Specialty Matcha in Bangkok with Jev of MTCH™

Ryan · 0:05

Hello and welcome to the Specialty Matcha Podcast. My name is Ryan and this is my cofounder Sam Zongjun, who also goes by Sam. Hello, and we're the cofounders of Sanko matcha products. Hello, Ryan from the future here. We also have a video version of this episode and with corrected captions and with additional visuals of things that we reference and talk about during the episode. And so if you're interested in that, I put the link into the YouTube episode where you can watch this versus listen to it if you're interested.

Zongjun · 0:32

Thanks so much, back to the episode. Yeah. So we launched this podcast to discuss our learning journey, matcha, share startup stories and interview experts. And today we're sitting in this beautiful space here in Bangkok with the founder Jev of MTCH.

Jev · 0:47

Hi everyone. I'm Jev here. Thank you for coming on the podcast again. Sure, sure. In one year. Yeah, nice to see you guys. As always, thanks for the delicious sample. Thank you and thank you for this. Actually, I don't know what are we drinking? Yeah, think about the region, think about how long is the shading could be, I.

Jev · 1:04

Would guess longer shading. Longer shading has a lot of creaminess. Premium. A lot of dairy notes. And when you mentioned about the longer shading here, So what is long? What do you consider to be long? Well, more than 20 days, definitely. Yeah, more than 20 days.

Jev · 1:20

So this one is about 28 to 30 days. 30 ish days. Wow, that's impressive. So it shows a lot something like very sweet and very smooth. Even I did this like 5 minutes ago. It still have lots of like enjoyment in your. Very velvety the effects. Yeah, great aftertaste.

Jev · 1:42

Really long, prolonged, sweet aftertaste. It is a samidori. It's a samidori. Samidori. No, no, that's samidori. Oh samidori. Oh wow. It has a lot of richness for samidori that I haven't always tasted. Typically I find samidori more refreshing and simple. This one's very complex.

Jev · 1:58

And this samidori is from 2024. OK, 24. Yeah. And yeah, expecting the 2025 will arrive next month. So I expect even better higher quality because as a producer said, 2025 is a tough year for them with the better with the workflow, but it's been more as a higher quality of the matcha, the tencha, cooler, cooler in the burning period and the lower yield.

Ryan · 2:32

And it's had some time to rest too and they didn't release it so early, so like that changes the taste quite a bit from what I understand. Yeah, Yeah, at least six months. I think after we finish the sencha process, we have to wait ideally 6 months to make sure that all the chemical component be like stimulated during the processing, have time to rest and not shop it. OK. Interesting, is this from Kyoto prefecture? Yeah, sure.

Ryan · 3:01

OK, tastes like it. Yeah. And this is is. This from Gokou? I don't know. Maybe yeah, maybe. Maybe not. Yeah. But secret? Yeah. Maybe. Yes, Maybe no. But it's delicious. It's delicious, whatever it. Is very Speaking of the the Uji you mentioned last time, yesterday that now we are going to talk about the sub region of Kyoto prefecture, right, you have seen some of the team and then they named the sub district of Uji, like Joyo, Wazuka, Ujitawara, would you talk about that, that kind of thing? Yeah, in the rural areas, not the matcha. Now it's very funny because like even now, all five years ago, people come to me and asked that

Jev · 3:50

OK do you have Uji? I mean like they, it does it that doesn't mean the country from Uji, they think that Uji is the name of the cultivar, or Uji is the name. Interesting. Yeah, like same thought as Yabukita, but but now I think the consumer or the market develop a lot. So now we discuss about the sub region, we discuss about the microterroir.

Zongjun · 4:17

Fun. So for now, like what's the percentage of day-to-day consumers that you run into that ask you like very in depth, you know, knowledgeable questions versus like people, you know, asking you, you know, what is this matcha, for the first time? Interesting, I didn't check the data, but I just just anecdotally, yeah, that's just answered by my, I think people have more idea when they come to the store. OK, in in our early, the customer come to the store and just ask for a cup of matcha latte. That's it.

Jev · 4:49

But now they ask more. They have the flavor profile preference. OK, they do not like the umami, or sometimes they consider the color, like the aroma, like that. That flavor, it's called samidori, but actually it's not.

Jev · 5:04

But at least they have some preference in their mind, or they know the famous name, like they know Yabukita. They know Yabukita. Yeah, they can be surprised by seeing the name Yabukita. And then, OK, let's go with the Yabukita. And they can expect something from the name. I think this is a big change because five years ago, when we opened the shop, when we put the name Yabukita in the list, no one knows and no one even cares.

Zongjun · 5:27

So it's changed a lot. Wow. And that happened fast because couple of years you end up with a very experienced group of consumers asking you very in depth questions. Yeah, sometime when we mentioned about, but most of the time we blame the social media that that makes the market so bad, right.

Jev · 5:48

The market gets like get accelerated, get get crazy with the matcha boom. But at the same time it educated people a lot. Otherwise, if you don't have this kind of like this boom or this kind of trend, it will be it will stay as it is, matcha is sort of drinking maybe properly.

Zongjun · 6:06

Yeah, then most people think in general, most of them, they, they know a lot. Do you think this is like the new norm for, you know, retailers, matcha brand people in Thailand, like you have to offer all this information?

Jev · 6:19

I think so. OK. You, you cannot, I, I, I think they cannot do the matcha retail without knowing this information anymore. OK, OK. Because when you step into the professional games, the customer knows a lot and and they will ask, they even make a matcha at home with their own like own recipe. So if you want to do business with the matcha you have to know this one and try to keep up with trend, I guess. What does it mean to build trust with consumers now versus when you first started five years ago? Like I, I'm sure transparency is a huge part of that, but like when you look at the competitive

Ryan · 6:57

landscape of all of these offerings and the consumers are deciding who do I want to spend money with? Like a lot of that is building up a relationship and building trust with these different brands. So how do you view that and the way the the foundations of trust get built between the brand owners who are educating people and providing the product and then the the buyers?

Jev · 7:19

I think we can. I can answer in free path. So the first part is the transparency and the transparency we can build it. But I have the answer but I try to think about it. But for example, we should not when we know that what customer want and what is the keyword that take out the customer that they will come to buy the things, we should really make sure that the thing has that type of the thing that we are selling for example.

Jev · 7:46

Yeah, like like in Thailand for example, the roasty matcha flavour aroma is very popular and it's sellable, like the matcha from Pochino Asia. Or yeah, I heard that super popular here. Yeah, it's, it's really, really popular. And and then we will have the terms nutty flavour Ryan just mentioned.

Jev · 8:04

The nutty flavour is a very new thing for them. Real interesting. Years ago, but for example, when when we would like to sell the word, not the flavor and we put this type like description to our matcha, we have to make sure that this one has a really phone out.

Jev · 8:19

Yeah. So otherwise you're not this marketing? Otherwise the people, the customer would get really disappointed. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I, I think this is like the fundamental of doing things we have to make sure and we have to like really, really confident with the product.

Ryan · 8:35

This is how we make class. If you cannot find a matcha that has roasty or nutty flavor, we just don't say it and we try to tell them what to expect. So this is what we've been doing for like 5-6 years. Would you say that the preference for these roasty, toasty profiles like hojicha are starting to overtake the preference for umami?

Jev · 8:58

Because I think no. OK, I don't think so. I think you guys drink coffee, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Back, back in the day. When when when you start drinking coffee. What do you think? I was searching mostly for acidic coffees. Higher, more fruity, more acidic. Since you were young.

Jev · 9:15

Since I was young, maybe something that's not bitter. Yeah, something that not bitter drinking what? Gnocchi. Sugary. I love it. Yeah, same here. But we, we have something in common that not too bitter, something not too bitter. I, I start drinking coffee with like a Frappuccino with the caramel.

Ryan · 9:34

It's very, very sweet, very Milky and clean. And then when we drink, drink more, we can, we can catch the taste of the real coffee and we get too used to with the taste of it. And then we when we get used to of the taste of the real coffee, we don't need any sugar or milk or cream to help anymore. So we, we become drink less sweet and less milk. And then at the end of the day, we end up with, we drink black coffee and then maybe sometimes only drink black coffee. We can, we can develop our personal preference to for something acidic like you mentioned. I think this would happen the same with the matcha because most of the people when they

Ryan · 10:12

when they step into the the matcha will most of them, they start with matcha iced pretty much latte with some little sugar and they have no idea what is the umami-ness is even even how have you tried to extend this is where women didn't get it and you can't help it.

Jev · 10:30

You cannot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're just not ready for it. You haven't acquired the preference. Yeah, let them take time, let them try to get used to with a good quality of the matcha and they'll be more. Interesting. So one of the things that MTCH does that I think is so unusual compared to any other cafe I've ever been to, it's just a level of extraction theory that goes on.

Ryan · 10:50

Even in the past two days, you've mentioned so many different brew methods. You asked me yesterday, do you want this to be very like expressive or more mellow? And you were going to completely control that by the brewing.

Ryan · 11:02

You talk about some of the brewing parameters, brewing strategy extraction theory that you use here. Did you start to see a little bit of it online? But it's still very much, this is the best way to whisk matcha versus this method provides these flavors with this other method does something else. And so like what does whisking do? What does whisking for 10 seconds versus 30 seconds do, or different temperatures of water, etcetera. You know, it's a complex question. I had a slight trade secret I.

Jev · 11:31

Don't know. It's OK. I talk about this all the time, but in my own language, disclaimer that I had to disclaim that I'm not the first one who invent all the moving methods. So we have to honor Urasenke, Omotesenke, and a lot more. And I have to disclaim that there is no perfect recipe for for our matcha, even how bad the matcha is, I think there is no perfect recipe for them.

Jev · 11:57

But what we try to do is we try to, we try to apply or the method that we know to Amata and we will see what is the best for it. And I think when we go back to do the chanoyu ceremony and we we see the difference style of brewing in each school, there is a framework implication in that.

Jev · 12:17

No one ever talks about that. That's interesting. The Moto Sanka, there's not very much whiskey. Yeah, I think all the information is already already there. But we have when it come to the matcha, we have a kind of like beauty standard of how to make to make a matcha properly by making a nice beautiful foam on the top, which is like maybe up there thinking.

Jev · 12:41

Interesting. Yeah, maybe that's what I think. The thing is really nice, but it is not the only way, right. And when we when we get rid of this type of beauty standard, the truth is the taste is all here and the foam on the top is maybe it's perfect like 1020% of the whole cup of the tea.

Jev · 13:02

So that's why we need to focus on the rest at the seven, 7080% down there. And when we don't, when we don't have the beauty standard, the brewing that the tea is a method of try to blend, not to dissolve, try to blend the tea with the liquid properly, as nice as we can get.

Jev · 13:23

And while we blend it, the extraction is occur during the mixing. We can say there are three stage of the extraction. So the most soluble part and the middle soluble part and the least soluble part which result in the flavor. When you think about it all you got flavor. You think about it clean, fresh, sweet, some kind of some floral aroma come on the first phase.

Jev · 13:49

And when you talk about the most aroma or the slightly lost naughty flavor, multi vanilla is is coming the second part OK and the body, the upper test or the heavy roasty aroma at the at the end. So. The role of the Brewer when we think about the aspect, the flavor is to fry the balance of this or try to present one the matcha show me. So when you encounter a new matcha that you have never tried before, would you like try all sets of combinations of extraction or do you have some intuitive, you know, sense of like, OK, this matcha is from yame. Like I will probably use lower temperature water or higher temperature water depending on

Jev · 14:36

your experience. Most of the time I try all the set all the possibility which is like 10:15 set up. It must take forever to taste through everything. When some producers send me a sample of the Mata like 10 gram I said OK you send 10 gram is this not enough I need to buy 50 to do the same thing and if you like it I need 100 gram of sample to make up basically. So it makes sense.

Jev · 15:04

Because we need to really make sure that we want to get to know a Mata really well. And really when we know how to extract this, what we like, what is our preference to them, and then we will throw it into our recipe. So it's a lot of work. Wow, sounds like it.

Ryan · 15:25

Something that you did yesterday is like we did a koi cha and then we took the koi cha pasted usicha and is the first time this has ever happened to me is that was the incredible Uji Hikari koi cha that you have here right now.

Ryan · 15:39

And it tasted so light and elegant and just like beautifully, like not this crazy intense, but it was like soft as koi cha. And then you asked me how do you want it to be a Zeus cha from a flavor perspective? And I said very expressive and I was expecting you to whisk it like crazy and generate lots of foam, get as much air incorporated as possible, and you barely whisk it.

Ryan · 16:03

You very lightly, very emoto sange style, very little foam. And I tasted it. It's the first time I've ever tasted usucha that was more intense than the koicha. I've never had that experience and I asked you why you gave such an interesting answer. I would love if you could share some of that extraction theory because it just blew my mind.

Jev · 16:25

It changed my perspective. So for the first part, I think the concentration of the framework come from a good ratio. Most of most of the the Salem Monique practice when they saw the the leftover of the foil side in the bowl, they even know what amount they should put on the water, right? Yes, yeah.

Jev · 16:47

And I just try to do the same, but I just do it with my calculator to make sure that I don't overpower it. Down to the milli milliliter. It's crazy. We have to go to the milli. Milliliter. Level because the cheese is a small amount and the ratio that we make the quarter is just 7.5 and then when when we want to make it into like the Utah is 1 to 30 right.

Jev · 17:15

So we have to really make sure that we are not miscalculated otherwise then it will be like waste that. So the ratio is very important. So check the leftover when when when I make a finish part of the koi shot, I weighted on a scale to see to see how the the total the weight of the ball is.

Jev · 17:34

And then when he finished the koi shot, I weighted again and I see what is this? The amount that remove from the bowl. That's insane pre preparation. Like the fact that that standard here is crazy. Like. Yeah, and I didn't.

Jev · 17:48

Anticipating. That I didn't, I just add the amount. So that is the first part that we should not overlook. And the second part is the style of the of the air that we would like to input to, to to the Windstream. If I ask you and you think, OK, you get fired, you get tired with the Kocha already, you need some some safe home to go back. I would add more air and give you a fluffy feel. OK, yeah.

Jev · 18:15

To make sure that you go home safely. OK as it extracts more caffeine or more? No, no, no, no, no. It's just about the air. Just about the air. Yeah, that's about the air to input to incorporate with the with the tea. But if since you ask for something expensive so that's that's mean you need for a second.

Jev · 18:34

The air actually dilutes the intensity that way you are trying. To change your mouth feel. Change the mouth. Yeah, you change the mouth feel you. You think about when you bring the cold pressed juice, there is like very less air in there, right. That's a concentrate food in the liquid. You think the the framework is very sharp, very expressive to your face.

18:58

But if you put that one into a shaker and you shake it really, really hard and you drink it, it will give you like a soft frothy things. So it's about the air on the top or the microphone that you mentioned that change the feeling and change your mentality perspective when you bring it. So less air does make it taste more concentrate. It's just.

Jev · 19:22

It doesn't make it take less concentrate, but you will feel it a little bit. Feel it better? Really. Blurry. So there's a more definition more than less foam. Yeah. Yeah. OK. Interesting. And then the last part is an expression, yeah.

Jev · 19:40

So, yeah, yes. Yeah, which is the crazy part that just, it blew my mind. So when you ask something expressive but the tea is already blue and the poet has this. This is really hard to explain, but in a single stroke there are more 10 channels on it.

Jev · 19:55

There's more 10 channel. Yeah, it's about the grip of the week. OK, yeah, grip harder, but do it slower. OK. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, like more control, more tension, more OK. Yeah. And then the T will be extract. So the first extraction is the core chart, right And then it become the user side, it is a second extraction.

Jev · 20:19

So we have to really make sure that we are not extract too much and bring out the bitterness, the timing or shield the sweet and do my flavor. So we need to really progress and control the extraction. The CEO has already been extracted the first time when it was in.

Ryan · 20:37

It's a second brew. It's a second brew based. Interesting. You know, like literally it's like fractional brewing. Like in Kung Fu Cha you do a Taiwanese oolong, right? First and second brew tastes totally different. And you don't want the like in Kung Fu, you don't want the water to hit the tea too harshly so that you kind of extracting all the burned or chart like charcoal roasted smokiness from the tea.

Jev · 21:01

Yeah, yeah. That's. How is the agitation? The agitation helps with the extraction too. Yeah. Interesting. We can learn a lot from making a cup of koicha, so that's why it takes like 8 years for the tea practitioner. To true, Yeah.

Ryan · 21:17

To set. Because beginners don't do koicha. Yeah. Yeah, It's fascinating. Yeah. I'm still learning a lot, so there are like a great people out there that I really want to learn from them. When you are developing all these new methodologies, where do you usually take inspiration from?

Ryan · 21:35

You talking about like these mentors, great people? Like are they like individuals or do you like read from, you know, literatures? Like how do you like take inspirations? Talking doesn't help. Sometimes it doesn't help. Yeah, it doesn't help.

Jev · 21:51

Like we can talk and we can have some idea, but I think sometimes when we just here the story of how delicious it is, it doesn't make sense until you taste it. Until you taste. It I did a lot of practice. Yeah, I have to tell you that I did a lot of practice. And this Uji Hikari is the first time that we serve the koicha in the store for my whole career.

Jev · 22:15

Oh wow. We really. Yeah. So this is the first time that we we put the koicha on the menu. Yeah, since we opened. We opened in 2019. Wow, that's. Crazy there will never be a koicha on the menu or any offering just for fun to give to some friends.

Jev · 22:32

OK. But he never put it in the menu. So I practiced really really hard. Finally. Comfortable enough? Not enough. Still not. Yeah, yeah, I still learning. Yeah, I still do a lot of mistakes. We're still part of the experiment.

Ryan · 22:47

Yeah, I get that. Then my I didn't charge so high for you see the planet and you, you have a pressure on the pilot. That's why you charge at this price. Yeah, I didn't charge so high. Yeah. Oh, the price was insane. I can't believe that. I mean, if there's something that that is a statement that embodies mantra for everyone, it's the accessibility of the price point of this.

Ryan · 23:09

Yeah, we of that T we. Charge 20 USD for a part of cheaper award-winning competition Freight for sure. Yeah. I mean, that's crazy. I mean 90 usually sells for in the states maybe $250 for 20 grams. And here it's you have an expert preparing it across, you know, all the MTCH locations it's prepared for you. That's crazy.

Jev · 23:33

The the price tag could be a problem. You know when when for example, that one is 600 baht in Thai, right? So which is like 20 USD. Some people would sell it in like 60 USD. But if you put that price tag, I think it had less chance.

Jev · 23:49

But this tea to to be to be selected by the customer. If we have less chance to do it, we have less chance to learn the feedback. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. So it's to encourage more people to get it, just to create that feedback loop.

Jev · 24:06

Yeah, how consumers like it, how they find it. Yeah, you see on the the back of of the label of the tea, right, We put the name of the blue word. We just want to make sure that the Brewer of the cup of the tea have have to less quantity to what the customer think they need to come and check their feedback.

Jev · 24:26

Is everything OK or any room to improve? Interesting. What are the feedback so far for this tea? Yeah, most of them are very happy. Some of them they expect the tea will be like wait, extremely funky, like French oy punch in to good affairs. But this tea is a little bit some something very elegant, very real round and complex.

Ryan · 24:49

So I think is this a time that the tea should be in the to win the competition? I would love to try. Sure, sure, sure. We can have it later, yes. It's the price. It was crazy and the quality and the whole experience. Yeah, since since the day one.

Ryan · 25:07

Then we do that. We have clear the concept in here. I think all the people should have a good easy access to the master. Yeah, I think that's so important that people have good reference samples. They know what they're buying is from the place that they that says on the menu from the cultivar that it's supposed to be and that then they can taste that. And it's sort of an accessible price point because how else do you learn as a consumer that's so powerful? And I think this is really the true foundation in the fertile soil for a specialty movement.

Jev · 25:37

Otherwise this will really just turn into a luxury niche like only the very few people can. Enjoy when we go to Kyoto or when we go to Uji like some famous shop. Maybe we need to be in a line for half or one hour to get in, right? Yeah.

Jev · 25:52

And most of the time when people be there, they try to, they wait for a long time and they expect a lot. So that's why sometime they try to order o-usu. OK, OK. So which is probably ¥200, I guess OK ¥2000 two. Thousand yeah, 2000, Sorry, yeah. ¥2000 I guess and people can enjoy it or maybe not, but I think when people spent long time to wait and spend a high amount of the money, there should be some kind of like explanation. Yes, yeah, at least they will.

Jev · 26:31

They should have some idea what they are drinking and what is how does it in part with the other range of the product. Yeah, yeah. So versus just saying it's Gokumukashi or something or you don't learn anything about.

Ryan · 26:44

It so they will have more idea to explore more, yeah. It's interesting that that hasn't caught on in Japan more because in Japan, all the traditionally blended products, you don't learn anything about the product, but you have to be told this is good. But when you read this card for the Uji Hikari, the award-winning one, you are literally told why it's good. In objective terms, the exact number of days of the shading, the fact that it was hand sorted, fact it was hand picked like you and the fact that it came comes from like a very specific sub region.

Jev · 27:14

You can learn with that consumption. So I think this is a like cultural difference between in Japan and outside of Japan. But in the past, I think there is no problem with this because in the in Japan they have a trust system. The thing with a higher price tag is the thing that cost more base by higher quality and the seller have their like their owner and the customer have their trust. So that's why when they paid for something like ¥4000 for 20 grams of the matcha, that should be no problem. But for the people outside, for the like us Thai people, we cannot speak Japanese.

Ryan · 27:56

How do we know? Yeah. So that's why we need style information and I think most of the people now in the industry doing a very good job. Yeah. How do you see the whole landscape in Thailand? So like, like, if you look at the competitive landscape, even since I first was focusing on matcha here three years ago, it's changed like crazy.

Ryan · 28:17

I just was at one of the malls here in Bangkok. There were maybe 15 vendors and everyone was selling single cultivars, single origin. They're being very specific, not just saying uji matcha, but like Joyo, for example, I'd had a conversation with someone, he had a tasting reference sample of six months, aged 10, child 1 1/2 year, 2 1/2 year, all fresh milk. And he was telling me about the taste differences. Like I feel like this conversation 1, you wouldn't have it anywhere else in the world and two, you wouldn't have it maybe three years ago here in Thailand. So like, how is it changed from

Ryan · 28:51

like a small business landscape? Because it seems like so many people are entering the game and the standards are changing. And it feels like the standards for specialty matcha are being set in Bangkok. And I really felt that yesterday because it feels like everyone has the same playbook.

Jev · 29:06

So then how, how does how do people, how does everyone differentiate from themselves? Or is this market just so large it can support everybody And. I believe the market is so large. Yeah, we have let me think I can answer in like in many part. But first of all, I think we have the thanks to the customer in in Thailand when, when Thai people saw any trend, they respond to the trend very hard.

Jev · 29:33

Passionately. Aggressively. Yeah, aggressively, passionately. And that's drive the vendor or the seller or the retailer to to do more. Otherwise they cannot differentiate themselves. So they need to study more, they need to go back, I think in one day, in a single day in Uji, them like many Thai vendor or Thai customer, they come to Uji and they try to learn more and more.

Jev · 29:55

And when they know something interesting, they try to apply by their business or they try to apply with their communication. It's true. We. Went into so many Thai people in Uji. Yes, we did a. Little crazy. And I think this is how we became hubs of the matcha.

Jev · 30:13

I think Z Hub, yeah. Yeah, we are like a matcha capital I guess. Yeah, I can see it clearly when when I'm here in the store and every day we we experience the customer from overseas come to our shops, ask about what we are doing here, why we why we see like this matcha to this menu and why it why it's not that matcha or some people ask for to do the franchise. OK, I'm sure.

Jev · 30:44

So I think in Bangkok it's got to be something interesting. Honestly the chances of you learning more about matcha in Bangkok is higher than you can do in Japan I feel like nowadays. Unless you're going directly to producer. Farm or unless you can speak Japanese. Yeah.

Jev · 31:00

And sometimes when we when we think about one of the producer told me that in the past they must have growers should not be invisible. That's an interesting mindset. They just should be invisible because the grower is just grow the tea and sell the tea to the someone who got combination.

Jev · 31:18

So they just try to be invisible and try to do their best. So they cannot get blamed if they send the shitty quality matcha, shitty quality tencha to the to the tea shop be blamed. Yeah, so they cannot be blamed. Yeah, so they just try to do quietly and get some money. So this is the mentality in the past. So that's why when we when we buy a matcha, we buy from a tea shop, right?

Jev · 31:45

We didn't buy from from the farmers. So what we know there, what we can learn from there is how to blend the matcha. And most of the time we can just obtain the knowledge that this matcha is for this matcha is for the OR this matcha is called for a certain style of the school, but that's it. And you will never, you will never understand the flavor preference if you have no chance to try that kind of the matcha. Or even harder, if you and lose some kids tea practitioner and you never expand any brewing style, you have no idea. So it has less chance to exchange the kind of the tea and the tea and the producer doesn't

Jev · 32:32

stick. And you never know who they are, who they are calling this beautiful and delicious tea because they don't think, they try to be invisible. So this is the thing that happened in Japan. I guess when we are outside of Japan, we have not something to hold back. So we are keen to learn.

Jev · 32:49

So we go direct to the producers and we can go direct to the tea vendor or charge it. Yeah. To ask what is they think why this is not, why it has to be this, not that quite, for example. And then we mix up everything and we create our own style.

Ryan · 33:06

One of the things we were discussing was the matcha scene in London. So if you had to give advice to other markets, London, Paris, NY, Los Angeles, what can cafe owners, matcha brands and consumers do to create this type of culture that has developed in Thailand?

Ryan · 33:27

Because we've been talking a lot and we feel like what's happening in Thailand is new culture formation, but there's not a very traditional ceremonial lens placed on the products. The focus is on the appreciation of the tea itself and doing everything you can to make the best flavors be expressed by the tea in formats that people like and learning with consumers like.

Ryan · 33:53

There's a tight feedback loop between the products and the preparation of products and what consumers want. And this is seems to be the cycle of feedback and it's created this really unique new culture. How can we get to that in Paris? How can we see this kind of menu in London? You know what?

Jev · 34:12

I am a horrible person to give a feedback to someone. OK, Yeah, I. I'm very bad in this month. I just tried to go back on our early day to see what we are doing. On the first day I told someone from a tea school. He came to the tea school and he asked me why did you use the scale on every stage like feed K bat indoors, the measuring the liquid, measuring the hot water and everything. So we use the skill on every stage. And he mentioned that OK, in Japan no one do this, no one just go with their experience.

Jev · 34:48

And I just told him simply that I have 5 staff that on that day and five staff they have their different like. Different groups, they have different experience. Yeah, and in every part of the day they have different emotional. Yeah, so that's why do you feel in a rush? Do you feel calm?

Jev · 35:10

Yeah. So that's why they still help for us. Yeah, we do that. This is how we do it. I told our staff that, OK, if you make a mistake, if you pour out too much, too many hot water, OK, don't send this to the customer. You keep it for yourself. It is a good thing anyway.

Jev · 35:28

But it might change slightly, a little bit. Yeah, I don't know. But we don't do it and we don't try. So you keep it for yourself to make a new one with a perfect ratio. Yeah, we're the perfect ratio. We're the perfect standard.

Jev · 35:41

That's crazy. And no one, no one can blame us. You keep doing this and then the customer will notice. Yeah. And the customer will leave purchase and the and if you are doing good, someone will look up to you, yeah. Yeah, you set the standard.

Jev · 35:55

Yeah, and everyone will like then get inspired. Yeah, someone, someone will get inspired or maybe some customer who who like the pairs. I'm the one that have a good standard. You tell the other one who, hey, you should do, you should use scale, you should, you should safety, you should clean the cup, you should.

Jev · 36:16

That one should be more common, yeah. But this this helped this helped to make the matcha here in Bangkok has so high standard, I guess. Yeah, because if everyone asks stick to their standard, the customer will interest and the customer will help to spread out the word order customer will help to employers to standard.

Jev · 36:41

How often do you receive very candid or critical feedback from customers? Most of the day, yeah, I read. I read the comments, the customer every day, good or bad. I read it all the time by myself. Do they like leave comments on like Google map or do they tell?

Jev · 37:01

You'd say this gentleman, they will bring the drink to the customer and the customer will leave the feedback on it. Sometimes it can be just a simply complement like OK, good as usual. And so we take it, we take it or sometimes it can be a complaint, OK, the tea get a little bit oxidized by the distance of the delivery.

Jev · 37:27

Wow. So we take that comment. Interesting. We have, I think the most important thing is by doing the matcha cafe here or the business here. That's a fundamental I am a tea lover and you guys are tea lover. So we are, we, we are not like 100% this entrepreneur like we, we are still at tea level.

Jev · 37:48

So we think about the customer to make sure that they will get something that they will be happy. And if you think like that, we will try to do our, we will try to do the best to deliver. Interest. I guess the customer base really matters too, because in some cultures, you know, customers are generally not that candid.

Jev · 38:06

They don't give feedbacks that often, which I think is really a shortcoming for a lot of business. But if the customer doesn't give a feedback, you have to really show that you are doing what you are trying to do. There are some feed, for example, when they have a feedback that, OK, this is not good enough, I will make that menu and bring it. If I still, if I like it, if there is no problem with the quality, if there are no problem with the Brewer, we won't change anything.

Jev · 38:42

But we have to make sure that we are like it and we really want to present this type of flavor for a matcha latte. We put a different level of the matcha dose on it, right? We fix for example of it. OK, let's say we start with 5g and there may be some some matcha that we be designed to use 6 grams, 7g or more because we are happy with the test with this concentration. And when the people say OK, this is to better, I will make I will make a cup and taste it.

Ryan · 39:13

If I like it, I won't change anything, OK, Yeah, but at least we have a choice for them. That's kind of if that customer come back to the store. OK, you don't like the store? Must have. We have the other. Wow. Very, very bartender almost kind of bespoke style, yeah. Because if you change it like if if someone complaints OK, this for example, this suicide is to beat her and you change, you will lose your your standard I guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah, very interesting. It's interesting in Thailand, the majority of the drinks, I've noticed almost everyone drinks iced, iced Americano like light brew style or with milk.

Ryan · 39:52

That must change the selection. And when you do the sensory evaluation, how do you build a model in your mind of what the usucha tastes like? And then how this, what is this going to taste like when I diluted this water or with ice or with milk? Because I've noticed that I can't predict it yet. It's so hard to know what a matcha's will taste like with dilution, temperature and milk.

Jev · 40:16

I feel like hundreds of times, which I'm sure you've done. No. But what we are doing, what we are saying is, for example, if this matcha, we put it into 3 menus, right? A traditional which is have a cup of matcha Americano and a cup of matcha latte.

Jev · 40:31

We put a different description of the menu in it, OK, because it won't taste the same. For example, there are one matcha from Kagoshima. I guess that one is a matcha from Kirari 31. Yes, I saw you drop. You had crazy lines with the door.

Jev · 40:49

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That 1 is really, really delicious with usucha and with the matcha Americano. And then when we add the milk, the amino acid has the protein and the fat to add. To the milk. To add to the milk, it becomes taste like 3 inches, 3 inches.

Jev · 41:07

Bree, interesting. So that's when we turn it. OK, This is really, really cheesy, Bree. We put the B on it, but we don't put the B on. That's that's how we do. And sometime when we we drink it as the Americano, it has some some 5 or 8 space which will which we cannot find in the matcha latte.

Ryan · 41:30

So we just don't say it. There's a lot of judgment in the West, particularly in the United States, for taking high quality matcha and mixing it with milk. They say it's not respectful, the tradition. They say that it has all of these delicate flavors that then get destroyed when you add milk and sugar. And I hate this argument.

Ryan · 41:51

And I think these people need to take a trip to Bangkok and actually always use MTCH as the example where you can really make 1 + 1 = 3. And actually these really special see very specific cultivars just completely change and it's just a different expression that is just as valid and just as good then if you make it traditional way or the right way. Even for like the traditional way, if you go to Wuji nowadays, like for example, holy shit man they have their tensha or matcha gland specifically designed to be planned with milk. Like the Japanese are doing it too. Yeah, I think that's how we end

Jev · 42:32

up to, to, to the world, I guess. Because as you see in here, we have like we become one matcha in Bangkok E, right. And you, you experience it now. I don't want to stand up and hate shout to the people new to the people that OK, let's stop doing this and let's go back to the traditional way. Because actually there is no real real traditional way. Or maybe sometimes when you think about the traditional way or this the appropriate or a suitable way, the people in here feel there is no connections because they they've never been to the teaspoon.

Jev · 43:06

Yeah. It's not their tradition. Meaningless. It's not their tradition, yeah, but. But most of the time when, when you saw the matcha, the matcha didn't use in in the matcha latte. When you think about the type that kind of the matcha, I think, OK, let me put it this way. You might see someone use the matcha or Croatia make a matcha latte.

Jev · 43:30

But I think that is just a home experimental or I'm very, very few people who run the cafe doing that. But it cannot force into a real business anyway. That's yeah, that's interesting. It's like literally not profitable. Yeah, it literally not profitable or even if you use like these and uses are great matsa, it will not go into the real business profit anyway because the cost will be too high and the price have will be too high. No one will buy it and make a like sustainable business. So I think we have to put it this way first. And then when we think about the Matsa, that single Codewa Matsa, there are single Codewa Matsa

Jev · 44:07

that are award-winning to it, which we just make it into A and there is simply a single matcha. So that's mean the single matcha or single doesn't have to be really, really expensive or always in the that is like if you can find like an OCU Middle East matcha which cost like 100 USD per kilo and you make and you put it into a masa latte, it's just OK.

Jev · 44:34

And most of the people here are doing like that. Yeah. So there's the real thing. And when you apply and when you try to think, when you think about it quality of this of whom Italy 33000 mark per kilogram, 100 USD per kilogram, it couldn't went to a cable plate much high. Anyway with the cable plate much most of the time when people think OK, if you want a good I mean and masa latte go for a cable plate same thing.

Ryan · 45:01

So I think there is no right or wrong, but we just need to understand what of the world and try to understand what we are doing and try to understand what they are saying. Is there such a thing as a matcha that's so high quality that it should never touch milk whereas?

Jev · 45:21

I think bottom line of this, if they're, if the buyer happy to do it, just let them do you cannot blame them their money, yeah. It's their product. Yeah, their product. And one day they will know that they're a waste of their money or they're just happy with what they are. Or do you think so?

Ryan · 45:37

But even the highest quality much if possible, if you prepare it with enough skill the right way, you can make 1 + 1 = 3. Or it really does create a new flavor profile that just couldn't have existed with any other matcha.

Ryan · 45:51

Yeah, because here, even here, I think a couple years ago I had Narino as a latte and I was the cheesiness I had never experienced that hit a latte, just a just a new flavor. Because a lot of people would be very upset even mixing Norino with milk because since a rare a Saiyan cultivar, but it really just creates something when that Hai Umami hits milk.

Jev · 46:15

It's a flavor that just doesn't exist otherwise. Depends on the milk too, right? Like all milks are not. Everything but I think it's their own side. OK, three months ago we did we did a workshop. No, not a workshop. We did an experience, a testing experience with the fresh made ice cream.

Jev · 46:33

We we sell a ticket for the ice cream experience a fresh made Gelato. So we we do a tea and Gelato paddling with many things sounds great. And the main course of that one is a freshly made premium. Now we know I can, I can tell you.

Jev · 46:49

Premium Narito the Hand sorted 1. Yeah, the hand, the gold camera. Yeah, the gold camera. What we do, we took the ice cream vendor. Yeah, we add some mixture and then we just pour two chance of premium. Now you know, in there.

Jev · 47:07

Wow. And make a fresh meal. And make a fresh meal Gelato in front of the guest. Oh, like there in real time? What? What did it taste like? Crazy and can you expect that the taste like the capsicum from the premium? Now we know super green, super fresh Puma me Hi Oiga, you can think about like when you drink like Sierra carbones, some young and you drink something a little bit of capsicum, but it's it's very present. It's very enjoyable.

Jev · 47:39

I made the quesa out of the premium. Now you know many time I never expand this type of flavor, so I think this is. It only came with and the frozenness and the temperature. So you get to see and dimensionalize that tea in a new way.

Ryan · 47:53

And people are happy. And do you think the farmers, from our experience, they actually pass no judgment when we talk about this sort of thing when we're in Japan? So like, you know, if you were to go back to the producer, do you think that they mind how their tea is being used?

Jev · 48:08

Is this, I think is like the highest level culinary. Then it gets like kind of breaks the definition of culinary great because it's literally being used as an ingredient, but it's just at such a high level that it feels worth it.

Jev · 48:20

Like it's it's. I think if we can explain what we are doing, not just for fun and. Intention, intention. Yeah, intention and what we expect the output of doing this and tell them they will be very happy because most of the thing when the tea producer get afraid of because it out of their compost zone.

Jev · 48:43

OK, wow, that makes sense. For example, this tea is meant to be A and some people in UT have seen this one made into a for their entire life. They have no idea how it's going to be when it's become a fresh made, so that's why they feel OK. Are you sure you are doing this?

Jev · 49:01

Because they have no idea. But if you have a very strong intention and you are not playing with it, you're not waste the tea. Actually waste the tea is very subjective, but if you have the intention I think it's OK and they'd be OK. Yeah.

Jev · 49:17

Do you ever give feedback back to your producers? Or some. Really, consumers love this. They didn't love that. I tried this. It was good, but I tried it this way and it wasn't good. Yeah, that's the reason I I go to take that many times in the year. Not, not that far, not that far.

Jev · 49:31

I'm not just taking a photo because taking a photo is is nothing new. You, you, you go to a garden and you take a photo. Next year, same thing. How willing are the farmers to work with you to create something that you you need or create something that you're telling them consumers? Want you mean how willing?

Jev · 49:48

How willing like are they? Are they willing to work? With you they are willing they are. So they will make changes. Yeah. OK. Wow. That's great. But most of them, you know what, I didn't ask them to change anything, OK?

Jev · 50:01

I never asked them to change anything. I just tell them what what we are doing and what we expect. It's still really good because historically they are so isolated or insolate away from the consumers by, you know, all these tea houses, Chashis products just gets blend into all of these little cans. They have no idea, you know how consumers are enjoying their. Product I just try to connect.

Jev · 50:27

The dot I can, yeah. Yeah, this is wonderful. I hope I'm doing OK. Wow, so great. In 21 I went to Wuji with a tea that made in here and I put it into like a plastic house that then you see. Yeah. OK. And I bring this Matala they made in Thailand by their powder interesting to them to test. OK, wow.

Jev · 50:51

To them to test and we sit and OK please try what we are doing here in Thailand. This is a very strong. And they asked him again what do you think about this? He said the framework of the tea is very pronounced. Is it like drinking? And but this is a wow.

Jev · 51:10

So I think, yeah, I'm not sure he liked it or not, but I think when he when he can feel the tears on his matcha in matcha latte form, which is like something that people not try to try to encourage. Yeah, because usually it's just so diluted in milk you can't taste anything.

Ryan · 51:28

It's almost a color. Yeah, still express it enough. But when the producer said by himself, I think it is. That's great. Yeah. Yeah, this matcha actually. That's really encouraging to hear. And is it mostly just about the ratios, like you have the right extraction method for the matcha base and then you're just not adding too much milk.

Ryan · 51:49

So because like everything here is relatively concentrated so you can actually taste the tea. But other than that, are there any other best practices really express the taste of the tea? What is the question? We in milk, so if when you mix it with milk, other than having a very concentrated beverage where you know, maybe it's 150 milliliters and very well extracted tea, are there any like things the Brewer can do to make sure that you're expressing the tea because a lot of lattes are very not expressive. Also depends on the milk too I guess. Like how do you select the milk?

Jev · 52:23

Yeah, that is the first part. But when when we open a carpet, we only have one milk, so we don't have to care much about the variation of the milk. The brewing method can help. OK, you go back to the go back to the part of extraction that I just mentioned. Yeah, there are three-part of the extraction, the least soluble part, the the normal soluble part and the the most soluble part, the normal soluble part and the least soluble part. Sometime when you find some matcha that has content of the thing like Hika or the thing like the least soluble part and you want to expect it, maybe you mix it by the hand. It's not enough.

Jev · 53:01

So I just throw it into a vendor and make I really put a really, really strong force to extract the favor. But sometimes I do a different with the with the matter that that has like ACC framework that the tears from the the concentration of the omnibus that that will go really fast if you extract too high. So that's why we use the handbooks. So you risk it less if it's Moromami. So you don't over extract the amino acids, which then tastes super cheesy enough.

Jev · 53:31

Which makes sense because cheesy is like really high protein content. Yeah, it's interesting. But you have to remember that. This is very sophisticated. You have to remember that when you mention that, OK, you don't, you wish it gently. You have to make sure that the smoothness, the mouthfeel is OK. Otherwise your Mashala, they will be like crampy and dusty. Yeah, and it's a couple of no good thing. Yeah, Wow.

Jev · 53:56

Interesting. Or sometime when you extract really really hard on the the marsala latte, you don't extract the taste of the marsala so clean, you extract the taste of the milk too. And sometimes you extracted when you extract the the tears and the aroma of the milk so hard it's overpowered and much. Yeah, I've noticed that a lot of milk, it's just like the milk over shines.

Ryan · 54:20

We taste a lot of things in latte and our milling experiments and Dongjin says that tastes like Oatly. Some. Sometimes it's not about the way, so it's about the extracting of the milk too. Wow crazy. They're different recipes for how long you whisk to brewing time also.

Jev · 54:34

Yeah, we always do the do the. OK, what's the range? What's the shortest whisking time and the longest whisking time? We have 72nd to 90 seconds. 30 to 90 seconds. 90 seconds. Wow is that for like really deep rich haika teeth to extract all?

Jev · 54:58

The layers, yeah, it's depend, but we we use like a different method to do to do a, it's like a. Tin Fist Ramos. But it's really. But it's really worthful trying. Interesting. Yeah, we need to do more experiments on this because no one talks about these levels of extraction theory.

Jev · 55:15

You can try by yourself. You have one matcha and bit milk. You put the same amount of time and same amount of the milk and you basically short, medium and longer and you see. Do you whisk with the milk? Yeah. With the milk, with the.

Jev · 55:33

Milk, Yeah, in here we have a specific style, we call it called matcha latte. So we just add a milk into a matcha powder. Interesting. Yeah. So outside of Thailand people usually whisk equator and then dump it directly into it and or mix it up. I don't like it and it's become a market standard. Yeah, in here when you go to matcha market, matcha fair, you will see all the.

Jev · 55:58

Yeah, I saw everywhere. Yeah. Interesting you will find a 3 minutes a milkiness of the cup at the first place. The first menu consider it to to cut some matcha, the one contain like 150 mils of milk and the second one contain a 50 mils of water.

Jev · 56:16

Yeah, a lot of dilution. Yeah, that's a dilution, yeah. How do you but your cold your cold brewing it though? Don't you miss out on some of the aromatic profiles or is it is that intentional for the matcha that you select for this application? When we do the cold brew, we intentionally present the aroma or the test from the least soluble part. From the least soluble.

Jev · 56:41

Part That's chocolate tea. So you just whisk vigorously for a long time. No, we need a we make, we make a matcha and we leave it for like 3 hours before serving. Oh it's pre made. Yeah, that is a cold brew fancy because you have to make sure that the tea is the tea is extract themselves because the tea is not like coffee.

Jev · 57:05

When you drink a filter coffee, you filter everything and you just drink the water that you filter everything, right. But the tea called a matcha, the matcha is floating and all the all the time that they are floating is still extract themselves.

Jev · 57:19

Yeah, yeah. And you need time because you want to pitch in or you want to highlight the test of the meat soluble part, which is more like nutty, chocolatey, a bit up to test. This is the I think how beautiful the whole blue is. So it just takes 3 hours to extract all of. That yeah, we did an experiment of the cold brew matcha and the hot brew matcha latte.

Jev · 57:46

And we also doing, we also post a workshop for a customer. So we have a set of a cold brew matcha. This one is freshly made. This one is 3 hours and this one is 18 hours. OK, 18. Hours. That's like standard coffee, cold brew time. 18 hours and we do a blind test.

Jev · 58:12

We don't tell the customer, OK, let's see from each matter, same amount of powder, same amount of the milk, different income. OK, which one you prefer? Some would say this one is small, delicious. Some would say this one is malicious. So it's your choice, but at least you know. Yeah.

Jev · 58:29

Oh wow. Must be so much work to prepare all of these different drinks. It's very complicated. How how how long? Like what's the usual time range for you to develop a recipe? Like how does it usually take? No, I have no framework. No framework.

Jev · 58:46

I just keep it's. The indefinite project until you get it. Right. Yeah, yeah, until we get a right. But who knows, when you find a perfect recipe for for a cup and you really like it at that time when you come back to bring it again like 2 years ago, 2 year later, you might not like it anymore. Really.

Jev · 59:06

Yeah, it happens. Just happened. So it's very different, difficult to answer. Yeah, wow, so much behind the scenes. Yeah. So if you go back to your question at the end of at the beginning about unwise to a much enthusiastic or a cafe or I think there are so much to learn. It's never a finished.

Jev · 59:34

Recipe they know that in Japan it's like an ocean, not something, but the knowledge as a people outside Japan when we have like a more flexible rule to apply is even really, really fun and have to look through it carefully.

Jev · 59:50

It's a constant learning and constant changing. Nothing is never. Maybe that is the part that I I still keep my power brands just have free location. So that's why I still have time to enjoy the thing like this because just go back to the beginning at T level.

Jev · 1:00:08

I like Mata, so that's why I'm doing this. So I don't want to become a big businessman. Yeah. So yeah, like a poetic expression of yourself and your practice. Almost the whole, the whole concept, the whole brand, Yeah. If people come to ask me about the plans, concept, the inspiration, why you think to open a brand, I have a set of answer and the answer is it's maybe the same my inspiration to open a brand. But if people ask me about how do I work pretty much how my thoughts and I put into a matcha, I can talk this all this.

Ryan · 1:00:45

Yeah, it's really an expression of like yourself. That's what's truly authentic. You really feel it here. It's. Yeah. It just comes together in a way that's hard to express. Tea, the lighting, the furnitures, the detail and also how like all the Staffs are making the tea.

Ryan · 1:01:02

Everything is so coherent and so beautiful. And same with the vibe, the staff thing. This never feels in a rush and it's very rare to go to a cafe or any staff establishment that is so nice even to the delivery drivers. Like just sitting in an MTC, it's just walking, watching around, just how nice you can feel the vibe. It's almost hard to put into words like because all these drivers come in, everyone gets treated, everyone gets treated nicely.

Ryan · 1:01:31

Like it just disseminates down to the whole vibe of the whole place. Just the respect and the level of care and the level of intentionality. Even on the cup of the Usucha that I ordered the other morning, it was the exact time to the minute.

Jev · 1:01:46

It wasn't 930, it was 930. Like all of these little details and just come together in a very unique experience. Thanks for saying this. Thanks for notice. I wish I do OK. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for showing.

Ryan · 1:02:01

Us really setting the standard. I think it's creating an experience and a space to appreciate this because we, although all the tea lovers kind of live very solo lives on the Internet almost. We have our practices at home, but it's rare where you can experience this level of caring person, especially outside of Thailand.

Jev · 1:02:21

But I think it's it's changing as more founders start to create spaces like this. Yeah, many people out there in Bangkok or the other part in Thailand have to work really hard to present their their matcha business, try to build up their own customer base. I think it's a fun scene, a fun festival. Most of the time if I have time, I try to visit a cafe of a friend who or the old customer who come to here and get inspired and then they open their own matcha, matcha cafe. Yeah, I really would love to do when I have time. Yeah.

Jev · 1:02:59

And I think the people, like I mentioned, the people try to try to send their stand up, try to make something nice, to treat the customer nicely, to build up the community here. I think I really, I really encourage the people who who think they like, who like matcha, who who try, who want to learn something not from Kyoto or not from Tokyo to come to Bangkok. Yeah, absolutely.

Ryan · 1:03:24

Yeah. I really. Yeah, we do too. Yeah, I think there's a great note to end on. Thank you for yeah. Thank you so much. Pleasure as always and incredible tea. Thank you for having us. Thank you for coming on the podcast again.

Zongjun · 1:03:37

Sure. We're happy to see you and looking forward to your the development of your project. Thanks. Thank you. So we'll try to implement similar centers. Yes, we take great inspiration from many parts of them. Thank you so much and thank you to our listeners.

Zongjun · 1:03:53

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