The Matcha Program with Jules Reyes and Marc St Raymond

Ryan · 0:06

All right, hello, and welcome to the Specialty Matcha Podcast. My name is Ryan. This is Zongjun Li, who also goes by Sam, and we're the cofounders of Sanko Matcha Products. Yeah, we launched this podcast to discuss our learning journey, Matcha, share startup stories and interview experts. And this episode we have Jules and Marc with us today to talk about their journey with Matcha.

Ryan · 0:26

Welcome guys, and welcome back Jules. Thanks for having us, great to meet you guys. Would love if we could if you guys could give just a quick introduction of yourselves or reintroduction tools and a little bit about your personal and professional back. Sure.

Marc · 0:41

I'll go first because I know Jules has already been here before. My name is Marc Alexandre. My most notable venture in this world of matcha was starting the brand Jade Leaf Matcha back in 2014. Prior to that came from an engineering background and kind of moved to San Francisco with tech startup dreams. But somewhere along the way became infatuated with matcha tea and in those early days was kind of a an early maven, I guess of getting people around me to drink it and discover it and fall in love with it in the way that I did. And a business partner of mine, Will Brothers, who was doing tech stuff with me for a little

Marc · 1:17

while, I convinced him, hey, this matcha thing is actually quite an opportunity. And we kind of in a small way put together a new brand idea with Jade Leaf. Trying to solve our own problem in 2014 was still not what it is today in terms of mainstream awareness that you could find in in Whole Foods like Do Matcha. And then the only other place you'd really find it was in specialty tea shops or or starting to show up on Amazon. But we noticed two things.

Marc · 1:45

One either it was kind of expensive like a Do Matcha canister was like 40 bucks at Whole Foods or or the pouches you'd see on Amazon were. Cheap. But then you'd order them, then you'd get them and they would inevitably be a pretty bad quality.

Marc · 1:59

So we we saw an opportunity to try to, to play in the middle. It's like, hey, can we source good quality that tastes good and actually price it fairly and present it well. And, and those were the basic tenants of what Jade Leaf would become. And our, our come up over the years of 14/15/16 was on Amazon. We started to make our, our headway becoming the, the top selling matcha there.

Marc · 2:24

And that translated into starting to show up in stores like Walmart and Target. Our goal was not to ever be the most super high end brand, luxury brand, if you will. There there were other people kind of servicing those niches of folks who wanted a very, very specialty matcha.

Marc · 2:41

We wanted to bring it more broadly to the the average consumer in the US that was becoming aware of it. Probably, you know, having a good latte somewhere and wanting to recreate it at home. That was our customer and and I think continues to be this to this day.

Marc · 2:56

But yeah, that was that was the goal and it was a very fun journey. And along the way, that's where we got to meet Jules and she can give us some of the history there. And that became our core founding team. There were just five of us up through around 2020 when we decided to transition the business to a new owner who has taken it to even further heights, which we're really happy to see, but have not lost the passion for matcha and tea in general.

Marc · 3:21

And always looking for ways to stay involved and, and continue to kind of push the industry forward and, and have more people enjoy it. So it's, it's, it's really a pleasure to be here. Today it's really amazing your your brand in general. Just even before I was like even like into matcha professionally, like seeing on Amazon and like all of the Amazon reviews 100,000 and then you go in and you look at like the distribution of stars.

Marc · 3:47

It's like, wow, like there is some deep consumer resonance there and like just spreading and getting a quality product to someone probably for the first time, which is really amazing. The groundwork that that's laid, that's like like this new layer of consumers kind of like with specialty coffee that now like they're interested in matcha, maybe they want a single origin one or you know, explore this world a little deeper.

Marc · 4:11

Yeah. It's, it's been cool to see that transition and we worked hard to again, kind of connect with the mostly the American consumer because that was where our distribution is, connect with them, where they were at and, and kind of educate them in ways that that didn't seem too complicated or too to, to foreign, for lack of a better word. So that again, that's where Jade Leaf was trying to be easy to, to grasp or, or the broad audience. But what I've I've noticed and, and that's why to this day, I think the, the culinary matcha that Jade Leaf sells, which is the more entry level price point, continues to be its top seller.

Marc · 4:45

But what I've noticed and what we tried to do during our time at Jade Leaf, and I don't think the new owners are doing it so much. Is. Catering to the the consumers that wanted to level up and get to a higher quality first harvest matcha tea or even beyond that to a specialty cultivar or you know, some particular sourcing or manner of production that that created something unique. We were dabbling in that, Jules in particular on the team, trying to push towards that.

Marc · 5:13

I don't mean they're doing that as much now, but I do see the consumer of matcha in the US is starting to veer towards more. You know what's known here as the ceremonial matcha, the nicer ones in the tins and they're willing to pay more because they're discovering that yes, in fact, it does have a more pleasing taste for most palates.

Marc · 5:32

And, and that's cool to see. I love that people are appreciating it and willing again to level up and not seeing it just as superfood green powder, which is how a lot of people came to it in in the 1st place. And they're seeing it as like, oh, this is unique beverage that that I really want to enjoy. But I'll stop there and let Jules introduce her. So talk too much already.

Jules · 5:54

I love it, I love it. I'm Jules and my journey in Matcha started over a decade ago, so it's been such an incredible journey so far. I won't get in too much of the intro, I know I shared that in one of our earlier episodes, but but Instagram completely changed my life.

Jules · 6:10

Launching my Instagram pages, Match SF, Matcha LA, and Matcha NYC allowed me to pivot my career from special education through that as I was trying to supplement my income as a barista. As a bartender doing freelance social media, I connected with Marc through Instagram and specifically my Match SF page as he saw that I was co-hosting the US's first matcha festival and wanted to sponsor.

Jules · 6:35

And I did touch on that a bit in the previous episode. But it's incredible. I think today's creator on social media and the opportunities that it opens up for them to pivot their careers to change their lives. I am so grateful for things like Instagram because it allowed me to really deepen my love for matcha to contribute to the industry in various ways. And now, you know, Marc, at one point in my journey, you know, he sponsored my events.

Jules · 7:03

I started freelancing for Jade Leaf. He hired me on as as their first hire outside of the Co founders and I LED marketing. Today we're Co founders in our new venture. So it's incredible because he was once my manager. Now work in a much, you know, deeper capacity with him and, you know, just continue to evolve as people evolve, as leaders evolve and grow within the company that we're building and in our own Matcha journey.

Jules · 7:30

I think it's incredible how we continue to challenge ourselves. So we're super excited to be here and have a deeper conversation about the things that we're working on specifically with the Matcha program. So you guys have been in the industry for over a decade, so I'm sure you've seen the good, bad and the ugly of matcha program. So just in terms of like the landscape of matcha preparation, how have you seen that evolve over the years? But what was being presented as solutions for consumers at home, but then also in cafes, which is like the core of the thesis behind the matcha program.

Jules · 8:05

It's a descriptive name to like. What is your matcha program at a cafe? Mark, you want to take the first part. Now, Jules, please. OK, I. Think it's a much program you're you're more yeah. It, it all starts at the consumer level, but you know, taking the traditional tools like the chawan and the chasen, you know, back in the early Jade Leaf days. We, I mean, when I say we, I just want to clarify, Mark and I have since then exited the company. We're no longer, you know, working in Jade Leaf, but when we were we had several different kits that we launched. We had a ceremonial kit.

Jules · 8:37

We had a modern kit with an electric frother. At one point Mark had this idea about a matcha shot shaker that we were. It was just you wanted to test it out and and back then, you know, we see it a lot today, at least I do in content of people traveling with their little.

Jules · 8:53

Plastic. Shakers And so we launched that back in 2020 to 2019 and so much operation at home has evolved. And I think the most important thing is it works for you. The challenge that I see at the food service level, which is the, you know, that's where the matcha program plays and educates is you have food service operators taking preparation like, you know, traditional preparation, like using a chawan and a chasen and trying to use that at scale, whether they're preparing much drinks in a high volume environment. And I do want to specify the content is for and, and we tailor it to high volume cafes.

Jules · 9:35

I've recognized over the last few weeks since we've launched the matcha program, that distinction is very important because these cafes are managing both coffee and matcha programs. These aren't tea houses. These aren't matcha houses that are structured or or founded on preparing matcha slowly and mindfully where hand whisking makes a lot of sense.

Jules · 9:54

Now in your average busy Cafe you're seeing, and we've seen this and I've heard this in your your episodes that it doesn't necessarily make the most sense. Matcha stations look really chaotic toss and really sad. And I don't think fundamental knowledge baseline knowledge of how to care for the tools.

Jules · 10:14

And that spurred the question, is this the best preparation method for this specific context? And and you know, the consumer drives a lot of that for Opera cafe operators, they drive a lot of the interest in a lot of those viral matcha drinks which cafes will adopt.

Jules · 10:31

And it's smart this, you know, if, if cream tops are bringing in and driving traffic, put a cream top on the menu. And so that's a, that's a good topic. But you know, they're using traditional tools, they're preparing matcha. Traditionally, there are cafes that batch matcha, There are cafes that do hybrid models.

Jules · 10:49

And I think both methods have a place in a Cafe. Both have to be done very thoughtfully and done really well because I, I have personally have had way too many hand whisk matcha drinks that started with oxidized matcha.

Jules · 11:03

Because the first thing I do when I go to a cafe is I scan, I look at the matcha station, I see it's stored in the giant clear transparent container and it looks dies and I already know I'm not going to have a good experience.

Jules · 11:16

I order it validated. It tastes oxidized. It's pretty bitter. Bitterness is isn't necessarily a bad thing when it comes to matcha, but the type of oxidized bitter is. Yeah, probably. So I think that, you know, matcha preparation I think continues to evolve. It's going to continue to evolve with your product. You know that you're, you're bringing to market, especially, you know, at the food service level where we, we, you know, we'll see more freshly milled matcha to order. And, and it's really exciting to see the innovations that you're bringing to market.

Jules · 11:45

But it's something that I think is going to continue to evolve. And it's been really incredible to hear the conversations that are happening specific to food service, because I think it's been an underserviced audience in in matcha.

Jules · 11:59

And we know this, you know, Mark and I at Jade Leaf, when we launched our wholesale arm of the business, we had a team member dedicated to those relationships. We put resources together for our Cafe partners and especially pandemic had incredible support, financial support and other structures be put in place to support cafes that worked with us. Those programs or matcha programs are the resources of brand.

Jules · 12:24

And I want to say specifically maybe UK/US based matcha brands that will put those programs together. I don't know and to my knowledge don't believe they necessarily exist within Japanese founded matcha brands like tea houses who have resources or robust programs for wholesale partners.

Jules · 12:44

But we we worked in tandem with them to teach and educate through various resources that we would provide, whether it be videos through blogs, through having someone there teaching and doing virtual classes as well. There are Matcha brands today that do an incredible job at that and I know them at the top of my mind because they have an incredible loyal base of customers who are like would not even consider switching Matcha brand partners because they feel invested in the Matcha brand themselves because of how they've invested back into them. Now that education, you have access to that if you work with that Matcha brand.

Jules · 13:24

There hasn't been a resource outside of specific to cafe operators or people and food service that's accessible to the public. And you know, Mark and I, we have these conversations on the back end just we love matcha and we're constantly talking about it.

Jules · 13:40

And unless you work in the industry like we do, all four of us, you know, those conversations happen together. It doesn't necessarily happen in a place that's accessible, you know, outside of the podcast or outside of the, you know, the Matcha program that we just launched 3 weeks ago.

Zongjun · 13:57

So it's, it's interesting to see how it'll continue to evolve and you know, as this kind of sparks new ideas or new innovations that we're seeing in Matcha. Yeah. Well, I, I think this is really important because like as you are, you were talking about like all these cafes are using retrofitting, you know, ceremonial tools to make matcha.

Zongjun · 14:17

Some of them are, you know, for a demonstration purpose. But I feel like there are some cafes would do that just to, you know, demonstrate it to the consumers that, you know, they, they, they are making that effort to make the which is, you know, what the cons are expecting.

Zongjun · 14:32

But they don't necessarily they, they, they're not, a lot of them are not quite making the connection of OK, you know, maybe using the electric software in a, you know, faster, you know, consumption scenario, which is like a cafe setting is actually better than a chasen.

Zongjun · 14:49

Like a lot of people are still, you know, not having that kind of realization of making the connection that, you know, a better tool actually means higher quality, not necessarily a older tool or more small tool quality.

Jules · 15:04

So I think that's that's super important because the education, you know, not only goes to the people who works in the industry, but also should go to the consumers too. Yeah, that's a great point because when you see, you know, customers matcha, customers have an expectation and there's a stigma against batching matcha where they see that and they equate it to low quality. I've had many hand-whisked matchas that from a flavor standpoint and then a customer experience standpoint has been a low quality experience because outside of just hand whisking with traditional, there is much more to consider with your broader matcha program that

Jules · 15:41

they's quality. And it, it's not simply using the tools to say, Hey, you know, like we're honor. And I'm curious, where did where did this notion of honoring the tradition or culture of, you know, I think it's, it's beautiful, You know, I think it's a it's a beautiful thought.

Jules · 15:56

But contextually in food service, it doesn't necessarily map to the realities that food service operators face and is simply using the traditional tools and enough to check the box to say we're honoring the tradition and culture of matcha.

Jules · 16:11

What I'm curious, what is that? What does that mean? I'm definitely curious because it's something I see a lot in content. And so I question that. It's like, so if I if I'm whisking traditionally and I'm using a chawan and a chasen, but I'm not storing my matcha properly, I'm using the incorrect water brewing temperature and all fall to the wayside.

Marc · 16:31

Is that enough? Yeah, well, if you really want to honor it, you should have burned your chasen. And right after we whisk at that bowl. Disposable item historically. Yeah, that's. It really. That's actually a great point.

Marc · 16:46

Yeah, sorry. Go ahead, Marc. I was just going to say it's an interesting cherry picking of a piece of a rich tradition that involves a lot of aspects. I would say the literal whisking of matcha in a bowl is just one piece of of the tea ceremony that we're trying to honor in Japan and you know, arguably not even the most important one.

Marc · 17:08

What's important is to host bringing people together to enjoy much all together in a space and be around each other. The performative aspect of of whisking, it was almost as a necessity to to get the teammate. The industry has done such a good job convincing everyone that the chasen is the single greatest tool for making matcha.

Marc · 17:28

It's all like, why wouldn't the cafes use the single greatest tool? Because for the last decade, every single matcha company ever, including us, we've done videos about this talk about the chasen being the single greatest tool ever made to make matcha.

Marc · 17:43

So it's, it's, it's an interesting thing. But, you know, back to what you were saying, Jules, like, why do we ask this of businesses or consumers? Why does someone need to honor the tradition? If you're making a matcha latte, this, like, we don't ask that of any other food stuff that has, like, long, rich history.

Jules · 18:03

It's a pretty weird and unusual thing in, like, modern life. Yeah. Specific to Matcha, it's, it's, it's very interesting and I think it poses challenges because when you have like, to your point, Matcha brands and, and some of the big as well, they, the, the level of marketing that they bring. And I don't agree with a lot of it. It's something that initially at Jade Leaf, we were very thoughtful about, like we didn't run any ads about, you know, matcha is better than coffee.

Jules · 18:32

We tried to educate about how French, you know, I'm not sure if, if that still maps to how they, they market today, but you see that a lot with the, the Matcha brands where they set the standard. I mean, even earlier, 10 years ago with some of the earlier Matcha brands that had physical locations, cafes, I mean all the matcha station red flags, you know, like storing matcha in a giant bowl.

Jules · 18:56

It's like a, a mound of matcha exposed to air, you know, selling matcha jars in clear jars, you know, and, and they can, you know, as we all do, we continue to learn and recognize, oh, actually this isn't the best option.

Jules · 19:10

And you know, there's a better way to do this and a better way to educate. But with a lot of the marketing that I see it is this or that fake versus real, we are better. And it leaves a gap in and education where you know, I'm seeing a lot of consumers taking the initiative to educate themselves through content, through questioning brands.

Jules · 19:30

And it creates a level of skepticism on their part where you know, if you have a brand saying and most macho brands will say we have the best quality, we're better than them, that's great. But how does that serve your customer? How do you, how are you adding value to educate them at a level to understand what are the characteristics of quality and and how do you judge that based of outside of our word saying that we source the best.

Jules · 19:56

It's an interesting thing that I see that now translates over to the food service world where they're adopting a lot of that language because it's coming from matcha brands that are educating customers about what's wrong.

Jules · 20:10

And now we're seeing this, we're in this interesting phase in matcha in the industry and how it's being received of people dissecting. It to a degree and I think that the work that we're trying to do, like the four of us here are trying to shift the narrative a bit to question, to offer a different perspective or alternative to get people to understand that it's not so black or white And it's it's yeah, a lot of and I speak I, I share this to someone in that has been in the role and function of marketing in matcha specifically that it's, it's such an interesting time that we're in and I think it's created a level of confusion,

Jules · 20:51

especially at the food service level where I am. I'm so surprised by the level of engagement, the content we've shared and I've shared on my personal page, but also through the recently launched Matcha program pages on TikTok and on Instagram. People chiming in and contributing their perspective, contributing their questions and even their criticism because it was the criticism and critical feedback. So two different things that the critical feedback I got and then the constructive criticism that actually inspired the Matcha program because it is so I'd.

Jules · 21:27

Like to learn more about that origin story of the Matcha program? Which which we can get into. I feel like I've diverted a bit from the original. No worries. It's how a conversation naturally fell. Yeah, I, I kind of, I do enjoy that because this is, I mean, this is how like when when Mark and I talk about matcha offline, like we could we just go down these rabbit holes of, you know, what we see what we do.

Jules · 21:54

And, and, and that's also like, I love feedback, especially at our time at Jade Leaf. I know it's Jade Leaf as, as a brand. And this is the topic that I have seen. I'm, I'm not affiliated with the brand and anymore, but even if I was, I, I could receive this feedback and and you know, see it for its merit of the level of confusion with the grading system.

Jules · 22:13

I think that's a different conversation of people who are like early brands and no attribute a lot of that to Jade Leaf saying Jade Leaf created ceremonial grade or culinary grade in that terminology. And that's just not true.

Jules · 22:28

That existed. And you know, we have mark here with the brand. It was a grading system that helped early matcha lovers understand format and use case. Because when I, when I see that feedback and it's, you know, it's confusing, you know, like now we, we have brands creating their own grades, calling things for, you know, like it's just this, this melting pot of information where people and the consumers have to kind of go through that themselves and try to understand well, what is high quality and what is low quality?

Jules · 22:57

And can I trust this source or not? Earlier in the Jade Leaf time when grades like ceremonial and culinary existed prior to the, you know, the founding of the brand helped early matcha consumers today understand, you know, is something matcha like, how can I introduce matcha?

Jules · 23:15

Is it something that I want to incorporate in my life? Is it something that I like? And, and I think it's incredible when you start from that place because I have a lot of gratitude for the Starbucks is and some of the brands that help us understand what matcha is, especially at a time when it was a relatively new ingredient to consumers outside of Japan and help us evolve in our own love of it.

Jules · 23:40

Like my my first experience with matcha was a tea bag, you know, a blend of matcha and sencha. I have since then progressed in my own journey and I love the high end. I mean, I'm willing to spend money on some really good matcha because it helps me understand and develop, you know, my palette for matcha. But I think there's, there's a level of gratitude I have for the, you know, the matcha brands, the early matcha brands and tea brands of the world or even places like Starbucks that brought in our scope, you know, and, and that's to the level of education we have as consumers where we can continue to evolve. And so, you know, as someone in

Jules · 24:17

the role of marketing at Jade Leaf years ago, I think it's an important discussion to have, you know, what is this grading system, You know, if the consumer is a lot more discerning today as they once were, and I think that's amazing and they're questioning a lot of things.

Marc · 24:32

And I think there's an opportunity for some of the earlier Matcha brands to evolve alongside them. Oh, yeah. I'm a bit surprised that we haven't seen more of that actually. These like things that everyone are holding on to.

Marc · 24:47

It's a bit of a mystery actually. Just I, you know, for like Zach Mungan, Mangan, I don't know how to pronounce his last name, wrote an interesting piece a couple years ago. Now I think about why they don't use ceremonial grade even. But like he specifically cites, you know, it hurts us on SEO. Like it's something people want something that people like search for, right?

Marc · 25:09

And I think that's like a large reason why everyone does it because it's just like cast the swipe with net in this very busy, noisy online environment that we live in. And but it was an interesting brand positioning, But I'm surprised that more people aren't like pivoting, especially it's like some great influencers.

Marc · 25:27

I feel like this is very consumer LED actually, or like just calling BS. It's like it's a meaningless term. Everyone's abusing it and like people still stick to it. And I think it's, I don't know, it's a bit of a mystery when wonder if you guys like have some insight into why so many people keep it?

Ryan · 25:43

I think it's it's largely a disconnect between a very small group of people who dig into the details and have taken the time to. That's a great point. Understand matcha and it feels very noisy because they can be very opinionated folks. And then the actual average consumer, the mom in the Midwest who loves a matcha latte and doesn't have time to really get into the nitty gritty of the Japanese culture behind it or why 1 is more expensive than another. She just wants a good product, right? So if you're, if you're in the biz like we are, then then you can feel like there's a lot of noise. And then you could ask someone

Ryan · 26:17

else and they're like, you know, it doesn't seem like a big controversy to me, friends trying to sell a product and they're trying to describe it to me so that I can understand it in two seconds and without having to spend an hour.

Ryan · 26:31

So the terms are the terms. Whether they were invented by a Western marketer or, you know, had some deep history in Japan is is somewhat irrelevant. At the end of the day, you need to trust the person selling you a product and, and if their descriptors match the expectation with that you're, that you're receiving, then that's great.

Ryan · 26:52

And if it doesn't, then don't buy from them again. I, I, I think I've maybe become a little jaded and maybe a little tired of being in the food and beverage world in general. And honestly, in in any business, marketers will say whatever they want.

Marc · 27:09

And I would say this is even more like annoying and frustrating in the supplement world, which we dabbled in a bit. You can literally say anything and you'll find products that were labels are just completely wrong and and straight up lying. And maybe some of it is bad faith, like they're they're trying to fool people or maybe it's just ignorance and they they didn't know that the per the seller themselves, right. But so marketing you have to take, you know, with a with a grain of salt and Jade Leaf, we tried our best to educate people.

Marc · 27:38

It's like, hey, we're calling this ceremonial. Here's how we define that. Like it should be tasty, prepared as tea and not too bitter and come from first harvest. Like those were our tenets and and that's why we're calling it that.

Marc · 27:50

So you can you as the American consumer can kind of try to start to grasp why is this more expensive and what should I expect from a taste standpoint? But we we always would say like, yeah, some people make their, you know, traditional tea with low quality second or third harvest and they love it.

Marc · 28:08

And some people won't bake cookies with anything less than a $50 tin of ceremonial matcha. You know, it's the consumer who makes the call and they need to to trust the the person selling it to them and, and the brands that are misrepresenting.

Marc · 28:23

You would hope, and this doesn't always happen immediately, which again is frustrating, but you would hope overtime consumers pick up on that and they just stop buying from them. And the people who are describing their products and pricing them correctly will rise to the top and be the ones that that consumers gravitate towards.

Marc · 28:40

But yeah, you could cry foul all day and be like, I can't believe people are calling it this and that they're going to do that. You know, that's, that's marketing. That's, that's not the world we live in. So yeah, we we just try to be good stewards and very thoughtful in the way that we describe things, and that's really all you can do. That's an interesting point because you you don't you not only see that in the West, right, like this whole ceremonial culinary grade, you know, distinctions. You see it in Japan too, like all these XX no mukashi and XX no shiro or like they're definite, you know, like mukashi is for, you know, koicha and no

Marc · 29:17

shiro is for usucha. But you see, you know, these terms being mixed-use for different grades all the time, even with distinct men. It's. Yeah, and there's, there's traders in Japan who are, you know, misrepresenting their product.

Marc · 29:34

I. Know there's there's good ones and bad ones even over there, but they're doing the same thing. They're trying to connect with their consumer and help them understand what to expect and why they should pay a certain amount for it.

Ryan · 29:47

Makes sense? You know, I think about 10 years ago, right, like say hypothetically Jade Leaf used the terminology today or the grading system of first harvest and just second harvest. And instead of calling the ceremonial, ceremonial and culinary culinary it was like back 10 years ago when matcha was.

Jules · 30:06

The landscape of matcha in the US is very different than it is today. The level of education consumers had around matcha is very different than it is today. How confused people would be if we were, you know, introduce matcha and say this is a first harvest matcha you with that marketing is necessary to educate.

Jules · 30:27

Yes is a level of sexiness we need to bring to it to help educate people and that's that's the job of someone in marketing is to do that and do it in a way what where there's still an opportunity to educate and so you know over you know especially and I share this in in our earlier episode that you know, Marc and I very deep and passionate about matcha.

Jules · 30:50

We launched a, you know, this existed prior to me joining Jade Leaf. Marc launched a limited edition collection and that's something we continue to do each year. It then fell up into a greater campaign called Know Your Matcha around trusting source and transparency.

Jules · 31:07

And so that's something each year we were challenging ourselves and we were wanting to source the best because as we had, you know, our Evergreen products like the ceremonial and the culinary. We wanted to introduce something as, as we developed in our own journey and then recognized, yeah, I, I want to develop my palette for the single cultivars and different blends or different matcha from various tea growing prefectures. How do we bring that to our customer and educate them on that?

Jules · 31:34

And so we would release very limited batches to test the market. And this is earlier in the time where there wasn't necessarily a big demand for the single cultivar options like we see today. And it was incredible to see the level of enthusiasm we got from our our consumer and how we educated in videos and we were talking about how you develop your palette.

Jules · 31:57

And it's a very different style of marketing. I think with brands today where you see them just sharing like this is right and this is wrong and this is what you do and this is what you don't do, I think. And this is this is, you know, like we were part of that brand and now we launched the Matcha program. A lot of those core tenets of how we educate still continue to be at the forefront, which is here's the framework and do with it what you want.

Jules · 32:24

You know, like, here's some ideas and these are things to consider, but what you choose to do with it is really up to you. Because at the end of the day, to Marc's point, the consumer drives all of it their driver's seat.

Ryan · 32:35

And so, yeah, it's such an interesting, interesting time in matcha that we're seeing compared to where it was years ago and where it will be 10 years from now. Yeah, totally. So with the matcha program, like how was that born? And like, what are your goals for this movement page, Substack, Instagram, TikTok.

Jules · 32:57

It's multiple identities, you guys. So if I can go back a few years, matcha education has continued to be something that I as a consumer has been very passionate about, more so privately. It hasn't been something outside of, you know, at my Jade Leaf time where I was in front of the camera lot, you know, in content, talking about specifically the limited edition collection and educating our customers on that.

Jules · 33:23

I've had my own journey behind the scenes where I wanted to develop my own palettes, I wanted to educate myself and we all know it is so challenging to access education from origin from tea farmers and tea producers. You really have to commit the time and the effort to extract that information. And a lot of the education I have, I attribute to people in the industry that I've admired, that I've become friends with. Marc has been my source of matcha education. People in the industry who are behind the scenes who don't have public platforms.

Jules · 33:59

It's, I mean, unless you know who they are that you're not going to find, you're not going to access what's in their brain unless you literally speak to them because don't they have private Instagram pages? They don't have a public platform. And so I'm very grateful to have connected with many people that have allowed me to develop my own understanding of matcha and challenge my own thinking.

Jules · 34:21

And you both are a part of that as well. I have learned so much from the both of you and just the time you've taken to share the level of education and will continue to do over the years. So I'm sure I'll continue to challenge my own thinking as well.

Jules · 34:35

But outside of Jade Leaf, as I've worked with other matcha brands advising or consulting, I grew frustrated because we're matcha education, matcha education. We need to educate the customer. This is a big opportunity. No one else is doing it in the ways in which I I envisioned and the ways in which, you know, I have conversations with industry friends behind the scenes, You know, we, I see matcha creators sharing their content and when I see it, I think it's great. I'm like, wow, they feel very passionate. They're doing their own matcha reviews. But as I hear the language in which they're educating the masses because they have big

Jules · 35:11

platforms, I'm just like, you know, like there's a meme of this girl quietly screaming and she's like, that's how I feel where I'm just like, yes, but this or yes, and this. And so I at that point had a very private page.

Jules · 35:27

I didn't post much. And at that point, I was so similar to Marc, kind of jaded. I was just like, do I want to go down that rabbit hole? Like, do I want to subject myself to having an opinion And, and now like receiving all this criticism or critical feedback from people?

Jules · 35:44

Like I kind of like my piece, you know, I've been working really hard at my piece and and as I would try to then be that turn to spearhead that education through the matcha brands that I worked with in a more hands off capacity.

Jules · 35:59

Ultimately it was up to their team whether and wanted to implement that matcha education. While I do believe it to be one of the most important content pillars any matcha brand should share, for the brands that I consulted and advised, it's just like not the biggest priority. It's like, cool, maybe at one point, but it wasn't the bottom line.

Jules · 36:20

There was always a campaign. There was always a product launch that took precedent. And so we never saw that level of education. And I thought, you know, like, who is going to do this? And it's not. It's time. Brands aren't.

Jules · 36:34

It's not to say that brands aren't doing it, but like I mentioned, if a brand has a robust matcha program, it is for their customers that source from them. Yeah, it's part of like the package. It is, it's the value that they bring.

Jules · 36:49

And there are incredible matcha brands who I know are very hands on with their customers. Now, average matcha, you know, I'm sorry, the average cafe that may not necessarily be sourcing through them, they're left to find their own information.

Jules · 37:03

Cafe operators are very busy. They're likely not going to read a book on matcha. There's many books on, you know, matcha or Japanese tea. But it's about sourcing. It's about the different cultivars. It's about what happens at Origin.

Jules · 37:16

But now how do you take that information and make it relevant to your operations? And you know, as Marc and I were talking and I started, I just started to share content on my personal page on Instagram. And one of them in particular was a 3 minute long video about hand whisking.

Jules · 37:33

I had no idea that it would receive the level of engagement. I'm like, this is a three long video of me talking. And I thought because so there was a part of me that felt FOMO after I exited Jade Leaf, I was very reclused, very behind the scenes. I didn't want to be in front of a lot of content. And as I got back on Instagram, like I was off Instagram for a couple of years, when I got back on, I started to see voices in Matcha primarily from matcha creators who, you know, nurtured a really engaged community.

Jules · 38:06

And I thought I missed the mark, you know, like I, you know, these are things I care about and I want to continue to advocate on, but I, I didn't take advantage of Instagram at that time outside of my matcha pages. Like it's a very different style of content.

Jules · 38:19

And I knew myself. I was like, I, I'm not going to be a matcha creator that does matcha reviews. You know, I do that for myself behind the scenes with my own tea journal where I write notes, but it's just not my, it's, I think there are great people doing it. It wasn't my lane.

Jules · 38:34

And so I kind of felt like, what can I even talk about regarding matcha that would add value? Like, you know, there's different brands educating. I don't want to take that responsibility for them. But when I started to work with cafes and I was consulting them on their matcha programs, the same question started to come up and wow, this is like baseline matcha fundamentals. And there's so much confusion around it, like which preparation method, what's the water temperature do you use? What is the proper batching ratio? Things that, you know, I think on our end we're like, well, yeah, it makes sense because we,

Jules · 39:11

you know, we work in the industry and we, you know, that's the world that we live in. But I recognized an opportunity and I was like, well, there's an opportunity to not only share this, but the cafes that I consult they, you know, I'm hands on with them.

Jules · 39:25

And we're, we're talking and, you know, deep in conversation about their matcha program, how to design their menu, how to story tell around matcha, how to prepare matcha. And I was like, well, why don't I just talk about this on Instagram? So that post in particular received a lot of engagement and questions and really great questions, you know, questions like really, I mean, and then also constructive and critical feedback.

Jules · 39:49

And in all of it's valid, right? Like any feedback or any feedback or criticism that anyone shares is relative to where they are in their own journey. A reflection of them, not you. Yes, and I've received personal like, you know personal attacks and that's fine You know like years ago that would have broken me.

Jules · 40:09

Today I'm just like, well, thank you because the critical feedback and the constructive feedback actually inspired the Matcha program because challenging to take to to give context in a 90 second video, a 3 minute video and an Instagram caption with character limits. And so although I want to share more, I it's so challenging to do that in an Instagram, you know, a piece of content. So the Substack idea came about one night when, you know, Marc and I were talking about matcha education and I was trying to respond to a constructive piece of feedback that I got in a comment.

Jules · 40:46

And if you go through the most in my recent, you know, in some of the recent content, you'll see that some of my responses are like paragraph long because try to be thoughtful and, you know, knowledge of what they're saying and maybe should alternate perspective or even say, you know what, you're right. That's great for the feedback and it got pretty mentally daunting.

Jules · 41:06

You know, like outside of the content, Marc and I are launching a company have personal goals. I'm like, it's, it's, it's like this, this is a job on its own is to respond and to to curate content on social. It was like, how do I take that and now scale it in a way where it can be deeper dives. People, people can do with it what they want. And so the Substack idea came about. To just to give a long form space for these ideas to breathe.

Jules · 41:32

Yeah, and there's, you know, micro content that you know, you know, connects back to that. But it was an interesting thing, you know, and I'm grateful for the feedback, the the constructive and the critical because it inspired the idea and it kind of had the aha moment of this is what you can talk about as it relates to content about matcha on social media.

Ryan · 41:53

The most valid piece of feedback or criticism as you were, because I can imagine what these like content threads look like. Like I just have things like because I love going down those rabbit holes sometime, but like what?

Ryan · 42:06

What change? What was a perspective changing, one that like kind of prompted? Yeah, one in particular, someone gave me feedback on my syntax and they gave feedback about how I position something in a video. Was the tail end of a video.

Jules · 42:21

And I said it was about batching where I basically said, you know, like if you use this framework, you, I don't remember what I said verbatim, but the ending was without sacrificing quality. And so they had a valid point of like whether you batch, if you batch, you're sacrificing quality. It's just a matter of time because they were referencing oxidation.

Jules · 42:42

And so I shared my perspective on it. And at one point, I kind of just took a step back because other people were chiming in. I, I don't necessarily think in my defense on behalf of me, but they were sharing their own perspective. And then I sat with it for about a week and I rewatched the video.

Jules · 42:59

I read their comments again. I listened. And I, I'm just like, yeah, there is an opportunity for me to refine my communication and to be thoughtful about and, and not to say that I wasn't thoughtful, but to, to consider that and how things can be interpreted.

Jules · 43:18

And it's a lot of mental work, but it was one piece of feedback that has that I've carried with me and brought into every other piece of content from that point. And you know, in recent, in recent contents, the feedback hasn't been so critical. And he's just like waiting.

Jules · 43:36

I'm like, why isn't someone mad about this happened? But it was really helpful because I think feedback is a gift. Feedback helps learn feedback helps you grow as a business owner. If you can be receptive to feedback, whether you agree with it or not, I think if you can take it and try to learn from something or, or you just, you know, sometimes feedback is feedback and it's someone's opinion.

Jules · 44:00

And there's not not much that I want to or will do with it, but that was one in particular that I'm grateful for. So thank you to that person to say that I won't continue to make mistakes with how things are positioned.

Ryan · 44:14

You know, my own learning journey is continuing to evolve, I think, as we we all are. Right. Well, you're getting the conversation started. Like that's what's so necessary. Like it's short form because like sometimes we put some stuff out that I feel is a little controversial and we kind of internally debate about it.

Ryan · 44:31

Like, should we say that, like criticize people that call Chinese matcha fake or Korean matcha fake? You know, it's like, I don't want to put this out. I don't want to deal with these comments. I. Don't want to engage with anyone that's going to engage with that in such a negative way.

44:46

And then we did it and like, actually it's kind of crickets Sometimes it's a little hard to predict, too. It is. And it's so funny because I'll put time into, you know, the structure and which I want to share content and I'll talk with Marc and I'm like, hey, Marc, there's this idea. I don't know.

45:03

Well, you know, if it's something about he's just do it. You know, it's it's valid and there's always going to be constructive feedback. There's always going to be someone that has an opinion that doesn't necessarily agree or, you know, with you or, or feels like it's unfounded.

45:19

And Despite that, I think it's so important because no matter what you do, I think I could be talking about like, for example, like my dog passed away. Her name was Umami and I got one of the, you know, there was a, a stuffed toy replica that you can have made. Yeah, if I created content with her and that people would say that that was unhealthy when it for me, you know, like there's always going to be someone who has an opinion. And that shouldn't stop anyone from sharing content, especially if it's something that could add value or invite a different perspective.

45:54

Like do you, you know, it's important, especially in matcha where the market isn't as mature as coffee. You know, we're kind of we're muchas today's work. I think coffee was 15 years ago. One of the questions we got in the communities questions, the AMA that I put out yesterday was what are your thoughts on cream tops, lemonades, you know, those dessert matcha drinks? And that's where coffee was 15 ish years ago and 15 years ago. So I think it's interesting because the customer likes what the customer likes.

46:27

I think any Cafe that is willing to adopt matcha and willing to find ways to to promote their business and drive traffic, I think that's really smart. Personally, it's not my cup of tea. Like I don't want the cream tops and and the overly sweet drinks with purees.

46:43

But that's just me and it doesn't mean I'm right or they're wrong. It's we like what we like. And I think that there are different ways to service customers. Yeah, there are always will be people liking that, you know, drink, you know, like it's it's really, really like similar to coffee in terms of the development, you know, like the coffee, like the whole latte, latte art, the latte boys, you know, back in the through kind of a shame by all these like serious coffee drinkers.

47:14

Like, I feel like it's really the same narrative when we're talking about, you know, the matcha latte people, you know, like they're not drinking real matcha. You know, it's well, it gets people interested into matcha and, you know, it's generally if it's tasty, if it makes you happy, if, you know, it's not doing any harm to, you know, human or to the world like you should.

47:36

We should accept it as a reality. Yeah. That's a good. Point like a push in a pool kind of thing. If so many like the, the dogmatic people in our industry are trying to push this is a product. You should like this product. I love this product because of this, this and this and you should like it for the same reasons versus like literally giving people what they want right there. Consumers, there's consumptions, there's cafes, drinks for these people.

48:00

Like if that's what they want, you know what, who, who am I to pass judgement that they're not enjoying it the way I think that they should. Now there's like 1/2 argument to be made that if you're using like really scarce matcha, that's really low allocations do is everything about that made that matcha specials probably getting erased by like 90%.

48:23

But you know, on the other side, I've in, you know, both Sam and I spent quite a bit of time in Bangkok for work in the past and the matcha scene there is insane. And you see people taking like really rare cultivars like Narino and very thoughtfully making lattes out of them that are fantastic high quality products, very limited allocation tea. But like, they're so like particular that if like the barista gets the whisking ratio wrong by a few milliliters, they don't serve it.

48:56

And they make you a new one, right? Like it is dialed in and optimized to the milliliter. I'm like, they are just meticulous. They're like 3 Michelin star restaurants for matcha at some of these places. Is that, yeah, it's MTCH.

49:09

It was really that was like very shocking to hear just how like if it is not the way the recipe is, they don't serve it and they don't charge the barista or anything for making the mistake. Like someone will drink it. Like they save it for someone like in the back, like who's a share among employees, but they don't serve it to the customer. You know, there's like these competing things because you can use it in a latte and it's delicious and it's intentional and like it's probably priced appropriately, positioned appropriately.

49:37

So like, you can really argue both sides of this. Makes it a fascinating topic I. Think it's really about intention, right? Like because that really reminds me of chanoyu like you need to put your bowl like how many times on the tatami and that's, you know, a practice that they really want to perfect with.

49:55

And I think that, you know, like when we're talking about retrofitting all these traditional culture, like people are retrofitting the tools. But I think that you should really, what you really should do is retrofitting the idea, the intentionality, the idea about care, the idea about, you know, preparing the best thing possible with your within your capability instead of, you know, like using Chaseki.

50:18

Yeah. Well, there's a level of excellence. Yeah, Gary. Yeah, it's just a perfect word for it. It's just where and how that excellence is applied. And like maybe some of the foam top stuff, you know, it's a quick like fast-paced environment.

50:34

The person is just grabbing it to go once, you know, a nice balanced caffeine profile on their way to work. Or maybe they want to have that contemplative experience pretty much as being used as an ingredient. And then like who am I to judge on that side too?

50:49

So it's there actually really isn't a right or a wrong. It's I think on on those points. It's so it's a weird argument, especially for these traditionalists because these people who are these staunch Japanese culture defenders, they should go back and take a trip to Japan and look at what the Japanese are doing to matcha. Like what we were recently at a pretty, like touristy site and this matcha soft surf place advertised that they're, they use Okumidori matcha and I think was equivalent to $400.00 a kilo.

51:25

And that was like on the advertisement, it was the best matcha soft serve I've ever had. And like, like these staunch defenders of Japan and Japanese culture would like, if that existed anywhere else would probably be extremely upset.

51:40

Yeah, because like the wholesale price per kilo, I mean that's a special product when you're if it's not expensive. So it's a lot of hypocrisy. But if you look around like matcha noodles, matcha biscuits, like matcha everything, like it's like people are doing all these things to matcha, you know, themselves inside and you're outside of Japan, you are criticizing other people doing the same thing, which is kind of crazy. No, it's a great point and there's a lot of presumption. And Ryan, to your point, I think it's people that actually have never been to Japan.

52:14

I've talked to not just any Japanese person, because that isn't really fair, but like someone who's in the macho world in some way. You know, over our years at Jade Leaf, we met dozens of farmers and tea masters and tea traders and even tea, tea ceremony hosts.

52:32

And I didn't meet a single one who expressed some offense or indignation around how Americans were coming to enjoy matcha. In fact, they celebrated it. They thought it was the coolest thing. They're like, Oh my God, you know, boba in it now. And they're making lattes.

52:48

Like they encouraged it. They, they love that people enjoyed something that they made. And I think that's very Japanese tenet. They craft something with care and then they want people to enjoy it, but they're not prescriptive so much on on how the person does end up enjoying it.

53:05

So yeah, they they celebrate it to A, to a person, at least the ones I've interacted with in in my time there. Yeah, we've had very similar experiences. Yeah. This really is like self criticism culturally speaking from outside of.

53:23

Yeah, I think it, it may be an American construct of we, we think we're stepping on everyone else's cultures because ours is like a mishmash of, of all these other influences. And that's how we started as a melting pot.

53:36

And now there's this backlash of how we're somehow dishonouring the way they do it in Italy or the way they do it in France or the way they do it in Japan, when in fact we, we largely aren't. And, and those, those cultures are, are excited that we like their stuff and, and they think it's neat and creative. A lot of the times the, the ways that we're coming to enjoy it. And sometimes those things trickle back to those countries. Yeah, intention really matters.

Jules · 54:01

I mean, if you come from a point of view of admiration, I think it's fine. But the people are calling out like, you know, other people being culturally appropriating stuff simply because they want to enjoy it in their own ways.

Jules · 54:13

I think it's a little bit too much. Well, that's that's another topic. Is it appropriation? Is it appreciation? And I argue on the side of I'm grateful for the early US or Europe based matcha founders that brought Matcha and introduced it to a new market. You know, I don't even know if I would even be a matcha consumer today had it not been for them.

Jules · 54:41

And so I think that while I do, you know, I, I think drawing back to trust and source, it's like if you know, there are brands who see opportunity in it, who could care less about the product. And you know, if you have a discerning eye, you can see that through the in ways in which they talk about matcha, if they talk about their product, how they market it. And there are brands who they've devoted their lives to the product.

Jules · 55:06

And you can see that as well, you know, like, I think it's really again, up to the customer. And I think in the level of education that I admire from the Specialty Matcha Podcast, it's you're presenting information and customers now or Matcha consumers take that and question their own thinking. And they bring that level of that critical eye to other, other brands, you know, like the brands that are dogmatic, that say this is real, this is fake, we're the best screw you. You know, like it's a matter of time because that I mean, that worked early on, that that working worked 10 years ago. It's not working today.

Jules · 55:42

And. 100%. And I've had conversations with some of these founders that they, they are, they believe what they believe. And I think that's awesome. But there's an opportunity here to help the industry evolve to provide information to customers that are seeking it.

Jules · 55:57

And we know that because, I mean, I mean, in subreddits, I have seen the Specialty Matcha Podcast referenced, you know, as you know, this is what Ryan and and Sam have said. This is, you know, this is what the facts that they're presenting. I believe this for this reason.

Jules · 56:13

So there is, and through my own content and the Matcha program that Mark and I have shared, we're surprised by the level of engagement that we've gotten. I mean, it's, it's, it's still in its infancy. You know, the, the sub stack launched 3 weeks ago on a whim. Thank you to the constructive feedback and the critical feedback that inspired it.

Jules · 56:33

The Instagram page I think launched soon after that. Our TikTok page launched maybe a week and a half ago and it's almost at 600 followers. Oh wow. Wow. Nice. But the level of engagement that it's getting in viewership is, I mean, for any brand, macho brand founder listening, if you aren't investing in education, and that also means educating yourself and and having that growth mindset to question your own thinking, you're missing an opportunity to connect deeply with where your customer is because where they are today.

Jules · 57:10

You know, like in from the lens of marketing in matcha, many matcha brands will share their own narrative that supports their goals. You know, this much fake. Ours isn't Matcha from China and Korea are bad. Ours isn't. And I'm not saying I agree with that or not. I think there are incredible, you know, tea growing prefectures outside of Japan that are heavily stigmatized as you both have also mentioned as well. But where the customer is today, you know, hypothetically one of the questions is like, if we started a matcha brand, what would we do differently?

Jules · 57:41

It would vesting in education and and not education that serves our brand, but education that adds value to the matcha consumer and how we can continue to partner with them and help give them framework to question what's what's out there in the market because it's confusing. It's a confusing market and you know, that requires a level of self reflection, I think from people on the other side, some matcha brand founders to question what they know. Like, I'm willing to say, yeah, I was wrong or I didn't know that there are many that are like, Nope, this is right, this is wrong, this is good, this is

Jules · 58:16

bad. And and you'll service a a portion of the market, but I think you'll you'll miss out on a great opportunity to stand out against the very saturated matcha market today because all of that, you know, the good bad much is better than coffee. For whatever reason, that's continuing to being perpet. That's being perpetuated.

Jules · 58:37

It's being perpetuated for years and it doesn't really resonate. Consumers are far more discerning than they were 10 years ago. So, well, I just my two cents, it's much education has been and continued to be a passion of mine. And you know, I learn a lot from these creators as well, you know, like the level of time that they have invested in their own learning journey.

Zongjun · 59:01

I am so surprised by that because it's so challenging to access that information unless you are at origin and you have access to people in the industry. Even at origin it's difficult and everything that you're told at origin is not true. That's the other very annoying part is sorting through all of that, very upset.

Zongjun · 59:20

We have an article in a future episode about Uji Matcha. But like, even if you're at origin, you're being told this is Uji Matcha, this is Uji Matcha. And if you really were to see where that tea was from, it's definitely not from Uji.

Zongjun · 59:36

It's like we mean it's why are you calling it Uji Matcha? It's, I don't know, it's a lot of sorting and it's like, where do you start? Like especially if you're coming in fresh, it's really difficult to just even build the foundational layer to be skeptical.

Zongjun · 59:51

And then when you're at origin, it's often culturally inappropriate to be skeptical. Like when you like, if I were to go in and ask, this is Uji Matcha. But is it from Uji grown tencha like that? Like everything about. That question is very rude, like, and it's like an implicit culture.

Zongjun · 1:00:09

So it's like then you got to figure out, OK, how exactly do I ask this? Do I ask this at all? Like it's it's. So. Tricky to learn. I think it's, but actually there's probably never been a better time to Start learning about Matcha with, with the resources that are out there and the translation tools and the access to these primary documents and to interviews and hearing everyone's perspective.

Zongjun · 1:00:32

So I guess that's a, you know, a nice silver lining. And I think, you know, all these influencers giving context and dimensionalizing Matcha in new ways will really help fight against these price hikes that we're seeing.

Zongjun · 1:00:44

Because my fear and I feel this already actually is that the whole industry is very stale. We have the same products that aren't increasing in quality. The variety is not really increasing, right? We're seeing the same cultivars from the same regions or the same blends from the same regions. And nothing is increasing or changing in this whole market except price.

Zongjun · 1:01:06

And you know, these prices are increasing by 50% sometimes they're doubling. Every single consumer in the entire world that drinks matcha needs to be OK paying more money for the same or worse products. And that is like a horrible state for this industry to be in.

Zongjun · 1:01:25

And like what I'm hoping with, especially with a lot of this consumer led movement is if there's a little more dynamism, a little more change, you know, pushing into origins outside of Japan, maybe opening their minds to other types of milled tea to dimensionalize this in some new ways that take pressure off the system. So that like there are very interesting and delicious things for people to try that don't cost $40 a can, right? Like that's just not accessible by most people. We're $50 a can over the really interesting stuff. But you know, we praise on the Specialty Matcha Podcast, like that stuff costs $100 a can, if

Zongjun · 1:02:04

you can even find it, right? Like that is not an interesting or dynamic or inclusive world, right? Like, and so it's like I really like to see people push further in their own education, finding these interesting pockets of value and deliciousness is and I just hope.

Jules · 1:02:22

Yeah, it's that's my little rant on that. I feel like we could have many rants on that because I even on that topic, I feel like there's an opportunity for consumers to question their own thinking. I, I shared a video about how to, you know, some framework around developing your own palette. And that was fired by a lot of the matcha review content that I see where some of the earlier creators who started reviewing Matcha brands, you know, there's a level of admiration and respect that consumers have for them. And so as I would watch their content and I would see other creators that are trying to

Jules · 1:03:01

build up their pages, share Matcha reviews, I'm hearing the same language and the same framework and even the same tasting notes, you know, like tasting the same matcha. And they're saying, yeah, I do taste lemon, or I do taste this, or I do taste that. And I'm like, that's great.

Jules · 1:03:15

I think it's helpful to have that fundamental foundational framework. But to now lean in on your own palate. And, well, how do you even do that? So I was trying to educate. These are the things like lean in on the foods that you know, taste different foods challenge your palate.

Jules · 1:03:32

You know, sometimes it's not only just a flavor, but a memory or other sensorial aspects of it that you can lean on outside of just tasting chestnuts or snap peas or it doesn't have, I mean, it's. Not. Like a Michelin, you know, menu. And I think that's great, but for someone who's never been to a Michelin restaurant or doesn't know what snap pea or pea tendrils taste like, like, what do they lean on? You know, like I did a matcha tasting with a Jade Leaf, a limited edition collection years ago with my nephews. We're at the time six and four.

Jules · 1:04:07

OK, well, we did a tasting and we tasted some really good stuff. We, we also tasted different gyokuros and different senchas. And I didn't tell them what they should taste. I said, you know, tell me, tell me what you taste. And one of them tasted Lucky Charms 1 tasted soup when they tasted gyokuro, is like, well, that makes sense because it's brothy, you know, like it has that, that mouth feel to it, but they're drawing on the foods that they know it doesn't mean that they're wrong.

Jules · 1:04:34

And so I, I even think within, you know, inviting a level of objectivity at the consumer level, because you know, on the end of, you know, knowing, you know, being very familiar with the Jade Leaf brand and Jade Leaf operating at the scale that they have and, and you know, they do now I see matcha reviews of Jade Leaf against other matcha brands and there are matcha brands that source from Jade Leaf.

Jules · 1:04:58

And so when I see reviews of these offerings, you know, JP get review and this friend, I'm like, they're kind of the same. You know, it's it people take the framework of Jade Leaf being maybe a US founded brand and being like, you know, it's lower quality. This is entry level, you know, whatever whatever notions they have about it against this brand. And you know, I know on the back end of well. It's the same product.

Jules · 1:05:26

And it got a much higher rating. That's where you need to lean in on your palette and lean in on the education and not necessarily discounting a brand because it's the lower, you know, like a lower price point. This price was fair and accessible because we were operating at a scale in which we were able to do that. Not many brands, especially US funded brands, operate at that scale.

Marc · 1:05:48

Yeah, to get prices lower. So you know that's just a some two since Marc, I don't know if you want to add anything to that. No, no, I agree with everything you guys were saying. I think to your point, Matcha is still early in the curve where where this type of confusion exists and people are trying to understand what's good and what's bad and, and the descriptors are one way to try to understand that, that the marketers are saying.

Marc · 1:06:14

But the other big signal is price. And again, because it's a newer market, people can kind of price things to their own, their own desires and sometimes do it incorrectly. Like they'll, they'll tell a story and say like, This is why this tin of Matcha is $60.00 when when in fact, like the cost to produce it wasn't nearly that much. But if they're able to tell a good enough story, they can charge that kind of price.

Marc · 1:06:39

And I think that those kind of disconnects will even themselves out over time, but never disappear. It's the same thing as the wine industry I would always draw lots of connections to because they're to the day there's there's wines that cost a lot of money for unknown reasons, because of a rarity factor, not because of the cost of production or or even a quality advantage.

Marc · 1:07:03

It's just they're being priced by the person who wants to price them. And if they can convince people that it is worthy of that price, then great. It's like art. They can't. Yeah, yeah, art is. Then it's the eye of the beholder, right? Like what Someone attributes value to it. And The funny thing is I think this would exist in matcha 2. You'll probably do taste test where you take a $60.00 tin and $20 one and you'll blind taste test with someone and they'll be like this one's better without knowing the price. But if they had known the price beforehand, they would have kind of potentially thought

Marc · 1:07:36

differently. That happens with wine all the time. The sommelier will be tricked and given a cheap wine and they're like, this is amazing. And I taste few leather and tobacco. And you know, they'll elevate it because they didn't know.

Marc · 1:07:47

And then it'd be like, ha, that's actually 2 bucks. So it's a funny thing how we trick ourselves. And like I was saying, I think that that will always be present. But hopefully as the market matures, more and more people have a better sense of what should cost what and, and who's charging fairly for the, the type of quality that they're delivering.

Marc · 1:08:09

And so that's why I hope we had and what we tried to do at Jade Leaf and and what through the Matcha program trying to educate in that way as well. They need to trust their own judgment as we live in a paradigm where we had to be told what was good but like it's only flipping to you deciding yourself what's good. Yeah, it's a great point.

Jules · 1:08:29

I hope that like that's that's it keeps turning that way, yeah. Yeah. And I think that's the great part with brands that that share that level of education is here's the framework and now decide, you know, like question it, you know, I, I, in the last few weeks, I've received so many comments and DMS about what is the best way to do this?

Jules · 1:08:49

What is the best matcha brand? What is the best? And, and my responses to them. It's very similar to how I navigate my personal life when, when people, my friends and family ask me for advice, I'm never going to tell someone what to do. Like if some fools, what do I do in this situation? I try to ask them questions like, well, what is important to you and help them get to their own answer that they were going to find on their own.

Jules · 1:09:15

And same thing with with matcha questions and education. Best matcha brand. What is the best preparation for a cafe? It's so nuanced because every operation looks different. And I can't say you should hand whisk when I've never been in your cafe.

Jules · 1:09:29

I don't know what your velocity, I don't know what feed like, I mean, there's so much framework around going into your, your own data, look at your POS, see what's doing well, look at the feedback. And I know like on the business side, feedback can be really tough.

Jules · 1:09:47

Like we're all people. So when when someone criticizes something that you put your heart into and says something that is constructive or even critical, like that could be hard to receive. But if you can separate yourself and, you know, as if I was a cafe owner and I got feedback around my matcha, I would question, you know, what are we doing? Just like, how could we do something differently? People are saying it this way.

Jules · 1:10:11

How am I brewing it? How am I preparing it? What is my dosage like? What are the ratios like? Like there's so much to to ask ourselves versus going to someone like me, Marc, or yourselves and saying, hey, tell me what to do. What is the best?

Jules · 1:10:25

It's almost the wrong question because it's you don't have enough context to answer it. Yeah, because there's like 100 right answers, just like which one's like, which one's the right for you? That's. Yeah. That's a great point.

Jules · 1:10:39

And, and it's interesting because in the topic of hand whisking or even batching matcha, there are people who are going to say hand whisking is the best for whatever reason, Cafe operators that maybe manage both a coffee and matcha program will say batching matcha has been incredible for us and we actually take the necessary precautions to slow oxidation.

Jules · 1:10:59

And I think that's, that's great. I think the most important thing is you find a method or even structure matcha program that works for you. And, and that's how you differentiate yourselves. Because if we were to just essentially say this is the matcha program everyone should adopt, well, what would appreciate you from competitors in your community, you know, like I think bring our own flair.

Ryan · 1:11:19

That's such a good point too, because there's like you have to compare yourselves to the other cafes and like what is the unique value that you're bringing? Because if everyone does it in the same way, like that's super boring, right? That's like not any like richer thriving like industry from cafe drinks perspective.

Jules · 1:11:37

It's a what are like now I'm going to ask what's the best way to make a batch group? What are the principles that someone needs to know in a high velocity environment to make drinks quickly? I'll phrase it that way. To make drinks quickly, gosh, your, I mean your broader matcha. I'm going to lean back on the broader matcha program because it's it's not even just about the preparation method, but it's the systems you have in place.

Jules · 1:12:02

So it goes back to your, your, the barista training and education. Do they understand how you brew? No matter what preparation method you leverage, are they educated on it? Can they do it efficiently? Is your matcha station structured and designed efficiently? And, and I do this for fun.

Jules · 1:12:20

I go to a cafe and I just like to observe. And it's my version of people watching, you know, I'll watch. And I'm like. I do need to. And with within batching, there's its own set of considerations to like your ratio, how you're dispensing, how you're storing, how you're keeping it cool and batching.

Jules · 1:12:40

From what I've seen, and I'm just one person and I recognize that, but in my time over the last several years going to cafes and traveling, I've seen batching mostly done incorrectly. But it's not my length to say hey, you need to do this. Hopefully they find the content and can question their own methods themselves.

Jules · 1:13:00

But to sell or serve matcha at scale is going to be different in a high volume cafe as it is in a pop up Like their their own sets of considerations to explore. But I would argue if you are a cafe, a high volume cafe. So a cafe serving 100 plus drinks a day or even per hour because they do exist to explore methods and explore ways to evolve your broader matcha program.

Jules · 1:13:28

So what if that is batching matcha? And to do that at scale and efficiently? There are ways in which you can do that while still educating people on why you do it and how you try to maintain its quality. Because batching is stigmatized. Yeah, there was actually, there's a really interesting parallel in the coffee world.

Jules · 1:13:48

I've been into coffee actually as long as I've been into tea. And I moved to New York City in 2016 and it was right around the time when the narrative started switching between pour overs made to order and batching. And there was a new wave of Australian run cafes that took a really radical stance to me because I got into coffee at like the peak of the Blue Bottle era where you'd see like lines out the door.

Jules · 1:14:12

We're not compromising on quality. We're brewing everything to order. We don't care how long you have to wait. We are product focused companies like, oh wow, that's so cool. It's so cool that you can be a big brand and raise tons of VC funding and can kind of promote these concepts.

Jules · 1:14:29

And then I do started to hear these narratives about batching. And then you you buy a couple pour overs, 5-6 bucks, the person behind the bar, it looks like it's an inconvenience. They don't really care, right? Like this is just does not belong in this high past like high paced environment and they don't taste very good. And then like these cafes started popping up. They're like, yeah, we've like rethought batching. We're not going to let it sit for four hours. And it started to taste better.

Jules · 1:14:58

And then everyone in the city started switching where this whole pour over movement switched to a like batch brew. And I'd go in, I'd say ask for a batch brew. And I feel like we're right at that stage with matcha. It's like we're so close to it being very good and stigma just it just needs to deliver in the cup.

Jules · 1:15:14

Yeah. And, and that comes through the education because with these who are batching to optimize their workflow and, and create a better, you know, more efficient workflow. Yes, you're batching, but there are additional considerations like, you know, how do you batch? And even with that, like this could be its own conversation about batching because it's so complex and again, has to be tailored to that cafe's operation. So I don't have a simple answer to say this is, this is the way you batch, but there are things to consider if you choose to batch.

Jules · 1:15:48

And one of the best matcha drinks that I have had started as a batch and the batch and you know, the matcha they used kettle. So batch with such a high quality matcha offering and brand done really well, you know, and, and I've had similar in one of the our sub stacks, a different Cafe was using kettle and they batched and it was a very different experience. So you could take this, correct.

Jules · 1:16:11

And I think that's something cafes don't recognize is they, you know, they're of course wanting the high quality because that's what priest says, is this ceremonial great? Is this first harvest? So they're like, we absolutely should source high quality matcha, despite the format in which they serve the drinks, which is mostly iced matcha lattes. And if you could start with a really high quality products, But if you don't have the systems in place to protect its integrity through storage, through the proper, you know, water temperatures in which you dial in matcha artistry goes out the window, you know, then you

Jules · 1:16:43

know, what started as a a great high quality product doesn't translate over to the customer's experience. And so there's a big gap in in education at the food service level. And so there's some traditionalists and even a lot of the constructive feedback we've gotten were from tea houses and founders of matcha bars who are like, we would never batch.

Jules · 1:17:06

And I'm like, absolutely, this content isn't for you. I'm like I they had, they serve a very important purpose in the broader matcha market for people like me who have developed in my own journey and people like ourselves and, and I know Mark, we would absolutely love to sit in a tea house or a matcha bar, have our drinks whisk to order and eat the nuances of the different offerings they have. The average Cafe likely serves one offering of matcha from one brand have loosely teas, but you know, hand whisking to order with the tools that are available like the bamboo whisk or even, you know, silicone

Jules · 1:17:44

resin whisk. There are pros and cons to that and and from what we've seen, right. I know maybe last year I sent you a video about I created a video called Sad Matcha. Yeah, I remember song. Was it Angel? By Sarah McLachlan, who's like, you know, in the eye.

Jules · 1:18:03

It was just all this, like, yes, yes, I know. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sad looking damn melancholic. Song, yeah, and. So. They're, you know, yes. Cafes are hand whisking. But again, you know the question that that I brought up earlier in the conversation, is that enough? Like is that enough to to use these tools without the baseline knowledge about how to use it correctly, to use proper technique if a cafe is adopting it to honor culture or tradition, because there's so much more to that. Like I as a matcha consumer and even someone who questions that thinking of, you know, should a cafe even have to honor? Do we have, why do we have that

Jules · 1:18:43

expectations for food service just to honor culture? There's different ways to honor it. Can a barista tell me where the matcha's from? Can they out the terroir as they do coffee, you know, and and I can count on one hand how many times I've asked a question to different baristas that have a response with the level of confidence and conviction, because most times they're confused. They're like, I actually don't know where this from or I don't know what brand we use.

Jules · 1:19:10

And, and again, I don't think it's a cafe or a barista's fault. It has been difficult for them to access much education that is relevant to their operations. Yeah, that makes sense. And about the product itself, I mean just being. Told that something is ceremonial grade or good for lattes isn't interesting at all.

Jules · 1:19:30

Like what is there to remember about that product that you're serving versus like come from Kagoshima and has very volcanic soil and it's from Okumidori, which is generally very green cultivar and has his great taste. Like that's interesting. Like we aren't meeting with like these interesting things that someone can actually attach themselves to or just like being told that this is good or that's good or use a chasen and respect the culture.

Jules · 1:19:53

But like if we make it more product focus, I think that we meet coffee people where they're at coffee people are interested in coffee and all the specialty components of the coffee, which are totally and that's the name of this podcast.

Jules · 1:20:07

So we're advocating for it. Like the specialty aspects of Matcha just get totally ignored. Like no wonder they don't care. They don't know anything about AAA blend culinary slash ceremonial grade suitable for. Totally. There's nothing interesting about that product and there's just enough consumer are. Pulling that information out like it's not a expectation like abide from the consumer like the Breeze does, doesn't necessarily need to have that level of education to present to the consumer in a very professional way. Like, it's not an expectation yet, but I feel like, you know, as, you know, the matcha program

Jules · 1:20:51

educating more and more people know like more about matcha, you know, there will be more people pulling the information like from the baristas, from the industries. And that becomes the new expectation, the new status quo.

Jules · 1:21:02

Yeah, I I agree because baristas as it relates to matcha. Education. A lot of people will have one of their first matcha experiences at a cafe, whether it be a Starbucks or a local cafe. They're at the front lines of that education and they aren't resourced.

Jules · 1:21:19

And there was a comment recently I saw on Arby, you had her on the pod. Yeah, Arby, a matcha brand, had some critical feedback for her. And I read it and I. Responded to it because I thought, wow, it is, is actually a matcha brand's responsibility to educate the consumer, not a consumer like herself having to extract information that they expect of her, to educate her community.

Jules · 1:21:47

So if you start a matcha brand, there's a level of responsibility. I personally believe you have to access the information and to share it. And it's it's interesting for a matcha brand to have that expectation for a matcha consumer.

Zongjun · 1:22:01

Yeah, that playing the role of the police like you have the police. Yeah, it's a it's a wild time we're. In Yeah, yes, it is. Yeah, I'm personally curious about. Like has your mission? And mission changed moving from Jade Leaf into the Matcha program.

Jules · 1:22:18

And if there is like what are the changes and what you would not probably have done back in Jade Leaf and you are doing right now at the matcha program, Mark, I feel like I've been talking a lot. I know, very. Concisely, I think our. Understanding.

Marc · 1:22:35

Of where good matcha comes from, what makes good matcha, how consumers in the US should come to understand it or or enjoy it themselves has broadened Jade Leaf by by necessity, brands have to stand for something. So Jade Leaf particularly hung its hat on Japanese matcha that was certified organic.

Marc · 1:22:54

And then we promised a fair price, which people just had to trust us on. And those were the tenants of that brand. And other brands have different tenants, like we only sell Uji matcha or we only sell matcha of a certain quality level. And and it did Joe, his point earlier, it was frustrating when other brands would kind of be dismissive or, or outright mean, I guess, in the way they talked about other brands like that steak matcha or those guys, they're selling culinary because they're they're a bad company.

Marc · 1:23:23

Like that's not the case. I think different businesses can serve different consumers that are looking for different things. And that's all right. We don't have to poke fun at each other. And there are cases where people are, like we said before, misrepresenting or just doing something bad.

Marc · 1:23:37

They're calling something high quality when it isn't. They're charging too much money for something and, you know, soaking up that profit themselves. And it's not making it back to a tea farmer like you're expecting it to. Those brands, I hoped, again kind of fall to the wayside and eventually go away.

Marc · 1:23:53

But the idea that, yeah, brands are kind of calling each other out for stuff, I've never found to be super productive. But to answer your original question, what, how is our understanding expanded or what, how would we do things differently in a new mantra business?

Marc · 1:24:07

I think I would be more broadened in the way we source things. Again, as long as we're being honest and telling the proper story about where things came from. I do think good tea and good matcha tea in particular can come from other places outside of Japan. I do think there is great matcha that is not certified organic. Arguably it's it's better in a number of dimensions and can still be very clean and healthy and trustworthy. So I think we would, we would broaden outside of some of the constraints that we put on ourselves at Jade Leaf, you know, in this new age and with the the overarching goal of, again, just connecting more

Marc · 1:24:47

people with matcha that they will enjoy and allowing more people to enjoy it, allowing more people to access it, allowing more people to understand that the cool things about where it comes from or, you know, or the people behind it that made it amazing. You know, I think we would, we would broaden ourselves in those respects.

Ryan · 1:25:06

That's wonderful. Makes sense. Yeah. So as we wrap. Up. I know you guys are. Starting a new venture mindful, you guys want to talk a little bit about that store Jewel, you want to take that one So do you do you want? Me to well, I'll take it off and you can. Give it some some nuance.

Marc · 1:25:23

Yeah, Mindful and the the more complete name that we've now evolved to is Mindful Drops, which is very descriptive of what the product actually does. It stems from our love for matcha and in particular when you get into the the nerdy science behind matcha. There's there's a lot of reasons why matcha tastes the way it does and why it makes people feel the way it does. And one of its most magical properties, which is really almost exclusive to the green tea plant is the the natural occurrence of a compound called L theanine. And it does exist in some mushroom species, but in very small concentrations.

Marc · 1:25:59

It's the green tea plant where it really is expressive and, and people can get its benefits and its effects. And it's a very neat compound and very well studied at this point that hey, the occurrence of theanine alongside caffeine actually can in most folks promote a better sense of focus or a more calm alert feeling. And it draws back to cool history of like why monks turned to matcha in the 1st place or green tea in the 1st place. It helped them concentrate to, to meditate for extended periods.

Marc · 1:26:30

So it's a, it's a pretty magical compound and, and it has been extracted and fermented and isolated into a supplement form for people to take in the morning with caffeine to, to achieve a better focused state or reduced jitters.

Marc · 1:26:43

And it's taken in the evening as more of a relaxing agent to help you calm your mind and wind down and sleep better. So it's become a popular supplement, but for us coming from matcha, one of our favorite things was to always try to pair it with, you know, our caffeine in the morning.

Marc · 1:26:59

For a while now you've kind of either had to take take it alongside anything other than matcha to get that L-theanine effect. But what we're trying to do is make it more convenient and and easy to use. So the mindful drops are a liquid form of L-theanine that is unflavored.

Marc · 1:27:16

So you can add it to your cup of coffee and recreate that that magic synergy that exists in matcha, or you can even add it to your matcha to increase the L-theanine intake. Because even in naturally occurring matcha, even in the highest quality where, where the umami flavor, which comes largely from L-theanine is, is expressed, you're getting maybe 30 to 40 milligrams per per gram of matcha.

Marc · 1:27:43

And if you're having a couple grams that maybe you're getting 100 milligrams of L-theanine in a really high quality cup of matcha. And in the scientific studies, the dosage that is effective in folks can often be many times that right around the 200 milligram mark.

Marc · 1:27:58

So there's, there's reason you would even, you would even add L-theanine to matcha to increase that, that L-theanine concentration. So the, the hope with the drops is it allows you to do that and it broadens the, the the feeling benefit of matcha to a larger base of, of consumers that can now get it through coffee or they can add it to their chamomile tea at night to to relax more just trying to take this magical compound and and make it easier. So that's what mindful drops is, is trying to be the jewel. You can expand on that and I think making. Accessible in and versatile because, you know, at our time at Jade Leaf, we had many

Jules · 1:28:39

coffee drinkers come to us saying, you know, I still love coffee, but I don't like the way it makes me feel. So I'm switching to matcha. And so they've had to learn to love matcha. It, it, it can be an acquired taste, you know, unless you really love it and there's going to be a camp of people who don't necessarily enjoy the flavor components of matcha, and that's OK.

Jules · 1:29:01

The thing about L-theanine is in what we're doing with mindful drops is you can add it to any drink. Like I, I've been experimenting with it. By the time this episode launched, it'll likely be available for purchase or very close.

Jules · 1:29:13

I add it to water at night, you know, 2 squeezes, 400 milligrams. And it helps me because I've historically have had issues falling asleep, like my sleep hygiene is terrible. And it's something that I'm working on. And I take 400 milligrams at night sometimes I've done 6. You know, I've, I've just been experimenting with the effects and it helps me especially with, you know, my racing mind just kind of come down a bit, feel a little bit more grounded so that I can actually sleep.

Jules · 1:29:41

How about whiskey or wine? Yeah, I don't drink alcohol. So that's it's, it's really. Helpful, you know, like we're seeing. The rise of nootropics and people that are, you know, not drinking alcohol. And so we're seeing, you know, compounds like L-theanine being integrated into cocktails and, you know, other drinks.

Jules · 1:29:59

And so that's something we're we're hoping to bring is a very convenient, you know, drop format of L-theanine that you can take throughout the day depending on what your goals are. And it doesn't only have to be in coffee or matcha. It doesn't have to be just at night, but added to anything like if for me, you know, as someone that can be in a heightened state, you know, if I'm feeling anxious, I took some before this call.

Jules · 1:30:23

I took a drop before this call because, you know, I'm telling my like, it's always nerve wracking having to speak about anything, but it helped me feel just a little bit more grounded so that I could share what I was hoping to share in a more composed, confident way. And I hope that came through.

Jules · 1:30:40

But so it's something that I think could benefit a lot of people. I know a lot of people take it for anxious feelings if they're in a, you know, a stress state. And that's something, you know, a lot of the feedback that we've been getting of people who are already L-theanine customers is that it has helped them in those various ways.

Jules · 1:30:58

So we're excited for mindful drops. It's, it's going to be a convenient, you know, travel friendly bottle that you could take anywhere. And I've, I've truly loved it, but I might be a little biased, but we're, we're hoping people, you know, find value.

Jules · 1:31:15

In it and helps. Them and and helps them really unlock what they're hoping to do, whether it be, you know, com focus during the day to get into their flow state with work at night to relax or throughout the day when they're just needing, you know, a little bit of emotional support in my support bottle. Love it.

1:31:31

Bringing the the magic of matcha. Like outside inside of the matcha. Context into other parts of life or for people who just don't like the tastes. It's really awesome and but we'll leave a link to when the show notes too if anyone wants to order it. Thank you.

Ryan · 1:31:44

That's really generous of you. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you so much for. Your time and your work. Both the Jade Leaf and the Matcha program and for coming on the show, it's a really great conversation. It's always nice to have like these insider industry talks.

1:31:57

So it's almost like group therapy sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. Because you're, you know, we're in the arena, so. It, you know. Thank you. For everything that you both have been spearheading with the level of education and you know how robust it is because, you know, I mean, prior to the Specialty Matcha Podcast, these conversations happened behind the scenes with industry friends. You know, outside of that, brands share their own narrative of what they wanted to come up.

1:32:25

This is really incredible what you both host and continue to, you know, to share with the world and and I'm very grateful for the both of you. Thank you. It's our pleasure and thank you so much to our listeners. And if you. Enjoyed this.

Ryan · 1:32:37

Please consider sharing with a friend and we'll see you in the next one. Thanks. See you in the future. Thanks. Yeah.