Visiting Shirakawa Uji with Koto Tea Space

Ryan · 0:06

Hello and welcome to Specialty Matcha Podcast. My name is Ryan. This is my co-host Zongjun who also goes by Sam. Hello. Hello. And we're the cofounders of Sanko Match Products. Yeah, we launched this podcast to discuss a learning journey and matcha share startup stories and interview experts. And today here sitting with us are Yoske, Sam and Kunpa from Kodo T Space.

Ryan · 0:26

Welcome guys. Thank you for the invitation. Awesome. Thank you so much for coming. Just to give our listeners context, we're recording this here in Kyoto. We just left Fuji and they were so kind as to invite us to go visit Suji San in Shirakawa Wuji, and we learned a lot today.

Zongjun · 0:43

So what were some of your biggest impressions and learnings from today's visit? For SAT OK, Miss San, you know I used to meet us to sound like a several times already, but that whenever meet at Suji San, no topic is deep and deep.

Ryan · 0:57

We learn more. But this that you know that even deeper. So this that you know more giving them more difficult level. Yeah. So today's a more deepest topic. You guys go like way back, right? You and Sujisan know each other for a long time, almost five years. How did I start originally?

Zongjun · 1:18

Like how do you meet Sujisan? OK, so originally I was like exploring matcha and then I came across like buying his matcha. You know like before that I think we we were drinking some sort of like a blended or the branded matcha.

Zongjun · 1:35

We were like, yeah, matcha tastes quite nice. And then after after that can of Suzuki Matcha, it changed forever. This was your aha moment. Yeah, that was aha moment. Like, oh, so much. I can taste like this. This is like nothing I've had before. Like it's very clear and the characters and something like very new to me.

Zongjun · 1:55

And then I looked at like, there's a producer name in the can. Like I told you, please contact this producer. I'm not sure how much we can buy. It's going to be expensive, but we we, we need to and I feel very impressed.

Zongjun · 2:07

And then, you know, at that time, you know, the parcel just came from abroad. And then I opened to eat. That was like 10:00 PM but it's so delicious that I finished like tasting 4 cultivars and I couldn't sleep that night.

Zongjun · 2:21

I can message you get please contact this sushi key next day. I need it. So my so bad, so good. Yeah. That's like that goes on there like afterwards we just keep. Original story. And after having visited there in person, it's our first time that you can really taste why it's so good.

Ryan · 2:39

Like I didn't realize that you could talk, I guess, for we were in the fields. I think the only topic was fertilizers. And you guys said we went 10% deep, which to us we learned so much maybe. Not even 10%, Yeah, 10%. Only a fertilizer of the specific months, right? Was a control.

Yosuke · 2:56

In the fertilizer for four years, so much is not just the fertilization, but the shading processing. Oh, it's mean, Yeah. I think less than 10%. Tip of the iceberg, just the level of sophistication and complexity just around fertilization under or odor over fertilized and like what that does to the plant you I think you mentioned that there's some type of fertil I think is rapeseed oil by product produces gas in the soil, which like damages the tea plants. Like that's just the things that you don't hear people talking about.

Yosuke · 3:28

Imagine that root of the tea plant, this one already proved in the science, but this one contribute a good taste. Oh really? Yeah, but you know tea plant is a weaker so need a more like a control. Okay, okay. Do you supplement that with some other material, like if that weakens the tea plant?

Yosuke · 3:44

But it does provide like good flavor. Supplement I mean. Like do you add some other fertilizer to kind of help the tea plant? Of course fish meal. I also like the famous fish meal Rapsee meal famous because of this one called the high nitrogen. Nitrogen is the material of the like a glutamic acid or theanine.

Yosuke · 4:06

And so other thing is like a soy meal is also one like us, yeah. So the soybean meal is also protein made of protein, yeah. So and also other something, yeah. This also get meat like scratch of the meat, meat fertilizer.

Yosuke · 4:20

OK. Yeah, maybe like a meat processing meat factory and then maybe left or tend to be a fertilizer, this one also. Work or beef? Or chicken, Not sure, but this one also makes sense because they're made of protein in the to decompose into the amino acid to the nitrogen and become a first nicer.

Zongjun · 4:36

Wow, the tea plant really eats like human too. Yeah. So I don't believe the big indirectly the fish this. Is sounds like a chef. One of the questions that was asked during the trip, too, is like how the fertilizer methods changed over the years.

Ryan · 4:52

And it was something that was very striking to me. It's just how much globalism has affected the tea industry. And it's probably unthinkable to Suji Son's grandfather that he's importing fish from Brazil or soybeans that are from the States. And it's actually all very interconnected and that these things are fluid.

Zongjun · 5:11

There is no traditional way to fertilize now. There's just so many more options. And it's really encouraging to hear how, like, it was so important to Suji Son to constantly move the ball forward and innovate and like really do the best thing that he can do to make the best tea he can with the materials that he has access to. That access has changed over the years. It was pretty fascinating to me, which is. Quite a unconventional kind of activities that he's doing, you know, in terms of, you know, how people do farming, say Uji, right?

Yosuke · 5:42

Yeah, he has a very deep knowledge about agriculture and also one might make me surprise the most is she know that it's called condition of soil of the each spot, right? He already submit the condition of the soil to the blah blah tree and they get the data and based on the data of the soil he know how to treat the tree. Interesting.

Zongjun · 6:03

One of the things that was very interesting is that there are certain minerals in the soil that kind of things, manganese. Can you like share a little bit about what manganese do to tea plants? Manganese according to the tradition tree with manganese, tea tree like to absorb the manganese and they grow well.

Yosuke · 6:19

Tea plant is healthy but doesn't contribute the good taste of the tea. Doesn't contribute good taste. And they're also talking with a tradition like the other time, he said. The soil with a lot of manganese, the fertilizer is less effective.

Zongjun · 6:31

So I need to maybe need to give them more fertilizer or other method to make it effective. Interesting and I kind of miss part of conversation but did he say like adding more iron or some kind of mineral will help the tea tree?

Yosuke · 6:44

I'm sorry you're talking about the manganese. Yeah, yeah, yeah. OK. Manganese I think connect. So it goes through. It's kind of, you know, I say conflict with iron conflicts. Yeah, Yeah. So I mean that more manganese is some negative effect of the iron and absorption that tree.

Zongjun · 7:02

I think, Oh, interesting. Oh, OK. Because he was talking about part of the soil in the garden is very iron. Rich yeah, this one is AI think I need some like a knowledge of the agriculture because some you know, you know, giving more is not always right way for the cultivation. I mean some mineral too much might have a negative effect of the absorption of the other mineral. OK.

Ryan · 7:24

Yeah. So cultivation balancing, Yeah. So there's no only one right method. It seems like a lot of things that are healthy for the tea plant don't necessarily equate to delicious matcha. And then it's just a huge balancing act because it was a big take away. Yeah, yeah.

Koto · 7:40

And so I mean, we already noticed that Suzuki Matcha is a not the best way for the healthy tea plant. They are actually all fitted and there's a signal plant is a stick because of the too much for tonight and the root is damaged. Yeah, that was interesting, seeing the plant damage where there was some yellowing in the tips and he says it's directly connected to the roots.

Ryan · 7:59

And then your translation, or I don't know if it's your summary, your translation, but the tea plant eats too much too quickly but didn't digest. It's very funny. I wrote that as a quote in my notebook. So that really. Plant is a kind of obesity in the old time like article of the he wants to make a foie gras of the farm. Oh, foie gras, that's an excellent comparison actually to matcha.

Koto · 8:27

You really think about it. Yeah, because of all the intense fertilizations were really where all the flavor and quality is coming from. Shoveling down all the wine to those geese in the. Farm, yeah. So firstly, no activists claim about right of Latif plant.

Ryan · 8:41

The other interesting practice is that they don't like older trees and that they replace them every 20 years. It seems like a practice that I've we've never heard of, like it's a crazy standard. What what are some of the reasons why they replace them so often?

Koto · 8:55

I think if the tea plant is older absorption the nutrition, the less the taste can be shallower. So I think in the theory around the 20 year is a peak mean 10 to 20 years a peak of the tea tree 8 but it's a more like a burden to like a renewal of the tea tree because tea tree grow the roots quite deep and they pull out it's quite quite hard.

Koto · 9:17

So and also so considering the like cost of the renewal, I think to optimize the economic other like a business they normally like a keep like a run in the same key field like 40 years or 60 years or even longer. That's more of a cost saving. It's a crazy commitment to to I lost the word. So talking with them is theoretically right, but no other people does.

Ryan · 9:41

Oh, really? What like what's the kind of like the, the norm in Uji? Like what's the average cadence of, you know, Bush management in Uji to? Replace them. To replace them because like Sri Sant does it for 20 years. What?

Koto · 9:55

What about the other? People I haven't visited so much like Tanja TPO like in Uji in around our like partner not visiting the some like a partner in the other prefecture. Sometimes they run the tea more than 50 years. More than 60. Years but you know management different this kind of producer more like care the health of the tea tree you know the three sound style over fertilized so quite a lot of damage and stress so deteriorate tea plant is faster interesting yeah so therefore I tell you like 3 centuries like Olympic athlete or like a bodybuilders.

Koto · 10:32

Bodybuilders. A lot of stress and burden to the body so that cannot like a last like a so long. You well, you can definitely taste the strength in the in the tea. Yeah, it's a really, really virgin. Powerful and refreshing yes.

Ryan · 10:45

It's like a well managed, even like a high quality matcha tea plant like survived like a more than 50 years. So there were a lot of other people that were visited the farm and I think it was almost the entire group flew to Japan specifically to see this. So what was sort of the impetus to arrange and organize this visit?

Zongjun · 11:06

So last time we visited Sodisang, we also discussed about it as well, like how like the market is changing stuff. So he actually want like people to, to have more like knowledge about like what's like, how like Uji tea is cultivated and also how like he's taking care of like his tea plans and how with his knowledge, with his skills, he wants to share with the peoples who love the tea and who's the enthusiastic as our B2B customers too. So yeah, that's that's how we were discussing. So he said like, maybe we could open some like educational session and well, when he's free, especially like around like February, we can arrange

Zongjun · 11:51

some like a farm visit. He's willing to like, share his knowledge with us. So actually we are quite very surprised because we never arranged this kind of things before. And yeah, I think he, he really feel like he wants to, you know, share to the people.

Koto · 12:07

Other perception from me. So I also met with pop and around autumn light my last time. And so it's I mean, you know, matcha bubble is a little like slow down or settle, like, you know, globally. And then before that, it's also quite busy because of many, many like people talk about Horii and like a marketed hype.

Koto · 12:28

But for the original like concept of Horii is a more like people enjoy authentic matcha. But you know, in the matcha boom and Horii is busy and they cannot like guide his tea farm or too much traffic or like too busy to manage like sales.

Koto · 12:44

But so instead other people visit other tea field and for three times I this mine is not authentic once. You set the record straight. So these are very stressful and so like people promote other people. This is like it was your matcha. This is the authentic matcha feel. So either she's a craft man, she's not like working for the business she won.

Ryan · 13:08

You know, many people like happy because at this point a very good. Matcha he wants to make a statement. Well, he also has, I don't know if it's obligation is the right word, but he's one. I think he's the most awarded matcha farmer in Japan.

Zongjun · 13:21

I think like he's the only matcha producer to have the Prime Minister award. So like, it's a big reputation to carry. Emperor Award. Emperor Award. Sorry. And the name and the the person GIF is Prime Minister Shinzo Abe, right? It's crazy have that kind of recognition and the lead and set standards.

Koto · 13:42

It was just award of different, you know, awards being hanged on his ball. In the win of the competition of the year. Yeah, yeah, it's quite crazy. I recognize one of the award was signed by Ishiba, okay, previous Prime Minister.

Ryan · 13:57

But at the time he was still the Ministry of Agriculture. But that was very interesting. That was crazy. Insane number of awards and just seeing the craft and the way he was talking about it is you understand why and how.

Zongjun · 14:11

So like therefore, like we though they get hearing that she sounds like, you know, stress or like some needs. So we suggest. So how about like we arranging like a tour or a meeting and and your free time is like a winter time because the tea is not so moving.

Zongjun · 14:30

And so they say like they can make time and we contact like our like a regular customer, loyal customer of the Horii and each person and like arrange this time like a meet up. Yeah, and I arranged like who's coming. I see that you guys want to learn more about the tea and I really think that like you guys will benefit and also learn a lot from like a meeting Horii-san and you've been wanted to meet him. Yes, that was that was when you messaged me. I was like, wow, we.

Koto · 14:59

Have to do it. I'm not going to be anywhere in Asia, but we have to come. Also like this is a other word from my teacher of the Japanese tea, he also got the highest quality of the central deal and he said from the top of the mountain you can see the bottom, but from the middle of the mountain cannot see the top. So for me that's the question is around the top of the mountain of the matcha.

Ryan · 15:22

So from the top you can see how much compromisation or like quality and readable to the price. Yeah, yeah. So how is like, you guys have one of the most beautiful tea spaces in Bangkok and you've been sourcing Horii-san's tea now for six years.

Ryan · 15:39

How has like consumer perception changed? Was it difficult to sell it first? Like how much consumer education do you need to do to kind of build up demand for this level of excellence in matcha to get people willing to pay for it and try it and become repeat customers? Yeah.

Koto · 15:56

So initially when we start selling, it was quite something because most of at that time the matcha like industry in Thailand still like mostly drink matcha latte and many people still have like, you know, the cheap like bakery matcha.

Zongjun · 16:12

And then I feel like, well, we have a Horii-san's matcha. One thing in order to like sell his tea and like make people understand his tea is to like for education. So we start like tea workshops and a tea testing and then eventually we open quarter tea space and then we offer like a walk in or like a tea bar, coffee menus that people can come in and actually can drink usucha like using Horii-san's matcha as like our standard and also the ice matcha because sometimes people are still not really ready for like usucha yet. So moving from like latte to gradually ice matcha and then moving to like usucha or koicha.

Zongjun · 16:54

So our Cafe, our place, Koto tea space, always never we stand for this policy. Never serve matcha latte. So from the start, some people just walk out right away and there's no latte. But then some people maybe they feel awkward. They don't want to turn away because they already reserved. But the misunderstand maybe.

Zongjun · 17:14

And then I just say, just say open your mind and then like, try this ice matcha. I'm sure it's not bitter or astringent. And then we tried like a brewing in a way that is like we serve, we call what we call matcha on the rock. And this one we serve is slightly thicker. I'm sure you're.

Zongjun · 17:31

Had it and. Well, most of the people who had like that menu with a Horii-san's matcha, especially Uji Hikari, is that this is like a, you put milk in there or like it's quite very silky or sweet. From that moment we start educating them that actually matcha doesn't need to be like so bitter or astringent. So that was like one of the first to let them try and open their mind for this tea.

Zongjun · 17:56

And afterwards they start like, you know, the word of mouth everything. We don't push too hard about it. We want people to gradually learn and like came into liking experience. So gradually lately nowadays, so more market is developed more education on a consumer and more people like wants to seek for like higher grades and better grades. So yeah, we we gradually have like a more regular customers and like new customers as well coming in. Yeah, I think like high grade matcha is like now quite value and sought after.

Ryan · 18:29

I remember one of my first times going into Chaseki, I think it was in 2022, maybe it was in 2023, on a trip to Bangkok. I was sitting next to someone who I think she was a tourist, she was just traveling and came in. I don't think she really know what she was expecting and she tried the matcha on the rocks and just like seeing her reaction, it's like how different it was probably from her expectations, how good it was. That was positive.

Ryan · 18:57

Oh, it's positive. Very. Positive. OK. Just making sure. It was, but it was interesting because I was already kind of like the idea on the back of my mind that I wanted to work in matcha and just seeing that reaction on someone's face for a great product for the first time, let alone like having Suji Sansti and like as what she was probably a complete beginner and just seeing just wow, this did not meet my expectations at all for a good matcha taste like in the most positive way. You just have some of the most insane staff. I don't know how to call it, staff education, staff education programs that I've ever, ever

Ryan · 19:31

seeing. Team training is absolutely crazy. Like every time you guys post about it, I take screenshots sometimes like I need to find this graph. So how did that start and what is the program and how do you, because when you go in there and talk to the staff, I feel like every time I order a tea, I just need to start taking notes for like everything that I'm learning about it. Like whether or not it's a certain cultivar, certain brewing method, methodology.

Zongjun · 19:59

Like, you guys go really deep, like way deeper than I've ever seen in the tea experience space. So I think I start the team training like beginning of the previous year. So about the knowledge side, they mainly take care because I'm a native Japanese and can access the Japanese contents. I also can talk the Japanese producer or like some master deeply and they translate into the, you know, English knowledge to the our stuff in English.

Zongjun · 20:29

And if they didn't have some of the time chance to share the knowledge, there is a gap of the knowledge of me or other stuff like working for the couple, there is a so not so much. So it's kind of like a like a waste of the like opportunity.

Zongjun · 20:43

And so and how to do it. I mean, just like some part of our like a working time, like make the fix time as a team training and they share the something whatever randomly. There is some basic education of the team as a team, but more advanced like at some level. We still don't teach in the for the customer yet. So I mean, you know what the customer demand is normally, how to brew matcha, how to like what kind type of Japanese tea or like different grading, but this. But you know, if you teach something, your knowledge should be more than that.

Ryan · 21:18

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is like you always say that the tea masters in Japan, they only share 10% of what they know. And then the other thing you should notice. Otherwise, they don't stop talking. There is Zen way of learning.

Zongjun · 21:33

Therefore, like the more you learn and then notice and talk to this time, this time the tourism become like a serious. Like take you guys to a roller coaster. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. We got really specific very fast. That was very interesting. Actually.

Ryan · 21:49

I have a question for you. Use Kisan. The common perception of like macho tea culture in Japan is not something that you would associate with like the younger generation. How is it as a younger generation, you know, of this nation?

Zongjun · 22:03

Like how do you engage with the this culture and how like do do you kind of like react with with learning this in this new era in? Europe about younger generation, I think there are some like a new trend in the tea ceremony, for example, like a tea ceremony like a traditional like a way of like enjoying the matcha average age of the key people is quite old. Seeing the Instagram, many like a young team master around my age or even younger.

Zongjun · 22:33

And these kind of people share the more like I knowledge or showing the creativity and some people follow it. So I think some like already has some of the seed is already spread. And yeah, also about the Thailand, how do they react? Mean the for me, the I'm based on the Thailand. So so it's quite nice to implant the concept of the Japanese culture.

Ryan · 22:56

And then matcha is just one media and drinking as a beverage and knowing the depths of the Japanese culture through the matcha is a put the different level. So do you see like the like tea culture or matcha culture being like more and more popular within Japan nowadays?

Zongjun · 23:11

I'm not sure about the tea culture in Japan, but I think going to be popular in the goodness of the tea culture is something like a similarity of something like a spirituality of the Japanese people, something readable to them, Buddhism and also Shintoism, and also like feeling the connection to the nature. Let's find out what the Japanese people like from the old time. And then of course, people just working for the company and they stay in the city.

Zongjun · 23:38

They're quite like a boring, they're very stressful, but like a some, I know some like a matcha seller who like drop off the company and start a matcha business. And the reason why they started that they Start learning the tea ceremony from tea ceremony. Yeah.

Zongjun · 23:51

Feeling something like a goodness of the like a slowness of slow, slow life or something like some be that stay and calm and drink tea and it reflect yourself. So I think this kind of thing is a concept, like I said, demanded and it's mean. So like people used to like a seek for the money or like a gross economy.

Zongjun · 24:13

But of course, like there's a always sitting I mean, and of course people need to find something like a meaning of the life without growth of the economy or they even like economies that grow stable. What you are like working for like a living for and then tea ceremony or like a making and drinking tea or something, do something, treat the people well. Is that even like generating the money? This one also like a value for the people. So I think the tea ceremony or like a Japanese like a classic way of the thinking is very helpful so that I don't want to say the sustainability, but can continue. Actually people are busy for

Zongjun · 24:50

like, you know, doing these kind of traditional things, tea ceremony, how much your time you spend and this one cannot make a profit, but the people like to do. Yeah, it's not a about the intention of making profit the the intention of doing things right.

Zongjun · 25:04

Enriching one's life. Yeah, yeah. So enrichment of the kind of mind is also getting more important. Very wow, that was well said. How do you guys get into tea in the 1st place? Like do you guys always like tea? Why? Why Japanese tea for example?

Ryan · 25:20

Like, oh, pop first. I was involved. OK, OK, I see. I see. I dragged him into it. Oh my God, when, when I met him like eight years ago, nine years ago, we, we just, you know, let's go hang out somewhere. He brought me to like Ippodo and then I was like, oh, I ordered gyokuro and I was like quite into Chinese tea before like I went to Yunnan and then I feel like, well, the tea is quite like amazing plants.

Ryan · 25:48

If you revitalize you rejuvenate it and stuff, right. But like until like I come for like internship in Osaka. I met him and then we went to Ippodo. I ordered gyokuro. Then there's a lot of cups coming and I was, I was like, why do you need so many cups?

26:04

I'm like one cup for one person. And then the staff just came and then explain and then like you need to like, you know, use the lower, lower temperature. And I was like, that doesn't happen with Chinese tea before. It takes so much time.

26:21

You got to wait 3 minutes, 4 minutes. I keep waiting and then, you know, like I, I'm quite like, have a soft spot for like a Japanese culture and also like all the small things and like many like, like rituals of doing things. And I I found that I gradually fell in love with the process. So the why I'm involving is no like a hop, like a start, like a contact in the tea producer.

26:45

I start to I communicate with them and they, you know, I didn't have any knowledge at the time, but a little quite difficult to talk or like, it's a little shameful. Like I don't know anything about the tea so learning and also so pop also found the Japanese instructor because at the time there's no authority of the Japanese tea in Bangkok or Thailand. But in the long run, it's better to have some authority or some knowledge, like a foundation of the knowledge because in case Japanese professional come to Thailand and this like a need to be the same level.

27:17

So and so like applied Japanese instructor also if it is in the tea producer or tea farmer with pop and actually I'm like a good at like a accumulating knowledge or like I like to learn something and connect the dot and many knowledge connect.

27:33

So you can you know, the deeper or that you feel like some relationship. The pop talk about the one that meeting the one like our like a teacher of the like a teaching merchant. You know, Japanese of knowledge in Japan is extreme. For example, there's a Japanese instructor license or the certificate in Japan.

27:51

This one people recognize as a semi professional. If you pass this examination, you know the basic comprehensively, but in Japan there's so many professional already beyond this level. Yeah, so so it's mean that for me the like based on this like a Bay Foundation, the people keep seeking their speciality like more than the 1020 years.

28:13

So and they met this kind of person and in Fukuoka in some pop up store and he said the Japanese, especially leafy and like some like Quso, we just ask, I just can't really ask the question about the Quso, about the speciality.

28:27

His answer is 10 minutes. More than 10 minutes and he start talking about geology of the like a location. He's like a walking encyclopedia these days. Ask one question. About some like clay soil that that area this one this area not familiar for me.

28:40

So my like I try to get catch up with him and try to translate anyway or like, you know, this can master you to keep with them. You, you know, level up to your knowledge. If like I said, didn't progress, they they can see through. So it's like a progression technique, like where you have to like, I don't give certain signals or certain, you have to communicate that you have a certain level of understanding to kind of unlock the next level. Yeah, yeah.

29:06

Of knowledge. Actually, I, I met these kind of people who has a huge knowledge and they this one, these kind of people. Don't worry not that in the public normally like these kind of people, it's kind of brain or like a fixer of the behind of industry.

29:20

OK, then they kindly gives us some knowledge and but they they must know the differ. But if you how much you can get the knowledge from them is up to your level. What suggestions do you have? Because we've noticed this across, not even unique to Japanese tea, but even Chinese tea or in Korea, like you kind of have to unlock information from people like you need to. Demonstrate your level first.

29:47

Before people open and like figure out how to talk, even talk to you and actually even too, I'm sure a Sanko tea space when a new customer walks in, you have no idea at first if they are like how knowledgeable they are, they expert or they don't even know that matcha's from Japan.

30:03

Like so how do you identify where someone's AT? And then how do you kind of come up with strategies to meet them where they're at, whether or not they're below you or above you? This one is more like a service at the front, right?

30:14

Yeah. So nowadays I mostly take care of B2B customers and sometimes I retail customer come in as well or mostly our regular customers. So when a customer come or like new customer, whether they how much they have the experience outside, they just come and then they look at the T list and then I just gonna ask what you want to drink.

30:36

And they just like ask something like in our list or like for example. Well, I wanna try like a Suzuki summit or something because I've tried this culture or something before. And so at least I know that they have like level of maybe they try like mini teas already, but gradually also depends on how like they ask like how is this like harvested or like what kind of season is this or how like how do you describe the different of this?

31:06

Or some people even like want to kind of like, well, I drank this tea before the composition grade and stuff. Do you have anything better than that? I'm like, I'll make like, I'm not sure but. You're looking for a fight. I'm not sure about that, but well, we have a single cultivar matcha, so you can try like it's a different style. So let's let's discuss about that. It's very flexible, yeah.

31:33

And to to get the Flexibility Foundation notice. So I mean, whatever question come we can reply. Yeah, yeah, in the many direction and talking about better than this like producers are quite difficult to talk. And also in that quite awkward if talk in the photo obviously, right. So I mean that if and especially if you know that about the effort of producer or craftiness of producer deeper, there's no like, you know, better, there's no better or worse. Both excellent, but can be slight difference. It's kind of like a #1 and #2 Olympic player. They also extend the top of the country with a score, the competition judged by the

32:12

professional one to two different. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's something like when people serve the tea, I'm pretty sure like Chinese tea as well. They serve you the tea and just want to see your reaction. Oh. Yeah, yeah.

32:23

That happens all the time and depends on their reaction of the IT would dictate what tea they will put out next. I'll just serve my cobra tea from like Cheese rock or something and I don't say anything. Yeah, let's see what they. Do of the taste flavor is quite personal and some person very high like out of bounds palette and then like I recommend many variety of flavor, but some people actually cannot recognize and then if like a reaction reaction on the first person, no what kind of taste the tea they like or like they understand even farther or not.

32:56

Interesting. This is kind of like a Omaka say like. Yeah, kind of like Omaka say. I want to drink matcha so kind of like get some information 1st and like maybe you like this one. Interesting. So what you guys have talked to a lot of different producers from different region in Japan, Like what? What do you see the difference of, you know, interact with them and like what do they care the most about? Like for example like Uji versus Pseudo or places like Yame? I think it depends on the producer. Yeah, there's a top to the bottom of the producer and seeing the how much they know about the tea or seeing the tea field or like management or tea

33:34

factory can see the level. So normally the excellent producer like a level like a can won the competition and doesn't mean that always national competition, but the competition prefecture. They are management excellent see the tea field very beautiful like a like a the lines are quite or some like there's no like defects mean that there's no like a damage or sick or like insect bites or something or teas are quite nutritious. These kind of people.

34:00

Any type of tea is tasty. Any type means that even like a handpick or like a mushing harvest also better quality for the price and something that produce the food are not serious. Like I mean when we talk this kind of level, that same level of that question to most of the projects cannot answer. So if you ask a very, very specific question. Just like or just like a pause or some like question and see the response and we can know how they know and if they talk about like an organic or like a nature or something like an artistic things they don't know.

34:38

Anything. Yeah, they should be sending the soil sample to a lab instead of guessing. Actually most like advanced people, even they looks not this, but they are also like a scientist. Yeah, that was a great Suji Sung quote that I wrote down.

34:51

He said, I think you cannot make great matcha without science. That was very interesting because all of this matcha marketing that you see all over the place, it's all about authentic and traditional. And here we have one of the most we're going to, we're going to send all our soil samples to a lab at an enormous cost. He told us the price and it was like. A credible he does like a spot TV from the spot and send the lab and take down.

35:17

Yeah, active amino acid content measuring. A few leaves cost like ¥5000 or something 500,000 yen 500,000. Yen. Yeah. Huge. Yeah. Serious dedication to quality. Yeah. And also the timing of the fertilizer, how he monitors these plants all the time. Yeah.

Koto · 35:33

Yeah. And it's not like he just fertilizes. It's like he needs to communicate with the plant to understand what it needs in any given moment. So like my question like next day that to do some meet up I want to ask what the difference of the yesterday and today? Great idea.

Ryan · 35:51

Talking there 5 minutes. Interesting. So you guys are really on the forefront of knowledge within Matcha just in general in the industry. Like every time I talk to you guys and feel like I take pages of notes more, watch your content.

Ryan · 36:04

What is 1 area of Matcha that you don't know that you're trying to find answers to? Like what are your areas of investigation or research on maybe the history or farming or cultivation? Where are you trying to expand your knowledge base even further?

Koto · 36:21

Or you are curious the most about. And how do you do it? Because we have a couple of unanswered questions that we're trying to research. We're always like, curious to hear other people try to expand their scope of knowledge. I think I may need a can knowledge, but the OK, so my process of the learning of the OR matcha or Japanese green tea, of course, like I know like a basic knowledge or like a history or like some like basic science. And the next while I drill down is a cultivation agriculture and know how to grow the like a plant. And they also actually try to like grow the some of the vegetable from the planter and

Koto · 36:58

then know like what kind of nutrition or that how react the plants react with some if the lack of lack of the fertilizer or something. And if like you know about agriculture, you can apply into the reiterate to the like tea cultivation. Also you can drill down the each mineral or some like a component of the like a agriculture.

Koto · 37:18

So I mean not just a fertilizer, organic fertilizer, but also the mineral. And if talk about the mineral, you need to drill down the geology of the Japanese geology. And deeper and deeper. Yeah. And also you know that about the history of the horse, right?

Koto · 37:30

How that Japan is a builder? Actually this kind of things also like sparked his interest when we visit that Shichimeien. So like he talked about geology a lot about how like old Lake Biwa was there and the minerals and the soil.

Koto · 37:45

And then afterward he he bought all the books about like a soil science in Japan. We just could go more fundamental and fundamental so. I have several mineral book and then also yeah, about how to say about the like the research, how like a soil or mineral contribute the taste of the tea, because people keep talking terroir, but people don't know the deep depths about it. And about Yvatasan is the owner of the Shichimeien in our prefecture.

Koto · 38:14

He is a state called family business of the tea farmer. But his background is a graduate from the agriculture faculty of the Tokyo University. He's intelligent, so like he write down many his insight in the blog and his style is natural cultivation and natural cultivation.

Koto · 38:31

So it's mean that doesn't give the fertilizer and it's just like a nutrition is maybe cut off the tea tree or just put that in a weed, cut the weed and they put that around the tea field. So this influence of the fertilizer only like a mostly mineral and organic material around around the area. Then he also experiment.

Koto · 38:49

So his area there is a both gray soil and sandy soil. Sandy soil is a granite soil. Granite soil is a like similar as a ishi-usu stone grinder. Yeah. Ishi-usu. Yeah, so like a more like a whitish like a mineral and like a good drainage.

Koto · 39:06

The gray soil is a like a used to be like old Lake Biwa, Lake Biwa around the five million years ago around the Lake Biwa is around another area, not like as you guys. Oh really. And then and used to be in Lake Biwa and about the geographically change and this the device lake via disappear and they come up disappear and then now they move to like around the area.

Koto · 39:30

Well, I guess they don't have much of 5 million years ago. That's interesting. Yeah. And there's some like, you know, clay soil. This means they used to be that sediment of the like, like maybe organic, like material, like a living being.

Koto · 39:44

So this one has like a like a rich mineral or like complexity. And he ended that place. That area is a kind of like a, like a, some place is a granite soil. But the difference like a steep is a like a clay soil and he plant same plant, same cultivar and he guided the knife.

Ryan · 40:03

Edge. And there's two plots even he guided I tasted the tea actually tastes different. So this plant is a exactly like a difference of the like soil. Yeah, interesting. Was it a conventional farming, do you know? Or organic farming?

Koto · 40:19

This one natural cultivation, organic. So no fertilizer. Or fertilizer nutrition where nutrition from maybe only sunlight? Night photosynthesis and tea plant grow and also other weeds grow and cut the wheat and put in the soil.

40:35

So it's mean that this OK, they close already. I close already. OK, OK. We will continue. On OK, OK, OK, OK. That's embarrassing. That was a great conversation. OK, so yeah, for your talking when like what you want to learn more too? Yeah, I was talking about like a fertilizer and like a cultivation.

Koto · 40:52

And he tried like growing something like to think in the eyes of like producers flowers too. So what I see from him, he brought like geology books. He bought a farming book, he bought like a fertilizer book and a history of cultivation. And then, you know, he he likes cooking. So whatever is leftover, he froze and then make fertilizer if.

Koto · 41:14

He and then he fertilizer. Yes, he prevent his own fertilizer and then grow his own okra, grow his own plants. So on vegetables. So just techniques on vegetables actually. Actually, there's some tea as well. Cool. When have you guys processed it? We we do, Michel.

Koto · 41:32

Takes 560 years to rehab a stick. Yeah. We, we brought like we were just like harm in Ujitawara and I. You just pick up some seed and then back and then, well, miraculously some. Oh, you grew it from seeds? Yes, interesting.

Koto · 41:47

Ujitawara as I ride now in probably a little pot in Bangkok now. I was like. Oh, for a year and a half. Must be good. Yeah, so like it's more like understand how producer think and the funny things. When I post some like Instagram I don't say this one tea tree but the one producer I know common thing is your So they're looking at the URL like a tea tree. How about the pH?

Koto · 42:11

Is this a well grown? And then that night answer this. Actually this tea farmer is also master. I bring the pH meter to run my room and fit it and I check the pH and send the information. Wow. And you tell him this is Michelle?

Koto · 42:24

Michelle from the Seed. He's grown and this find a wine year and so he thought they did some branch propagation. Oh, so this one may seems like grow well. Interesting. Wow, what is the proper pH? Proper pH. Row pH like a low pH so middle is a second. So I think I'm between 3:00 to 5:00. Pretty.

Koto · 42:43

It's pretty low pretty. Low yes, so it's mean that actually tea plant originally I can grow the place like I normally cannot grow the vegetable or other like rice because the mountainous area not the convenient and but like I can grow the tea and the tea is a valuable.

Ryan · 42:58

We were just learning about that in Yunnan. We were in Chiang Mai and there's all of these fields and the the core producers were telling us, yeah, a lot of this motivation here. You can't grow anything else. Like it's only suitable for tea. Minor production area like cigar Manduca area that one the original is a monk introduced a TC because a farmer cannot grow those so much visible well.

Koto · 43:22

So like how about the planting the TC then they sell as a kind of like a supporting their life. Interesting. And I think which is a little like a unique that tea culture is a popular around the capital like Kyoto. So like our people want their demand more the good quality one. Therefore the more managed to become like A1 foundation area. So that was it actually geologically not the best area in the very rare place because of most of the best cultivation area like Accenture, like Shizuoka or Yame mountains area in the sandy soil.

Koto · 43:52

And it's back to the about the story of the like a sandy soil and clay soil. I case it like a same cultivar with the sandy soil and clay soil that's just like connects each other and the sandy soil, the refreshing like a green aroma, but the clay soil, they're more than deep and the complexity, but the less refreshment about the sandy soil is it looks like proper for that in a fresh, fresh flavor of the green tea. So Japanese like the sandy soil about the leaf tea, but the clay soil is a like a not so like a flavorful that that color tea color tend to be a little reddish. So it which is a negative.

Koto · 44:26

So what they're like Ivato Tan does is a tea tan black tea cultivar in the clay soil, you know like the bhakti that complexity is nice and also clay soil called a more mineral or more fertilizer. So it can create a thick taste.

Koto · 44:41

And about the uji or quilt area, there is a both clay ish soil and sandy ish soil and so base and both which one better farmer optimize producer can grow the best tea, eat both easier area if the sandy soil just solve the problem of the fertilization and also if the clay soil maybe they need to improve the drainage.

Ryan · 45:04

Interesting because when we were in Kagoshima, it was like very clay, clay soil type of environment because it was like almost in the river. It was very wet and it was very. Muddy and dense almost. Yeah, I think so because I seen the location. The Uji.

Koto · 45:20

It's actually based on sentiment of the like maybe mountain around the east side, right? So like a Uji is a mostly like a muddy area. Yeah, that was very interesting because like I when I was there in Kagoshima because like that environment or the soil condition was like traditionally considered as the worst type of soil for like Chinese tea, but that was considered to be the most pristine tawa for matcha.

Koto · 45:46

And now it makes sense because like this, clay soil can hold more like nutrients. So it's mean that easy to make fertilizer effective. Yeah, easy to make fertilizer. Effective, well suited for matcha. Yeah, for matcha. Yeah, so seen.

Zongjun · 45:57

So it's mean that matcha cultivation is not like a like a generated made by the nature this more human walk. It's really a product of like effort even like for what the plant eats like in the terms of fertilizer. Do you guys agree with the point of view that matcha is not very terroir expressive? Not at all.

Koto · 46:18

Terroir maybe less than 5%, OK, 19 or 5% is the human effort. We have the same conclusion. The more we learn, the more we realize that I heard from. Some blender that this cultivar is good in the mountainous areas. I think it depends on that the easy to grow or not.

Koto · 46:34

With the for example mountainous area temperature lower, it's like a cultivar difficult to grow. I mean that they cannot grow in the lower temperature after shaded kind of grow, right? Yeah, yeah. So it's really about, you know, the growth and the survival.

Koto · 46:49

Of the plant even same cultivar depends on the area the cultivation method to the different like Samidori in Uji and Samidori in the Yame both master mean the level of the competition. Winning the competition they are shading method. The timing of shading different very different. So mean that even talking about shading they can talk more than one hour.

Ryan · 47:10

That will be the next episode, yeah. Yeah, yeah, man. How is it different? But just yeah, OK, I know it must be complex, but in a simple way, how's the philosophy different? OK, philosophy. So not generally speaking, shading must start do after a new bat coming out, right?

Koto · 47:29

It's like a bat already grow and shade. It mean that there's some time like which is not exposed by the like which is already exposed by sunlight. So no more like more. More Catechin. Yeah, but if like in the Uji method and Uji style and the shade from the beginning assignment, it cannot grow well and they're like dying or like a weaker, but it's works.

Koto · 47:53

But this point though, Yame actually do like this. If the bots new bot coming out or opening up, just shade and it's it can do it and the possible factor, just my personal opinion. Maybe so is different. Yame is a OK mountainous area and then I actually quite sandy soil. OK, I mean that's rocky soil and actually mineral is quite good. So maybe eat is a rocky soil in the roots grow well and the plants grow well and the flavor are color nice. So it's mean that less influence originally that could grow. Plants grow well.

Koto · 48:23

Therefore, like even the shading still can grow, but the Uji tend to be more like heavy fertilization And then also taste might be a little muddy or Cray. So I mean the roots difficult to grow, but the taste makes it thicker and this condition might not match to the situation.

Koto · 48:39

The for the Samidori doesn't match the Samidori and therefore Uji just talking with the way or they're not sure about the way of the Uji people. They draw a little more and the shade. Yeah. And do you think the momentum.

Koto · 48:56

Yeah. So like timing of the like how many beef open and start shaving is that there's some of the know how and I think Yame I think yeah or something like so not the one leaf. Yeah, talking with the one producing Yame 0.8 leaf. So it's mean that 80% of 80% leaf open, OK, 80% of the first leaf open shade.

Ryan · 49:21

Interesting 0.8% leaf. I know they're by 80%. 80%. 80% of beef first leaf open. Oh, very, very interesting. Very quantified. And about that was he like about a second leaf or something second leaf, something that already in the start grow leaf is moving something that grow.

Koto · 49:39

There are some using the momentum of the growing up and they're also shading also other like talking with other like professional. And then he like a judge of the IT competition and he see like he was like analyzing how to beat up the like a Yame with a with a Yame now is a top of the production in the competition.

Koto · 49:59

There's a scientist show the hour of the area. I think more than I think 10 years Yame keep winning. I mean the group award, it's mean that some of the rank of the like a winner of the individual winner of the area. So I mean the Yame won the area award.

Koto · 50:15

It's mean that many high rank producer in the from the area and there was a specialized for the matcha. But that's that's like a person analyzed me the key cutting the winning the competition grade of the Yame and analyze how to bring to the like a Yame. Interesting.

Ryan · 50:31

He I wonder why Yame doesn't shade so heavily, but the flavor is like a like a rich, like as like a well, shady tea. And his conclusion I mean originally had the shaded aroma and the judge might be like a misunderstood.

Koto · 50:45

Oh, it's because of the cultivar. Ordinary people has something like mild like a rounded aroma. Mild Ooika, basically. Ooika-ish aroma or yeah ish Yeah, because so I mean, the Yame actually doesn't shade so heavily as OG. Oh wow, that's fascinating.

Ryan · 51:01

So many, many small difference among the professional. Yeah. And I hear about the judge of the competition grade and how to judge like a like a winner. He has excellent taste, so he can be the intention of each producer. Wow.

Koto · 51:17

Yeah, yeah. So like. Taste for intention. Yeah. So this person I said normally competition grade must you submit the young but but this person but this year the taste is a little shallower. I mean, because in the springtime the temperature didn't grow up.

Koto · 51:32

So I mean the tea plant didn't grow well. So taste is a little weaker. So that one producer who got high score in the competition mixed a little orderly to and the richness that to, but to the level other just don't know this. Interesting.

Koto · 51:47

So professional is a just based on the quality and also discussing among the professional and and about the evaluation competition in the OR something key evaluation competition. It's not like a competition of the matcha, but the competition of the evaluation skill.

Koto · 52:07

It's one that regularly organized and people from total the top of the nation. For a value evaluation. Evaluation like the total like send in a top three group mean that flex. I don't know how many number, but you know, for example, 5 ranked people Group A top like 5-6 to 10 people is like Group B or sometimes the other the Group C join the national competition. Maybe result of the previous year 123 is the ABC or was all total I think and the evaluation competition total is that might be more difficult than the national competition. Oh.

Ryan · 52:42

Interesting. So the competition. Of Chakabuki. Oh, Chakabuki. Yeah, yes. Here we see like it's the tea evaluation competition that like eventually you see as a game, right? But they also see as a game plus you know how to like beat up each other and also like the test and bring some suspicious samples or like to keep leveling up and trying to get out of people's to get a wrong answer.

Zongjun · 53:07

That's so funny. Well, for our audience that doesn't know what Chakabuki is, it's a game that you play. You first identify several teas and also introducing a foreign tea and then you need to identify that foreign tea among all the tea that you have tasted previously.

Koto · 53:23

Very fun game to play. That that one was like one of the quite a challenging part. And they do it like real, like serious competition. In fact, that got the competition. I think only one or only one people or two people in the history, like long history, like 70 or 80 times, only one person got the full score.

Koto · 53:43

Only one or two person got full score. Interesting. Everyone try not to make a right answer the submitting the tea from each group, but this kind of sample tea might be a little tricky. Interesting. Always very tricky teas. So people, this kind of people need to not taste it and also need to like and this what that like what that what that this like a fracture happened. OK, so it's not really just identifying what tea, but also like all the information about the tea. So for example, like maybe this sencha might be a little like a shady flavor or something. OK, OK.

Ryan · 54:21

Wow. Once. More difficult to tell the cultivar. How do you even train to become that? It's very difficult to find a chance to really learn it. We've noticed that too. Yeah, because just even getting the reference samples, what does over withered taste like?

Ryan · 54:36

What does this process or that process taste like? It's It's so hard to learn. Yes, yes, exactly. Because there's no like school here, like we're going to teach you about the defects and stuff. Yeah, that's what the school needs to be. Let's let I want to learn what the defects are. Yes, the coffee industry does that. Like, yes.

Koto · 54:52

Yes, I. Think a. White like a Most don't I want to like a share that like right education or defect if like people sell this fine defect and cannot sell right. Yeah, it's difficult to sell, but. If people don't doesn't know about the terroir and they can sell right as a unique flavor, that's like a taste of the distal world or like this producer.

Ryan · 55:11

There's a thin line between like accepting new things and selling as like some random thing. That is true. That is what well, like for. For one side, you can almost argue that a defect might be someone else's, you know, preference. Like a slightly oxidized matcha.

Ryan · 55:26

You know, like some of them. I actually like the flower that's from it. Actually you were the 1 I think where I first learned the Japanese tencha or matcha can have Inca. The Inca bites, the jacid unka unka unka bites. And you were like, professionals go around cupping these raw tencha samples and there's like defect, defect, defect. I think you say you described it, but then I was thinking, well, maybe someone would like that floral taste. Inca, Inca unca.

Zongjun · 55:50

Excuse me, Unka bitten. I think that one, I think we had that with like Yokoro and then there there was a lot of unka in there. So that one we with our limited knowledge and experience, but well that one was I collect from experience. We tried after receiving the like Yokro first month. First two-month was very good, like quite nice. But afterwards it just deteriorates. Like we, we kept 2 bag without opening. So after like 5-6 months we open another bag. It's just totally different teas. It doesn't age well too, so there's. Some wisdom in these defects.

Koto · 56:27

There there must be something wrong while I get there. With the ring flavor mean that when tasty, so it's mean that doesn't have so much like a defect from by the insect bite because unka and bite bitten by unka mean the small green leafhopper, right? And then this one might have some like a unique flow of aroma like oriental beauty and the defect after storage maybe about that I think control the humidity, humidity or maybe something problem the steaming.

Koto · 56:54

It's kind of like if you get something wrong, there's going to be like other things following. Up follow on effects. And this is Japanese tea actually not so much diversity of the process like Chinese tea or Taiwan tea. Actually evaluation is very simple material. Value of the raw leaf is 100% and how much you reduce the defect or reduce the minus score. So it's mean the firstly prepare the 100th score of the tea leaf and how much you don't you process without a mistake. It's subtractive.

Koto · 57:31

It's not additive. Like in the end, like the ending products? Could it be more than the quality of the raw leaves? Itself difficulty is for the I think a young producer or first project who doesn't have experience even they made the best to produce a full score of a perfect tea. But might have a mistake in the tea processing and the value of the tea is another high.

Ryan · 57:53

So crazy complex. It's so cool what you guys are doing and that's even available. I think Koto T Space honestly is one of the greatest places to learn as a consumer. It's like no one's talking about this stuff at this level.

Ryan · 58:05

Like when we did this cupping with you in Bangkok a few months ago, comparing these different samples back-to-back. It's such a great learning opportunity for people. So we really encourage anyone or any of our listeners ever in Bangkok, you have to go to go to T spaces at least once.

Koto · 58:20

The ticket were for a plane ticket to go to Thailand totally. Worth going out of your way? Absolutely. Things like one of our teachers mostly say, you know the tea samples, we have a lot of tea samples and then combining with our like experience, we're talking to producers and also like observation we discussed with them as well. We gradually piling up this know how, but I think there's a lot more we don't know or sometimes when sometimes we misunderstand or we need to update the knowledge as well. But we like As for some people who like, like I think many of us is like opening the tea shop outside of Japan and then doesn't have access to this kind

Koto · 58:57

of knowledge of tea evaluations or. These references. These references it's very difficult. We also like figuring out the good thing is that use case Japanese and also like we we keep like visiting Japan. Yeah, you guys have some crazy access and you guys travel here all the time.

Koto · 59:13

Yeah, that's. Very nerd. Even my knowledge, but not enough to like a talk in the more practical right. So I mean, I know there's some like people who run who like around the tea business. I mean, there's some like small SMB in the Shizuoka and she's I think almost around the 70s and reading that he's like A blog or 10 years ago that she like tasting that tea.

Koto · 59:37

And they can mention or he can ask the question of specifically to the producer anything wrong about this process or for this process, this process or the treatment can be a problem. And this kind of specification help to improve the producer.

Koto · 59:56

But I don't think I'm not the level yet. Japanese sea has many, many connection, culture side and also scientific side, more like maybe like a Japanese, like a nature, like a geology. So the more you know and then like your resolution is more like a detail.

Ryan · 1:00:12

I think you can discover many things. And also, you know, about the local culture, local food. Like, it's really a telescope into, you know, Japan as a whole, which is very fascinating. Yeah, also you observing the local people's living also hints to understand the preference preference of the taste.

Koto · 1:00:30

So I mean this one also can be the answer why the Yame area people like to eat like some thick taste or the Tokyo also thick taste. But the Shizuoka Kyoto is like a light taste or clean taste. Not just much to the tea.

Koto · 1:00:44

Yeah, not just tea, but also that everything and especially water is a highly influential. We can talk about water now. There's a lot of well around the Kyoto, so you can go and filter some water that is like recommended by Sen no Rikyu or something like Tea Master and you try to drink differently.

Zongjun · 1:01:03

That's interesting. In the old time, like 5-4 hundred years ago, there's some record like people like who takes water from the Uji River and then do the tea ceremony, right? So I mean all time, even the river water is a drinkable some. Industrial Revolution.

Koto · 1:01:22

Yeah. So Japan is like a rich source of the clean water and based on this clean water, Japanese like a full or like a like a habit to develop. It's very endless, right? So I think what we really made us into tea is not just the tea itself, but everything around the tea. So when you learn, we learn everything around the tea, you meet an interesting people.

Koto · 1:01:44

It enlarge in your respect perspective. And also you feel like this is like I can keep going on. And also you feel like your life is not boring. Also, like, you can feel that you can spread this kind of like enthusiasm and the fulfilledness, you know, the sense of, you know, enrichment to the other people and like or like a passion. Like you guys like going over like, from like from US and from Paris.

Ryan · 1:02:07

So here like, just to, you know, like learning things about this and sharing everything together. So yeah, I feel like this kind of like action is very meaningful. And that's what we keep like doing the tea. Yeah, absolutely. I can't think of a better note to end on actually. Thank you, guys.

Ryan · 1:02:24

Thank you guys so much for coming on. We we really appreciate it and for recording for so long. We actually recorded so long that we had to leave the restaurant. We're finishing this in the. Car parking lot. But thank you guys so much and we can't wait to see you guys again in Bangkok hopefully sometime soon. And.

Koto · 1:02:43

That's our quest to the endless of endless knowledge of tea, you know, keep progressing. We have more and more to share in the future and you guys have to come to a new episode. You already got 3 episodes. All right, Thank you so much.

Zongjun · 1:03:00

And if you enjoyed listening to this, please consider sharing with a friend. If you're in Bangkok, you absolutely need to go to go to T space and we'll see you in the next one. Thanks. Thank you. See you. Thank. You, everyone.