you know, that, you know, like one of my favorite examples is Lauren from Muzuba Tea, you know, right before she kind of launched, you know, I was at World Tea Expo and I get this DM on Instagram and it was like, I didn't even really recognize the username.
She was like, my God, I have to meet you. Meet me over here. And I was like, okay.
Ryan Ahn (13:19)
Hahaha
Nicole (13:20)
you know, I have this weird thing where I meet people from the internet for tea a lot. And my husband's always like, you're gonna get kidnapped.
Ryan Ahn (13:28)
Yeah.
Nicole (13:29)
But she just, you know, really, as soon as she knew I was at the Tea Expo, she made it a point to like reach out and have me meet up with her and really just to talk.
She didn't give me samples. She didn't do anything other than just like, I want to meet you. And we really developed a really great friendship from that. And I find that that's my favorite thing about tea is that it really does connect me with so many people all over the world. I have so many friends who are tea vendors now. But I think it's really the ones that really take the time to make connections are the ones that really stick in my mind.
Ryan Ahn (14:09)
OK, well, that makes sense.
So when it comes to t-education, there are completely independent sites like yours, and then there's a lot of vendor-driven education, where ultimately, right, it's some form of content marketing where they're trying to sell you something. And even, you know, as us as a match equipment company, we engage in that too. It's a great way to get SEO, it's a great way to put out opinions.
But where have you seen the best of tea education mixed with commercial interest? And where have you seen the worst, like, snake oil sales type? where would you draw the line between okay and not okay?
Nicole (14:48)
Yeah, that it is tough. I definitely there are some great vendor sites out there that, you know, if you have a question about tea and you just Google it, you know, there's some really great resources out there that I'll even use as, you know, sources when I write my blog posts. I definitely think the line for me comes down to health benefits, because I feel like that's kind of the one topic that, you know,
People love to make whatever their tea they're selling sound like the healthiest thing in the world that's gonna cure every ill, which definitely I think is not great for consumers. I don't drink tea because of the health benefits and there are definitely people who do, but I think you have to balance that and definitely.
make sure you're not towing the line into, you know, crossing the FDA or something like that, where, you know, there really are regulations in the RT companies that do get fined for overhyping health benefits, because they're not something that can be promoted in certain ways. And I think it's important for companies to be mindful of that, but also consumers that, you know, if a...
company
is telling you that tea is going to cure something, that's definitely kind of a red flag for me.
Ryan Ahn (16:05)
I totally agree. And seeing some of that over the years, it's really, you hate to see it. It's very painful. A lot of people just don't know any better. Like it's...
Nicole (16:16)
Yeah,
absolutely. Especially the weight loss things. Because
Ryan Ahn (16:19)
Yeah.
Nicole (16:20)
you really, preying on people's insecurities. And I
Ryan Ahn (16:23)
Yeah.
Nicole (16:24)
always say, I drink so much tea, I would disappear if it made you lose weight.
Ryan Ahn (16:27)
Same.
Nicole (16:28)
I still have to exercise like everyone else.
Ryan Ahn (16:31)
is definitely not a cure-all. I've noticed that too. When it comes to consumer tea education journey and pathways, people develop a passion for tea or develop a passion for matcha, I found that great retail experiences can really transform someone's perspective. And when I was in high school, I just loved going to the Philadelphia Tivana.
and how they would waft the tea in your face. was this big sensory experience and you could taste all these different things, pure or unblended. So like over the years, what have you discovered makes a really great consumer retail experience?
Nicole (17:08)
Absolutely. I worked at Tivana and that definitely was a really great experience that I think is missing from the marketplace somewhat. To really help people touch and see and smell the tea in a way like that that is super approachable. think, definitely I think matcha is something that I think part of the popularity is that it is
almost like a show when somebody's making matcha for you. Watching somebody
Ryan Ahn (17:38)
Yeah.
Nicole (17:40)
make matcha is, even if it's in a cafe setting, it's really a very different experience versus something else. I think it's kind of comparable to like pour over coffee being so popular. I think it's kind
Ryan Ahn (17:52)
Yeah.
Nicole (17:52)
of a similar, like, just more slow and meditative thing that I think that is part of why I think matcha has become so popular. There's a...
a chain of matcha cafes in New York called Matchaful. And every time I'm there, it's really cool to see people's reactions and they kind of just like zone out watching them whisk. I think it is really important to create those experiences for people because it's something memorable and it helps them connect more with tea.
Ryan Ahn (18:22)
Yeah, absolutely. And like even watching people look at a chasan and realize, well, this is made out of one piece of bamboo. And just, see the dots connect.
Nicole (18:33)
Absolutely.
Ryan Ahn (18:34)
So on any consumer journey, especially for like matcha or tea, like people will fall off. For example, like for Japanese tea ceremony, I would say I'm someone who fell off the bandwagon. I like it, I appreciated it, I studied it for two or three years, but I learned enough to realize, you know, this is not the path that I want to take. But same could be for like matcha or tea journey or any tea journey. So at what point do you...
Over the years, have you noticed that people fall off the bandwagon? Like, where are these, like, I'll call them opportunities for tea companies or tea educators to try to nudge people back into becoming a tea person versus saying, it's too much effort, I don't want to do it. Or some other reason why it's not part of their daily life.
Nicole (19:18)
Yeah, that's a tough one. I think one the industry has been trying to figure out for a while. I think part of it is accessibility. know, even now, you know, there's lots of things available online, but I can't walk into most stores in my area and find a good quality tea. So if you're somebody
Ryan Ahn (19:38)
Yeah.
Nicole (19:39)
who doesn't have, you know, the commitment to go and find different teas and continue to buy them online, have them shipped to your house,
You know, accessibility is definitely an issue. I think that's one that I think is probably the biggest. You know, I know, you we mentioned Tivana earlier, you know, it just was easy for people to, you know, when they were at the mall to just pop in and buy some tea, you know, and I think that that definitely makes it difficult for consumers. I think also just making it easy for them, you know, there's...
There's so many tools for making tea out there and gadgets and gizmos and different things.
Ryan Ahn (20:19)
Yeah.
Nicole (20:20)
But I think sometimes just making it really simple for people is the best way to make sure they're gonna continue to drink tea and make it part of their lifestyle. it has to become a whole thing, like I'm someone who I do enjoy Gong Fu tea. Do I do it every day? No, who has time for that?
Ryan Ahn (20:37)
Yeah
Nicole (20:38)
It definitely, I think...
Unless tea is firmly a part of your lifestyle, it is really difficult to maintain that.
Ryan Ahn (20:46)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Although I think as a tea community, sometimes the atmosphere online feels less inclusive when it comes to accessibility. And people say, I should not use these automated tools. But if it's the difference between someone doing it every day, it's a weird space because one, like, I guess like the like really hardcore tea people want people to move down a traditional path or a connoisseurship path and like,
really talk down on some of these automated tools or there's more watered down techniques. It's a weird thing because I think they want more tea people, tea people, but not everyone's destined for that.
Nicole (21:25)
Absolutely. I have a video I made of like a review and how to use the Breville automated tea maker, which has been, that thing's been around for like 15 years, but it's just a really simple, easy way to make tea.
like at least once a month I get a comment on that video being like, who needs this? It's not hard to make tea, you know?
Ryan Ahn (21:45)
Okay.
Nicole (21:46)
It just, I'm like, if it's not for you, that's fine. But there's definitely people who aren't gonna drink tea unless they can have something automated like that. That I think there's definitely space for that. know, especially as tea people, we tend to almost have like tunnel vision of, you know, the only tea we experience is the tea we like. And people who like the tea
Ryan Ahn (22:07)
Yeah.
Nicole (22:08)
we like. You know, if you're on the tea discord and you're, you know, doing lots of gung fu and you're on...
and you're sharing your tea, that's the only tea you're experiencing. But the rest of the world is doing tea in so many other different ways that I think it's good to keep perspective of that to keep you from having your tea point of view be too narrow.
Ryan Ahn (22:33)
Yeah, that makes sense. Where would you say some of the best online spaces are to be a part of a tea community?
Nicole (22:39)
Yeah,
the tea discord is definitely like a really nice one, I think. There's a ton of different people there and they talk about a lot of different things. I know Reddit gets a bad rap, but I think the tea subreddit is also, can be a really nice community. You you always get your one or two bad apples, but generally it's not too bad of a space, I think. Exactly,
Ryan Ahn (23:02)
If not nice, it's entertaining.
Nicole (23:05)
exactly.
Yeah, it's interesting as things evolve. When I first started my blog, Twitter was like the place. I actually started my Twitter account before I even started my blog. So the
Ryan Ahn (23:19)
whoa, okay.
Nicole (23:20)
name actually came from my Twitter account because I was just looking for people to talk about tea with And through that, I connected with people that I'm still friends with now, digitally.
Over time that changed. We had a really nice tea community on Google Plus when that was a thing.
Ryan Ahn (23:35)
OK.
Nicole (23:36)
I think Instagram is probably like the main place that tea is. think if you, you know, follow a few people that post about tea and you post about tea often enough, you're going to find a community there. There's definitely some really, really nice people. know, tea people generally tend to be really nice people in my experience.
you know, so I think especially if you're somebody who doesn't have a tea community where you are, I think Instagram is a really good place to, to post content and, and see other people talk about tea too.
Ryan Ahn (24:07)
Yeah, absolutely. I agree. really like Instagram for tea. Especially to see who's connected to everyone. That's always interesting. It's like, wow, that guy follows this person. And like, wow, like they must be, they must be like cool or good. Like you can discover the, like a social web.
Nicole (24:23)
Definitely.
Ryan Ahn (24:24)
So you're near New York City and you've written a lot about the New York City scene. So how have you seen that evolve for matcha over the past couple of years? Because now it's exciting. It's really cool the options are. But
how
Nicole (24:38)
Yeah.
Ryan Ahn (24:38)
has that evolved over the years? And where are some tea houses or cafes that you could recommend people go to to get different styles of cafe experiences for matcha?
Nicole (24:50)
Yeah, it's definitely been really cool to see. I know when I first started, there really weren't too many options for tea places, but now there definitely is. And super diverse, know, definitely when it comes to matcha, think kettle is kind of like the kind of pinnacle of that in the city. know, even just, love going to their flagship store in Brooklyn.
because they have the huge matcha grinder in the case going all the
Ryan Ahn (25:17)
Yeah.
Nicole (25:18)
time. And just seeing people who wander in seeing that, like it really blows their mind to see first of how long it takes to make matcha. Just watching that thing go, you know, but definitely like being able to sit down at the bar and talk to somebody about tea, you know, and even if it's like a matcha parfait, you know, but it, I think it's a really great way to introduce people to matcha.
in a way that's like not snobby, not unapproachable, but definitely I think still gives respect to the product and like where it comes from. I think that's important because there's definitely like some matcha places in the city that are a little bit more of like just aesthetic and there's really no connection at all to, you know, where matcha comes from. I think it's really important for
you places who sell matcha and serve it to, to honor Japan in that way. And so that's definitely, think kettle is really, really wonderful for that. I also really love Setsugeika. They're a wonderful, matcha place and, you know, to be able to, sit on a tatami mat and drink matcha from a chawan, in the middle of New York city is, is a really
experience.
Ryan Ahn (26:35)
Yeah, absolutely. I think they're the closest you can get to a tea ceremony
Nicole (26:39)
Absolutely.
Ryan Ahn (26:40)
in New York, but while still being like not overly formal.
I really like the intentionality there.
Nicole (26:46)
Absolutely.
Ryan Ahn (26:47)
They are unapologetically slow. And I really mean that as a compliment. They really, they do not rush. Everyone gets treated the same way, same intention,
Nicole (26:56)
Hmm
Ryan Ahn (26:57)
everything, they have their moves. It's
Nicole (26:59)
Yeah.
Ryan Ahn (27:00)
very almost, what's the word, meditative to watch them.
Nicole (27:03)
Absolutely. Sometimes I'll see people almost give like a bad review of it. And I'm like, that's the point. Yeah.
Ryan Ahn (27:10)
Yeah,
it's painful. Not everything's for everyone, but
Nicole (27:13)
Absolutely.
Ryan Ahn (27:14)
it's a nice contrast. And I could see how the average New Yorker would walk in and be like, wow, I'm not waiting 20 minutes. But like, that's kind of the point. Like that's why it's
Nicole (27:23)
Absolutely.
Ryan Ahn (27:24)
there.
Nicole (27:26)
Yeah, it's more of a destination.
Ryan Ahn (27:28)
Yeah, definitely a destination. Great location too. Cool. Well, you've also written a book that was recently published, I believe about a year ago. Is that
right? Yeah.
Nicole (27:36)
Yeah, yeah, right there. It came out in
2022. So it's a recipe book. Basically, my publisher wanted a book of tea recipes. It was kind of a bit of a battle to make it where it had the things I wanted to include, as well as everything they wanted to include. But there was definitely like lots of matcha recipes in there. I have like a way to make boba from scratch in your microwave. Yeah.
Ryan Ahn (28:02)
cool, I'll take
it back away. Nice.
Love it. That's cool. Actually, I wouldn't even imagine how...
Nicole (28:09)
Yeah, so most
recipes either use pre-made boba, which I was like, it's impossible to make a recipe that way because every brand is different. Most of the ones I tried were terrible. And then
Ryan Ahn (28:20)
Yeah.
Nicole (28:22)
most recipes made a huge batch and it doesn't stay good for very long. You really only have a couple hours to consume it before it's really just turned to mush. And so, you know, I...
really struggled with that because it was like, how do you make this recipe for like a glass of boba and then you still have all this leftover, just felt so wasteful. So I kind of
kept scaling back and scaling back and scaling back to where it was just enough boba for like two drinks. And so I think it's really helpful for people to, know, if they want to make boba at home, they don't want to, spend $10 on a drink every day.
It
just makes it really more fun and accessible, I think.
Ryan Ahn (29:02)
So I was at the Toronto Tea Festival where you presented that, I guess it was about a year ago or a little bit less, and you had a really interesting story about certain famous celebrities stealing a recipe from your book.
Nicole (29:15)
Yeah,
so
I had a recipe for matcha whipped cream, which is in the book. It's also just on my blog. was a recipe, which is what whipped cream is the easiest thing in the world to make at home. Really, the recipe is make whipped cream, throw some matcha in it. But Courtney Kardashian's website basically took my recipe and posted it on their site and made a video like a reel on Instagram with it. Didn't credit me,
Ryan Ahn (29:37)
wow, really? Okay.
Nicole (29:38)
didn't.
you know, in any way credit me for that. And so, you know, I had posted it on my Instagram and had lots of people go and comment to say like, hey, this is Nicole's recipe, you should give her credit. Eventually they did add credit. But when I asked to be compensated for them using my recipe, they just took the content down instead.
Ryan Ahn (29:59)
crazy. Yeah, I think it's a bigger problem in the tea world where like people use people's photos and videos and recipes and it's little shocking that like a celebrity would do that too, especially someone that high profile.
Nicole (30:13)
Yeah, I mean, I'm sure it was some intern that did it, know,
Ryan Ahn (30:16)
Yeah,
Nicole (30:17)
but...
Ryan Ahn (30:19)
yeah, crazy story. Cool.
So, you know, over the years, both being an educator and I'm sure someone who's also like a student of tea, where have you gone to expand your knowledge on matcha? And like where do you find that some of the sources are for like
the bleeding edge of matcha knowledge is like more of it gets in English, more of it is findable. Like where are some really good resources that you've discovered over the year apart from your blog where you've also built on your knowledge foundations?
Nicole (30:51)
Definitely, would say books are a huge resource for me. One of my favorites are, there's a couple of books that were written by Oscar Breckle, which are in both
Ryan Ahn (30:58)
yeah.
Nicole (30:59)
Japanese and English, which is really cool. But really, I feel like his books are about as close to the source as you can get in English. I think definitely for somebody who wants to learn more about Japanese tea, they're a great place to start.
Ryan Ahn (31:12)
Okay, I got one of them, I forget which one it was, but I found it very helpful. His, what do you call them? Like his infographics are really good. Like he was showing lineages of cultivars. I don't know if anyone sells them in the States though. Maybe you can get them
Nicole (31:27)
I don't.
Ryan Ahn (31:28)
online.
Nicole (31:28)
Yeah, for the most part, I've just ordered them through Amazon. But yeah, they're definitely
Ryan Ahn (31:33)
really? Okay.
Nicole (31:34)
a huge resource for me.
Ryan Ahn (31:36)
okay. I'll have to order the rest because I only have one, but I think there's a couple. So I picked them up on Amazon. And your book is available on Amazon as well?
Nicole (31:44)
Yeah, it is.
Ryan Ahn (31:45)
Awesome. Cool. So I guess there's one last question before we wrap up. How do you think the macha landscape is going to change in the next five to 10 years? How do you see it evolving from where we're at?
Nicole (32:00)
Yeah,
I think we're at an interesting time right now. In many ways, demand outsees supply. So I definitely see the Japanese tea industry kind of pivoting to that. Domestic consumption is down. And so I do think we're going to see a lot of people who were producing Sencha or other teas for domestic consumption in Japan are going to be changing over to matcha just because
there's customers out there. They may not be Japanese customers, but there's definitely demand for that product. So I do think we're gonna see a lot of that change over. I think we're at a really kind of a difficult time with Japanese tea industry, because they're definitely having a problem with farmers aging, not as many young people are wanting to take over, but it definitely, have not seen...
Interest in matcha be so high as it is now over the last 16 years Of me being involved in tea. So I think it'll be really interesting to see how things go from here
Ryan Ahn (33:00)
Yeah, and it really feels like it's only going to grow. So, you know, hopefully that the way the Japanese tea industry is structured, not too much culture is lost. the more, you know, past a certain point, the more tea you export, the less tea you have domestically.
Nicole (33:17)
Absolutely.
Ryan Ahn (33:18)
so it's an interesting, it's an interesting change. Do you think that the single origin, single cultivar thing is here to stay?
Or do you think that's just going to remain very, very specialty? Or do you think that's going to become more popular?
Nicole (33:31)
I think it's potentially going to become more popular. I don't think it's necessarily going to be super mainstream. But I think for people who make matcha at home, I think that's definitely going to be something I think that grows over time. One example is like cuzen matcha. They make like a machine that makes grinds, tencha into matcha.
And the number of people I see using that on TikTok, first of all, but they basically just released a whole collection of single cultivar Tencha, which it was like impossible to even get Tencha
when I first started. so it's really, I think that's interesting that you definitely have people at home that are like learning about different cultivars and...
grinding their own tencha which is really, I think, cool evolution.
Ryan Ahn (34:22)
Yeah,
that's wild. That would have been unthinkable when I started my tea journey 10 years ago. It's
Nicole (34:24)
Yeah, absolutely.
Ryan Ahn (34:28)
a really cool change. Have you had any of the flavored matcha where it's the purposeful application of flavors?
Nicole (34:36)
I haven't. they are very popular though. Like I know David's tea makes a ton of different flavors and they're really like super, super popular. I think it's a great way to make matcha a little bit more approachable for people. you know,
Ryan Ahn (34:49)
Yeah.
Nicole (34:49)
especially if they're just getting started, somebody, know, traditional Usucha or Koicha are intimidating when you're first getting started.
Ryan Ahn (34:57)
Yeah.
Nicole (34:58)
but like banana, marsh...
matcha lattes are not as scary. So I definitely think it's a good way to help people get their feet.
Ryan Ahn (35:05)
Yeah, especially because even the vocab when you're first getting into tea, usucha koicha, and
Nicole (35:11)
Hmm.
Ryan Ahn (35:11)
all these traditional companies with these very complicated names, like they're just, I can't even pronounce, like even some of the big companies, I feel like I can't pronounce their name. Just like, I'm an industry person. I'm slowly learning, but I really have a lot of trouble with it. So I can't imagine how like people who are just dipping their toe in the water, trying to like pronounce a lot of these and then remember them.
So I think it's a big problem. And I think that's a nice change is that you have all these new vendors come in with names that people can remember or relate to in some way. Whether or not it's the flavored tea or like, I don't know, Rocky Matcha or Johnny Matcha. Like they have really approachable names and very good brand identity to remember. I think like without that, I'm worried how much it can grow in the States.
Nicole (36:00)
Yeah, absolutely. I do think it's super interesting that a lot of Japanese brands have become so popular that they can't even keep up.
Ryan Ahn (36:11)
Yeah, that's wild.
Nicole (36:13)
Yeah, I keep looking at Sazen Tea's update page. Somehow they've become the main vendor of choice for a lot of this. the number of brands that they're like, there's just no matcha until next June, which is crazy.
Ryan Ahn (36:27)
It's
crazy.
Yeah, no, it's the shortages are real
Nicole (36:33)
It's interesting
because I feel like no one in the industry is talking about it. I posted on my Facebook just for, I'm friends with a lot of tea vendors on there. And so I was just like, and they're all like, I have matcha, what are you talking about? And it's like, it's not that you can't get matcha, but there's definitely a lot of brands that are just impossible to get right now, which is really an interesting development.
Ryan Ahn (36:58)
Yeah, I think from an awareness perspective, maybe it was just very winner take all. People had
Nicole (37:03)
Mm-hmm.
Ryan Ahn (37:03)
heard of them, they found great value, they repeat purchase. So hopefully, my hope is that it drives consumers into a state of exploration, try out new
Nicole (37:11)
I think it was.
Ryan Ahn (37:11)
vendors and gives other people more market share. Either that or prices are gonna go up, but hopefully that doesn't happen too much.
Nicole (37:17)
Yeah, hopefully not.
Ryan Ahn (37:19)
Or both, I don't know. Yeah, much is expensive enough.
Nicole (37:22)
Exactly.
Ryan Ahn (37:24)
especially being such a perishable product. Yeah. Well, anyway, it's a great note to end on. So thank you so much for your time and for coming on. We really appreciate it.
Nicole (37:32)
Yeah, thanks so much for me.
Ryan Ahn (37:34)
And if any of the listeners enjoyed this, please consider giving us five stars. Follow Nicole at Tea For Me Please across various platforms. Check out her YouTube. Her husband Tea Torture is very entertaining. Great series.
And especially like getting a reaction of someone who's not really a tea person, try something like matcha. If you really are a tea person seeing that, kind of re-remember, wow, like not everyone likes tea. So it's a refreshing
Nicole (38:00)
Yeah, yeah.
Ryan Ahn (38:02)
perspective.
Nicole (38:04)
Yeah, he came to me to world with me to world to be world to expo a few years ago, and he's so not a tea person. He was just there to carry my stuff, really. But, you know, he we were at a booth and he like declined a sample and someone called him a tea hater. He
Ryan Ahn (38:21)
Yeah
Nicole (38:22)
was like, I'm not a tea hater. And then he just started chugging everything that was given to him, including matcha.
Ryan Ahn (38:27)
Yeah.
Nicole (38:28)
And so that's kind of where the idea came from that, you we were like, why don't we just do that at home and have you try different things? his responses are always really funny.
Ryan Ahn (38:37)
Yeah, very funny. Well, it's important to get everyone's preferences, whether they like or dislike something. And you know, I think that's the thing. There's just not enough people out there saying, I don't like this in a really honest and open minded way.
Nicole (38:51)
Absolutely.
Ryan Ahn (38:51)
Well, anyway, thank you so much. And dear listener, we'll see you on the next one. Thanks.
