Interview with Zenkyu Matcha, Kensuke Suji

Ryan · 0:00

Hello and welcome to the Specialty Matcha Podcast. My name is Ryan and this is my co-founder Zongjun, who also goes by Sam. Hello, And we're the cofounders of Sanko Matcha Products. Yeah. We launched this podcast to discuss our learning journey, Matcha, share startup stories and interview experts.

Ryan · 0:14

And today we have Kinski, Suji or Sutishan from Thank You Matcha joining us. Welcome, Suji Song. Hi, thank you so much for having me. I'm so it's nice to be here. Actually, I'm a big fan of this podcast, so I'm super happy to be here.

Suji · 0:30

Thank you. We'd love if you could share a little bit more about your background and where you're based and about founding Zenq. Yeah. Sure. Once again, as Zongjun introduced me, my name is Suji San. I'm a Japanese. My full name is Kensky Suji. I'm 36 years old.

Suji · 0:49

I'm based in Tokyo. My background is I have been in Tokyo and grown up here since elementary school actually, so I don't have much of an international experience but in Japanese and I heard I might be the first Japanese to be in this show, so I'm super excited. Thank you so much for coming on.

Suji · 1:12

Thank you. Thank you. Just to share a bit of my professional background, after graduating from university based in Tokyo, I joined a company called P&G, Procter and Gamble. It's an American company. Maybe you know, you know. That little.

Suji · 1:29

Company over there, you know, exactly, exactly. I was hired based in Japan but I was since then joining that company for 10 1/2 years in marketing function. So my bits background is all about marketing in FMCG brands. I was working on was like Febreze which is air care products like the sprays and which is a shaver, electric shavers. So those are some of the brands.

Suji · 1:55

I had passion and I was running in P&G, I had chance to move to Singapore but mainly working for the Japan market. And that was my professional career. And I recently started this brand, Matcha brand. Thank you Matcha. Let me just explain a bit on why. So as a marketer or as I had expertise in marketing, a good marketer needs to be the professional in that category and the brand and I was working and for air care at the time, I am confident I was the ones who know the most about air care in Japan, some competitors, but I have to be like this. That's the that's the condition of making good brand and good business.

Suji · 2:35

A story for Shaver as well. And when I entered mid 30s, I wanted to do something for Japan and I wanted to handle Japanese product for the next 10 years, 20 years, because as a good marketer, I need to have full passion and spend time on that specific category of product. I really wanted to manage Japanese tradition Japanese products as a Japanese because I believe it's pretty much underrated.

Suji · 3:06

So that was one passion, which is the positive side. I want to talk a bit about the negative side. The life as a marketer in Procter and Gamble was very nice. I could learn a lot, I could grow a lot, but at the same time, the pressure on business delivery or making good numbers keep on growing myself.

Suji · 3:24

That was pretty intense. I enjoy it, but sometimes when I look at my calendar, it's fully packed. And one day I realized it's not that. Those meetings are not my will, you know, somebody asked me to join and do something for them. So.

Suji · 3:38

Know the feelings. Thank you. Yeah, I think it's a common thing, but it happened to me too. So when I do that for 10 years plus, I kind of lost. Do I enjoy what do I want to do in life? Because it was all about managing or kind of answering somebody else's expectation, not really following my heart. So when I did that too much, I felt maybe from mid SE onwards this is not how I want to work for I should discover myself more.

Suji · 4:08

I want to spend time more on what I really value. That's why I just quit. And to be honest, I didn't have an intention to start a matchup brand back then. I just quit and explored what I wanted to do. I was in the library for most of the reading books and talking to myself that that was, you know, what I did right after waiting the job. And then I met chanoyu, urasenke, sado, the tea ceremonies and also Zen meditation, you know, back in the P&G days, sitting still, doing nothing, focusing on breathing, right? That's meditation that made no sense to me. Like that's so introductive.

Suji · 4:47

You know, you need to check your e-mail. You need to to attend meetings. That was my feeling, but when I tried it was very difficult. There's so many mind wandering. I couldn't genuinely focus on my breathing. So that was interesting and I could subjectively feel what I was feeling back then. Sorry, objective, like my feelings, my worries. So I felt a big value on this meditation and Matcha, chanoyu, sado, the tea ceremonies have a background of Zen Buddhism and it has a similarities on those philosophies.

Suji · 5:24

That's why I really went into it. I kept on practicing and Matcha became my life work and that's when I wanted to start my own brand Zenki Matcha. That's the brief story of myself. Very cool. Thank you Total. 180 from like I'm sure very corporate, high paced world Tokyo living to much more introspective and kind of looking in not out.

Ryan · 5:51

It's a very, really interesting story. It's also in a sense very you know, in in kind of like echoing with how a lot of the warlords and samurai back in the day sought shelter, you know, through Zen Buddhism and chanoyu and seek their inner peace. This is very cool.

Suji · 6:10

Yeah, as long as I said my interest is in that area. I might talk a bit more later, but those interesting philosophies of Zen and samurai, chanoyu is very underrated. In Japan, we don't care about it much, especially my generation. So I think that's a very sad thing for the world. It's very unique, but nobody really cares about it. So that's what I want to bring to the world as well. It's kind of great to see this continuation of thoughts and this kind of mentality of seeking inner peace through Zen Buddhism and chanoyu that continues to this days, but there.

Suji · 6:47

You go, I think the Japanese culture, maybe globally you might have thinking that Japanese is hardworking. Like we, I don't know how to say we enjoy the corporate career. You know, we are very good at answering somebody else's expectation and that's how Japan grew in terms of GDP and etcetera in back in 1980s and 90s, right?

Suji · 7:11

Yeah. That time everyone was looking for same happiness. Like if I work hard in that big company, I earn more money than I can buy car, I can buy a house. That was the typical happiness back then and it was OK everyone was following that and as long as you were there, everyone's happy.

Suji · 7:29

You get more wealthier. But nowadays, globally, money doesn't really bring happiness, right? But I feel Japanese are still in that mindset, but their feeling is not there. So everyone has a common sense as a society thinks you should work hard, you should be in the big company, you should do this and that.

Suji · 7:47

But we are feeling, is this really the happiness I want to have in the next few years? So more and more benefit from taking time to talk to yourself, thinking about who you are, what you enjoy. I think those are more and more important everywhere in the world and especially in Japan.

Zongjun · 8:04

No, absolutely a very healthy shift, but we're seeing everywhere. I think so too. Yeah, it's, but it's also interesting that you know like nowadays as you said that you don't quite see a lot of domestic consumption of matcha within Japan.

Zongjun · 8:20

Right. So very bold decision for you to get into this realm in the 1st place and also be kind of curious like what's your, what's your the reaction from like your friend circles or your, yeah. What do your friends think when you tell them I'm starting a matcha brand?

Zongjun · 8:39

Yeah, yeah. What were they? What were their reaction to I? Think that's a great question. So first I want to start by sharing. Maybe you guys know you're, you're an expert in matcha. You know what Japanese is not interested in matcha at all in my view. So it's a sad thing.

Suji · 8:54

But because we are the closest to matcha, to be honest, we have many unnecessary biases towards the product based on this chanoyu and tea ceremony. That's the image of matcha for Japanese and it has a negative bias of it's very complicated, it's super formal, so negative bias that everyone here has.

Suji · 9:17

Hence I talked to some matcha lovers overseas. They come to Japan and get shocked, you know, because matcha cafes are only in the tourist location, not in the Japanese places and when they talk to Japanese friends and so it's matcha at home nobody has Justin, I think.

Kensuke · 9:36

And to be honest I didn't know any matcha brands when I before entering this category so I have never heard about it They. Don't do. That's interesting. Yeah, and I'm pretty sure most of my friends are the same. But to answer your question, because of that bias, when I first said I'm going to do Matcha brand, everyone was like, what? That's an outdated thing, That's a product for grandparents. What are you going to do with it? That's kind of the reduction.

Kensuke · 10:04

Nowadays, it's getting different because the global demand, as you may know, is super high. There's a lot of news going on here too. So some people who are close to the news, they know globally it's a big trend and they understand why I'm doing this from the business.

Kensuke · 10:22

But the first reaction is always very negative to be honest and more thing. Exactly. None this why? Yeah. One more thing is it's my my viewpoint, but this Zen Buddhism or religion related topic is somewhat taboo in Japan.

Kensuke · 10:44

I think it's one of the countries where Christianity has a lowest percentage in the world. I think it's less than 2% or something like that. So most of the Japanese don't don't have a religion. And we do have another negative bias because there's a lot of shocking news caused by a small religion groups that did something bad to the. Society.

Kensuke · 11:06

Yeah, the terrorist. Kind of yeah, trauma is there, talking about Zen or Buddhism, some people don't really like. So I'm working on this a little bit of controversial area. That's my best. So it's easier for me to talk to overseas person like you, to talk to Japanese.

Kensuke · 11:24

I need to choose my words. And if somebody has a negative bias, I cannot convince that person that that sounds like a good business. So that's a little bit of, but these days, especially the younger generation, they're more open minded. So it's getting.

Ryan · 11:39

So in founding the company in the very early days, or maybe when it was just an idea, you, I guess you could have two choices. You could pursue the domestic market and do sort of a contemporary matcha ritual for Japanese people, or you could focus on the international market. So how did you decide which to do and what was that thought process?

Ryan · 11:59

And did you ever consider focusing on the domestic market or is it just there's too many cultural carriers pre consumed, you know, ideas about fixed ideas about what matcha should be and it would be too difficult to do?

Kensuke · 12:12

Right, thanks for the question. Because I come from the marketing background, I approached in a marketing or consumer based way. My style is always consumer based, how we can fulfill the potential needs. So at the beginning, I was open to any consumers.

Kensuke · 12:28

And my first approach is doing more interviews and searching, doing some research on the market, Japan market shrinking. And when I talk to consumer, the reaction is exactly what I shared. Nobody really cared about matcha. And also when I look at the market, there's so many good competitors, very nice competition. Of course, the matcha lover like Marukyu Koyamaen or Ippodo and those big, big legendary companies were there. I had zero knowledge.

Kensuke · 12:56

But the more I research them, they do produce a very nice product in a very reasonable price here in Japan. Yeah, absolutely. But the competition will be harder. The market is shrinking. I couldn't crack the insight of consumers to newly start having matcha at home. On the other side, when I talked to the foreigner known Japanese outside of Japan, there's a huge, I was interviewing like one year before, but there was a huge, huge interest towards matcha.

Kensuke · 13:24

I was shocked that everyone first knows matcha, right, But that's amazing thing. I didn't know everybody knows. And when I talked to Ryan, for example, you were sharing this, you know, maybe in this podcast, how that your podcast is one of a good information source for me to understand what's happening outside of Japan. But I think you're sharing a story of, you know, Starbucks and Chile or somewhere was having matcha latte. And so I was shocked with that story as well and found out similar things are going on everywhere. So there's a very good potential that more and more consumer might enjoy having matcha at home

Kensuke · 14:00

in the near future. And when I check the market using your podcast as well, I felt there's a lot of how to say the product quality is not always good inside of Japan. It's a big mix. Yeah, right, right. And I heard there's many how to say brands that's not so thing a good thing of maybe not from Kyoto, but they say they're from Kyoto. Those stories I found, yeah.

Ryan · 14:27

So there's a huge gap on the demand and the supply side. So that's where I found some opportunity for me to help. Interesting. That's awesome. Very cool actually. So out of my own curiosity, so because we have talked to a lot of, you know, Western brand owners who came to Japan and tried to source tea, you tried to find tea and for them, you know, it comes with a lot of difficulties in terms of like cultural and language barriers.

Ryan · 14:58

Like how was your experience as a Japanese, you know, younger Japanese generation not try to source tea, you source matcha like in all of these, you know, very traditional tea production regions like Kyoto. It was tough for me as well.

Kensuke · 15:11

Two, to be honest, I think it's easier than non Japanese to be honest, because I can communicate at least. But it was still tough. I think it was because I entered the market a little bit late, you know. So when I did the negotiation was one year before.

Kensuke · 15:27

Back then there was already a lot of foreigners in total. It's trying to source like, you know, I went to this matcha tour and everyone was non Japanese. And after that tour everyone was trying to do a business meeting with that tea farm owner, you know, Hey, I'm a cafe, can you source me? So those kind of negotiation was happening already everywhere in total tea farms.

Kensuke · 15:51

Interesting. So for me it was a little bit difficult already. So I went to many farms, but some didn't really listen to me, but at least I could find a good partner. I'm very confident about taste that they offer. So I was lucky.

Kensuke · 16:07

That's it. It was still difficult and I think I'm hearing it's getting even difficult. Most of the suppliers cannot fill the order of the existing customers. So days they're still being any new contracts. So it's going to be even.

Kensuke · 16:22

Difficult. That's crazy even for you. Right. But I think, you know, I enjoy the journey and I think the category will have a lot of innovations. I think you guys are one of the runners there, right? You're trying to bring a new solution to this situation right now.

Kensuke · 16:39

There's so many on productivity. Some people in the industry is trying to innovate. So it's going to be a very, very interesting category for the next few years, I believe. Yeah, we're excited too. A lot of opportunities, right?

Kensuke · 16:53

For example, I think linking to what you guys are doing, but when I talked to the farmers in Kyoto, they were saying like, hey, we are short in matcha supply and I was just interviewing them why that's happening. At the end of the day, the root cause was stone mill productivity. It's not about the leaf.

Kensuke · 17:10

You know, they have the leaf, but the factory who owns the stone mill is super packed. They cannot make the powder. And as you know, stone mill, one hour, 40g, right? So that's the difficult part. Sometimes that becomes a root cause, not the tea leaf. It's an interesting thing.

Ryan · 17:26

So then how can we make the stone meal production more efficient without sacrificing the flavor and taste? I think that's a big business question. Yeah. Yeah, we're working on it. Yeah, I'm very excited about this. We're excited. It's a crazy bottleneck actually that there's not better solutions for milling and that it's such a protected craft because we were even hearing recently that even just the maintenance on ishi-usu commercial, ishi-usu is like another gigantic bottleneck in that not only do not find stonemasons to come, you know, refinish the stones, but the machines break.

Ryan · 18:04

Like it's a bit complicated to fix and usually you have to hire, bring back the company that you sourced it from to do the repairs, which can take forever. So it's an unfortunate bottleneck. That's true. That's true. Yeah. So trying to own them stone mill outside of Japan is going to be very, very difficult from that.

Ryan · 18:24

You have to be very brave, Yeah. So how did you go about like selecting what you wanted to source and what you wanted to like offer from like a a skew or product kind of lens? Thank you. First and foremost about the matcha product, because I come outside of the industry, my single biggest criteria is it has to taste good.

Kensuke · 18:51

The taste is everything. There are many factors, right? Single origin, blend, stone mill, organic, first harvest. There are many, many things that besides the product, but the important thing is it has to taste good. And I came to that because when I interviewed the overseas matcha lovers, they had the similar taste preferences as Japanese. So it was a big finding for me that good matcha, the good taste of matcha is similar.

Kensuke · 19:21

That taste is similar. They don't want bitterness, they want a little bit of umami. Those things were really similar. That was very encouraging. So I had to trust my feeling and some of my company members feeling and select the best matcha that has a good taste.

Kensuke · 19:37

Another weird story about Japan tea industry is I think it's similar to Japan craftsmanship, a go to extreme that they consumer is not there. They just go too extreme. Yeah. And one, one thing for tea is that tea farmers and the blenders, they try to make umami as much as possible. That's for the green tea industry. And when they value the grade of the tea leaf, this is including sencha and more about sencha actually. But the more umami you have, the more higher grade you get. So there's no consumers.

Kensuke · 20:12

And when I as a consumer, when my generation drink that super umami sencha that costs super high, it doesn't taste good. It's like too too strong amino acid. It's like I I feel like I'm how to say like drunk or not something like that. It.

Kensuke · 20:29

Doesn't feel good. So maybe you should try. But so that's the key industry. So it doesn't mean higher grade or the, the, the industry evaluation that didn't matter for me. It's all about how we feel, the consumer feels. And I was lucky to work with one very nice blender in Uji to share the same philosophy as me.

Kensuke · 20:52

He doesn't care about like hand picking, for example. Hand picking will increase the cost significantly. And that person, his expertise is how to blend different matcha tea leaves and come up with a very tasty one with not the crazy price. So it was his philosophy and I really like that one. And I believe we found a very, very nice matcha product which Ryan I think he tried.

Kensuke · 21:17

I did. It's very good. That was very interesting. That was really. Some for me, Ryan. Yeah, I know. I will, I will. Another product I have is not this special, but it's good to have as such a as well. But when I interviewed consumers, you know, cow milk is the main milk here in Japan. But when I interviewed outside of Japan, milk is number 1. And there are various milks like pistachio, almond, soy, and it all has a very unique character, which the high grade matcha doesn't blend good, good enough to be honest. How do you say implicated umami sensitive umami disappears because the milk's flavor is too

Kensuke · 22:00

strong. So we created one product specializing for a latte and it has to have a very strong matcha taste that doesn't that blends well with the milk. So that was a philosophy of blending that product and I made sure the grams is bigger because for that there 3 grams, 4 grams is better in taste. So those are some of them.

Kensuke · 22:22

The. Same number of servings per bag. Exactly, exactly. So my point is really about the taste is #1 priority. We need to make product that consumer loves a good one. And one more thing to add is because our mission is to elevate matcha from just a drink to a ritual for ritual. That's an that whisk is very important. And as you may know, there's a global shortage or the Japan shortage in chasen as well, the bamboo whisk. So I had to find some good supplier on that area as well. And also even they're pretty expensive because it's handcrafted.

Kensuke · 23:01

How can I have my customers enjoy this whisking without purchasing this expensive? So I came up with paper chasen. I searched a lot. I could find a good person. He's a matcha geek. He created this paper chasen by himself. It's origami paper.

Ryan · 23:20

And I'm making sure I attach that paper chasen to all the purchases so that they can start even without the bamboo chasen. Very cool, very cool. I received one in the mail when I got those samples and it was. That was so much fun. Just like some joy.

Ryan · 23:38

Of putting that together was I don't know, so next year because you get some satisfaction too because it's flat packed so like you have to do all the things yourself. It's kind of like putting together IKEA furniture is like.

Ryan · 23:51

Really. I sense of satisfaction that I did as part of the craft of making this this tool. Yeah. Glad to hear that in this process. Question so like Sam and I have had some CPG, FMCG experience so like Consumer Packaged Goods and things that are ready to eat and ready to drink in Japan but used to do quite a bit of work and it was from everything from instant soups to ready to drink teas to various off the shelf products. And in no country have I ever worked in. We have quite a bit of international food and beverage experience across every continent. Actually.

Ryan · 24:28

I've never seen a more consumer centric culture at the CPG level. The companies we worked with cared about every single detail and we were specifically on the sensory or flavor side. Just like these little tiny minute details. They cared about every single one and how the consumer thought of it.

Ryan · 24:47

If they liked it, it was good or bad. If we removed it, would that alienate some consumers and make other consumers love it more? It was actually some of our most sophisticated clients were all in worked for consumer packaged good Japanese companies and that culture does not seem to have touched traditional industries. And as you mentioned with tea and with sencha, there is these like really strange assumptions that the entire industry operates on about how to optimize for quality and it doesn't feel like 1.

Ryan · 25:18

The Japanese consumer is not considered and the international consumers like really not considered. Like why do you think that is in these traditional industries when you do see that consumer centric culture in other parts of Japanese industries, It's an interesting.

Kensuke · 25:36

Question. I only have a hypothesis. So big companies in the tea industry like Itoen, Asahi beer, Kirin beer, all those they are good at marketing and good at understanding consumer needs. I think they learned a lot from the best practices from European companies as well because marketing in general in Japan was not so strong to be honest. But they catch catched up really quickly. Now they are best in class and that's what the combination of the attention to details in the craftsmanship side. So always the product quality I believe is pretty much good in Japan.

Kensuke · 26:13

Like when I was in Procter and Gamble, the domestic companies are the competition. They are not really big globally, but they're super strong in Japan and their product is really good. So, you know, that's the quality of Japanese big companies, which I think if they could find a way to sell globally, can't fly even bigger.

Kensuke · 26:34

That's how I feel. But not many Japanese can operate in the global environment, unfortunately. So that's a big opportunity. Now the traditional side as far it's a different world. You know, when I go to tea farmers or the Craftsman who makes chasen etcetera, I think their motivation is more product oriented.

Kensuke · 26:57

They want to create good products, not to fulfill consumer needs, but for their pride and stuff. So I think umami is 1 big example, right? It's not about consumer. They want to make the best umami ever. That's their motivation.

Kensuke · 27:14

So I think, you know, because they didn't do that too much, they couldn't pick up with the consumer trend that that changes over time. This one is why the lot of traditional Japanese craftsmanship is keep on decreasing, like Sanko for example.

Kensuke · 27:29

It's a good experience. My grandparents was running a sake business before the beer and stuff get big in Japan. It was Osaka that time. It was OK. Every area had their own brands, Osaka, which was very nice culture, but they were just focusing on creating good product and they couldn't really catch the market shrinkage from beer or the alternative coming from the western side, right?

Kensuke · 27:55

So now the number of sake production is keep on decreasing. Now they just started trying to expand to overseas, but pretty late, you know. So I think this consumer centric and marketing is a big opportunity for Japan's small businesses, small categories.

Kensuke · 28:14

And then once they do that marketing, you get some consumer engagement and then you can kind of get some data back about the consumer needs and what they're looking for. Yeah. Right. So I can be a good success model to be honest, you know, because of my passion to work on Japanese product, kind of explored many areas. Unfortunately some of the traditional things like how to say pots and stuff, it's sometimes outdated. There's a lot of techniques, unique ones going in that, but it's all about how do I use this product in everyday life. You know, it's like heavy, you need to request a lot of maintenance.

Kensuke · 28:59

So those products, unfortunately, I think it's very difficult to sell globally. Because it's. History, but no benefit. I think benefit matters. The other thing that I feel the same way is Japanese kitchen knife. It's so nice, so sharp.

Kensuke · 29:14

It really requires a lot of maintenance. Yeah, yeah. You know, if you take really good care of them, like they really performed, but like if you being a little bit slack, you know, they get rustic, they get like the chip if you end up cutting like bone or for knives, they're not supposed to, you know, using it as a cleaver.

Kensuke · 29:33

So it's, yeah, it's interesting. Yeah. And also especially for tea, I feel like because you know, traditionally the consumers, the quote UN quote consumers for Japanese matcha, it's not really everyday commoners like us.

Kensuke · 29:50

So there's a very different, I guess, quality standard. I, I would assume historically that kind of cascade down to, you know, nowadays market. That's my, my, my observation. I don't know if you feel the same way. So design but but definitely we're seeing changes, but it's just happening slowly. Yeah.

Kensuke · 30:10

My hunch on this matcha is similar as mindfulness. Mindfulness, I think the origin is the Asian world like Japan, China. But as said, Japan had a little bit of negative bias towards that religious stuff. So nobody valued those kind of thinking.

Kensuke · 30:28

But I think the Western countries found this concept of mindfulness and Zen Buddhism. For example, Steve Jobs, Google, they are very good at making rationales, a study on the benefits, making programs to so that everyone can implement in everyday life. And then it came back to Japan.

Kensuke · 30:47

We didn't value, but the Western countries valued. And we were like, maybe it's a good thing and we did it again. So I'm pretty sure the same thing will happen. In fact, when I talk to similar generation people and explaining all this stuff, they get really interested.

Ryan · 31:02

And some people already tried and they're continuing, you know. So I think the welcome right now, there's so many negative bias to go. So for the lovers who come to Japan, I don't get shocked. What is drinking? Matcha and mats of ours are only in the tourist place. Wow, you have a very different battle to fight Sudis. He picked a very interesting path because it's very unusual to have a Japanese founded international market facing matcha brand.

Kensuke · 31:30

I actually can't think of one that's not like a really old traditional house. Any matcha companies that are Japanese rounded contemporary brands? Right, right. And I enjoy really like I get orders from unexpected countries, which is really fun you know and I can have B2C good thing is I can interact directly with consumers. Those are really fun and I by myself, I am believing I share the same vision as you guys.

Kensuke · 31:58

I understand you guys are trying to bring freshly ground matcha to the world, right? And it might be different, but I feel the same and much high quality matcha is really good. It's a life changing thing. So I hope I can bring that as much as possible. And I worked on the logistics first, you know, to enable the global shipping much.

Kensuke · 32:17

A good thing is it's light and it's small, so it's easier than the good Japanese food like fish, sushi or fruits. That's going to be very difficult. But Mata is easier relatively. So I believe there's a big opportunity. No doubt, yeah.

Ryan · 32:35

Where have you seen the most uptick in business internationally speaking? Is it mostly coming from the US or from Europe or from from other markets? And also, what is the most surprising country that reached out to you? Oh yeah, 2 GB.

Kensuke · 32:50

Yeah, it was interesting. As expected. US was big. By the way, I recently started, so it's a small business still, but US was big first, Europe was OK, but nowadays I see the Middle East picking up really rapidly. Middle East, very interesting.

Kensuke · 33:08

I have to learn more in this area, but Middle East, Saudi Arabia, UAE, those are big, big orders and interesting countries which I really enjoy seeing in the Google map is like, you know, movies, Cyprus. Cyprus, OK. Those are interesting, yeah, countries, but I'm seeing it is actually a worldwide content. Yeah.

Ryan · 33:35

I think the Middle East market is actually very underserved at the moment. We've gotten a lot of outreach from people in the Middle East and it's because their cafe culture is so strong. And you know, you have people hanging out at coffee shops as sort of at a third place because, you know, they're primarily, they don't drink alcohol. So like a lot of the social interactions are happening at cafes, which stay open until like 2:00 AM. We used to do, I used to do a lot of work in Dubai and I was just shocked at the quality and the experience of cafes there. And I remember seeing some matcha, but it really feels like I haven't been back in a few

Ryan · 34:15

years, but it really feels like it's picking up because people want something that's a little healthier and a more balanced energy profile. And we have yet to have seen someone really come in and own that market from from a brand.

Ryan · 34:30

There's small, a couple small regional players, but it seems that there it's a very underserved market at the moment, yeah. Even in places like Egypt, there are like 3-4 new, like Matcha Cafe just popped out in Cairo. Like in the past one or two years, I, I've been using Cairo as my kind of the point of the transfer, you know, flying between Asia and the US and yeah, it's like really blooming right now. Interesting.

Ryan · 34:59

Yeah, it's fun to. Yeah, yeah. It's big opportunity. It's fun to be in this industry, really. It is, I mean, and like to set the pace right in like these emerging markets because it's like the first players that come in and like those narratives that end up winning because like I think in some markets, we just talked with someone from the Philippines and a lot of local players are mislabeling matcha. That's not even matcha fake green tea powder. It has additives.

Ryan · 35:30

It's a very different battle because consumers are already aware of what matcha is. They've been tasting this fake product. That fake product becomes their reality, right? And now you have to do all of this work from all of these brands reintroducing what matcha actually is. And it's the opportunity to get it right in these emerging markets that are just beginning to like, want. Matcha is so high.

Ryan · 35:57

And if the Japanese market doesn't fill it, then like China will, Indonesia will, Vietnam will. Thailand, I know in Chiang Rai, they're making some very, there's some joint venture with a Japanese company up in Northern Thailand making something that's sort of like matcha. The color doesn't indicate it, but like these are like the opportunity exists, but it's really important that they get good supply early on.

Kensuke · 36:27

Yeah. So that people can form a real preference for the real thing, not for. I don't want to call it a fake thing, but for something that really is not what most people would consider matcha. I agree. I agree. I think you know, yeah, I wish everyone can have a chance to taste the real high quality matcha and that's my wish and your wish as well. And I was inspired by your conversation on calling it as a speciality matcha and your reference on the wine, coffee, how Japanese government can do a better job in this area. I totally agree.

Kensuke · 37:02

I have to catch up on this area. But right now there's no rule at all on definition of matcha, how to grade, what ceremonial means, etcetera. So those are interesting conversation that I hope will come up because nowadays everyone can talk about, hey, I'm matcha, I'm ceremonial, I'm from Japan, etcetera. So.

Ryan · 37:25

Even like from Japan is not like safe either. Like we've heard like people like start milling, like sencha, gyokuro, and it's not matcha either. Right, right. It's very complicated right now. Yeah, yeah. It's easy to make a powder, so they do a lot of.

Ryan · 37:48

Yeah, yeah. But like, once you've tried the real thing, like, it's a big difference, I guess the product itself will, you know, tell the story by the end of the day. I hope so. Or they just invent a new category. I mean, imagine a gyokuro latte, like a few powder gyokuro like you do matcha and it's like a big white space open field like that.

Ryan · 38:09

I would like order a gyokuro latte just to taste it and maybe you can do something to make it taste good. But like, trying to pass that off as matcha is just praying on people's ignorance, Yeah. Bastardizing the name of Matcha.

Ryan · 38:23

Yeah, but what could be a very interesting product on its own, like it's, you know, just don't call it what it's not. Like hojicha powder that tastes good. Yeah, yeah. Hojicha is said to be next trend after matcha. That's what I'm hearing.

Kensuke · 38:39

Yeah, that's what we can do. I haven't feel that much, but let's see. What's your personal preference on hojicha and hojicha powder? Do you like it? Yeah, I have one product actually as well, OK, kukicha stems, which has a lot of umami premium hojicha powder.

Kensuke · 38:56

I like it, especially it has low caffeine as you know. So in the evenings and the ritual, the process is same. So I like it, but it's for that day really. That's what I felt. I just in many things it's not good to drink at its own. It's not that good.

Kensuke · 39:12

But when you blend with milk, it is really good. It's similar to coffee, like the roasted process, so maybe for beginners it might be easier to enter the market. Yeah, it's a nice bridge product. Right. And it's more reasonable pricing versus matcha, so? That too.

Kensuke · 39:30

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So this sort of is, is one last question, love to know what your future plans are that your company this coming year and into the future like what's what, what's your, your growth plans and how would you like to see the industry changes as we all move into the future together? I think we have discussed but I just started the business and I'm enjoying the journey so far.

Kensuke · 39:57

Our brand is rooted in the good product and the ritual making much process a good moment to pause in busy daily life. I forgot to tell this but when I interviewed. Matcha lovers who make matcha at home, I asked them, who do you drink matcha first? They say it's for health benefits. I like the color, I like taste.

Kensuke · 40:19

But when I say you like the process of making it? And they were like, I haven't thought about it, but I realized that's where I value the most for carving out sometime in the morning. That's the calm down, enjoying matcha that whisking and the drinking process they enjoy.

Kensuke · 40:38

So I'm very confident that this can be a new habit to everyone is busy. Everyone is might be tired, overwhelmed, but matcha has the power to pause. Zen QS Q it's meaning pause. So there's in Japanese. I want to create moment to pause through the matcha preparation and drinking good or bad matcha, you have to drink it after you whisk. You know, you cannot let it there because the taste will be bad.

Kensuke · 41:01

So I want to make this new habit as much as possible. I wish I can through that process, I wish I can contribute to everyone's health and mindfulness, which is very important in the life today. That's my vision. Of course, I want more and more people to try our brand and this whisking process. So that's what I'm trying to do this wise. I don't know.

Kensuke · 41:25

I I'm thinking of opening some stores or collaboration with cafes I'm still exploring or maybe like my. Elsewhere in Japan or else. Anywhere in Japan maybe first, but the the focus for me is I started online but I want to make a place where people can experience a brand experience, a whisking and that can be cafes, hotels.

Kensuke · 41:56

I'm still considering, but I hope I can make some good plans and good collaboration. That's awesome. That's awesome. Yeah. Really helps kind of extend the reach and the leverage. It's when we all work together and partner, especially getting into places that, you know, matcha wouldn't normally be too.

Kensuke · 42:12

So it's exciting. And we really hope to see like more and more younger generation Japanese persons, people like you, Sujisa, to join this this journey with us. Yeah, I hope. You guys are really the future of Japanese matcha. Yeah, I, I was, you know, wondering because it's a big trend, you know, globally it was anticipating more and more young generation to enter the category post. Not so much, to be honest.

Ryan · 42:39

I I'm just checking the press releases in Japan, not so many. I hope you become a success model for to inspire others. Make matcha cool. Yeah, yeah. And people will join that's. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on.

Kensuke · 42:54

It was great. It was great talking great learning the story and you you have a really good product and it's really like well priced for the quality. It's having tried it myself, I really have been enjoying it. Thank you so much. No, thank you so much for having me. It was my one of my dreams when I started the matcha brand to join this podcast.

Ryan · 43:14

Wow, really? I hope I can come again and share some even more interesting stories. So I'll do myself, of course. Yeah, anytime. Nice to have you back on and hopefully we can meet in Tokyo. I'm sure Sam and I will be there maybe if not this year, early next year sometime. Yeah, let.

Ryan · 43:31

Me know, let me know. Awesome. Well, thanks so much for coming on to our listeners. Thank you so much for listening. And if you enjoyed it, please consider sharing it with a friend and we'll see you in the next one. Thanks.

Zongjun · 43:40

See you in the future.