Interview with Unearthed Gallery, Marcel

Ryan · 0:00

Hello and welcome to the Specialty Matcha Podcast. My name is Ryan. This is Zongjun. Hello. Who also goes by Sam and we're the cofounders of Sanko Matcha product. Yeah, we launched this podcast to discuss our learning journey, Matcha, share startup stories and interview experts.

Ryan · 0:15

And today we have Marcel from Unearth Gallery trying our podcast. Hello, Marcel. Hello. Thanks so much for coming on. Yeah. Thank you for long time coming. I think we first met like 2 months ago, now three months. Yeah, it was also a coincidence that I found your podcast and and despite the fact that I didn't know you personally, like clicked very quickly in a sense of like the approach and the topics you're dealing with. So I was really intrigued by the idea of getting in contact with you guys.

Ryan · 0:44

Awesome. And thanks. Yeah, thanks for reaching out. It's it's really cool to see that like we had a lot of similar interests both on the tea side but also on the ceramic side, which was which was cool. Could you give a little background for everyone, like sort of your tea journey, how you got into tea, tea wear and sort of everything that you're working on?

Marcel · 1:01

Yeah, I mean, my tea journey started like 15 years ago now, I think, when I was just finding a random Chinese tea tin and actually my mom's cupboard. And it was like a Taiping Houkui like, and I didn't know that it was anything special.

Marcel · 1:16

I was just drinking it during my, my bachelor's thesis, like writing my bachelor's thesis. And then after finishing the tin, I was so hooked on this flavour and like how amazing this tea was that I I went to a very deep rabbit hole.

Marcel · 1:32

Interesting. Yeah, I think it was like a gift from a friend of ours who was in the solar industry and like the PV industry and went to China regularly and he got it, got it as a gift. You know, China, you always get tea as a gift. So it's ended up with me, which was a good. Yeah, Houkui is one of those pressed, very long, flat green tea that has a very sweet and umami taste. It's, it's very unique, like flavour profile and also visually it's like very interesting. And that time it was almost impossible to find anything in Germany or Europe online, even any of that kind of teas. And I was first surprised by the

Marcel · 2:15

prices and then also by what the offerings of these very specialized stores were. That's what was maybe 1 online shop in Germany who offered it. Yeah, that that was that kept me starting. And at the same time a very good friend of mine who was more into like the like West Coast hippie culture. And son, he read some books and they were drinking matcha and tea there and and like, you know, like kind of Alan Watts circle and stuff.

Marcel · 2:43

And there was also like already kind of a bit of a tea culture, Western tea culture and, and in the US, which then we kind of like came together and instead of beer, we're drinking tea every weekend. That's cool. How so you're based in Munich. How have you seen that the the tea scene matcha scene evolve? And since you you're the kind of first inspiration I. Think it like it really with my personal journey, it developed like like very in a parallel way in a sense of that like 15 years ago, it was a very niche thing.

Marcel · 3:22

Like it's still very niche, but it, it was more and more easy to buy certain teas. It started with Japanese green teas like sencha and there were like new importers starting and supplying these kind of kind of mom and pop tea shops.

Marcel · 3:39

And there were more and more specialized online vendors coming up. And it really evolved a lot in the last like 10-15 years, I would say. Nowadays there's even vendors in Germany who are specialized only in, in yancha from Wuyi or others are specialized only in Taiwanese teas and so on. So yeah, so there's a wide spectrum of specialized vendors. And since a few years, there's also these tea festivals. So I think since five years.

Marcel · 4:08

Wow. Since maybe 2018, nineteen, like the whole tea scene really kicked off with with these tea festivals. Yeah, so I think that's similar to the USI guess. Yeah, there's more and more festivals also in Canada. Yeah, although I think the European ones are a little bit earlier, like the Prague Tea Festival's the really big one, right?

Marcel · 4:30

Yeah, Prague is. They have two now. They used to always have one which was had a bit of more like like alternative vibe. And now they have a new one which is very, I would say like speciality vendor focused and international. And then there was the Berlin Tea Festival, which is like more the kind of the biggest very specific tea festival which is running since 2018, I think.

Marcel · 4:55

And yeah, that the first edition, I missed it because I was on my tea sabbatical that time where I went to visit a lot of tea growing areas and also pottery places and 2019 and I joined the festival was really nice just as a visitor.

Marcel · 5:11

You went to Japan on your tea sabbatical. No, Japan was already early. I went for 3-4 weeks and and then in the tea sabbatical was I was like having a trip from India, southern India to Shanghai by Rd. and that was like not really all Rd. but I went to Taiwan in between and was 2 * 4 weeks in China. It was like kind of like a bit the Bodhidharma trail. Where'd you start in southern India? Were you in like Chennai or more in like Goa side? I started in Kerala.

Marcel · 5:43

Actually I went to Mumbai and then I visited some friends because I have some. I did some exchange semester in southern India in 2011 or 10. And then I visited some France and I went to a pottery studio in southern India during the winter because I was like, I'm going to spend the winter in southern India and then and worked on my own pottery.

Marcel · 6:04

And then from January onwards I was travelling N until May. So it was like 5 months of travelling from southern India to Shanghai and went through, yeah, like obviously Darjeeling, Assam, Myanmar and Thailand, Laos, China.

Marcel · 6:21

OK. And it went in like through Kunming and then went to. Exactly. OK then from Kunming to Guangdong and and there I missed the missed the train so I had to take a flight because I was at the the wrong train station in Kunming.

Marcel · 6:40

I didn't realise. No. Because it was my first train ever in China. It's its own system. Yeah, because they have these endings. And then if you don't, if you book through an English app, you bit. I got a bit confused. Yeah.

Marcel · 6:52

And then then I went to Hong Kong and from there to Taiwan for another month. So it's like kind of like I had a dual, dual entry visa for China and then I maximized each entry. OK, nice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because then you came out back in, yeah. Yeah.

Marcel · 7:10

So basically I went a few days to Chaozhou and to Wudongshan, and then I went to Hong Kong. And that you leave China basically in Hong Kong. I spent a few days in Hong Kong and I took a flight to Taipei from there and came back to Fujian. So it's kind of like a maximized trip. I want to see as much as possible because that time I was working in consulting and I was not sure if I want to continue. So I took a sabbatical and did this whole like pottery and tea trip.

Marcel · 7:42

And it was also really like the kick off. Well, the the foundation of my current business. Also because that time I had my first connections with potters and you know, a lot of people also westerners living in in China and making tea or selling tea online and stuff like that.

Marcel · 8:00

So this this like my circle of contacts grew a lot in this time. Super cool. Very interesting. Coming from all the way in Kerala and ending up in Fujian, it's that's crazy. That's cool. Yeah, I mean, I wanted to also see this whole like kind of like the origin area of tea, like the Eastern Himalayas, you know, like the Yunnan border area, but also and see what happens in Laos and like maybe Thailand and Myanmar. Myanmar was a bit difficult obviously, but even there I could like I did a short hike and I like guided hike and I saw some old tea trees.

Marcel · 8:39

Cool. Yeah, by the did you? Do that in northern Laos too. I heard there's a bunch of tea production up there. Yeah, Northern Laos I went to, but it's super, super difficult to get there. Like I think our bus broke down twice in this like 8 hour journey from I think it's this is tea cool.

Marcel · 8:57

I forgot the name now, but basically it's really remote. Phongsaly province, I think the prefecture Phongsaly province and they have a few villages which have really old trees. But the processing is a bit weird. They make it like almost like a green tea, like a green pu'er.

Ryan · 9:12

So it doesn't age very well. Well I heard, I heard quality is getting better. I have a friend, a friend of my girlfriend lived in Laos for like 8 years doing a lot of NGO work. And one of his projects was in northern Laos setting up a tea cooperative to raise tea quality and kind of borrow a lot of pu'er processing methodologies.

Marcel · 9:34

And they're trying to promote it and do some eco tourism and kind of boost the quality of the the region. I was just in Iwu in Vietnam, which is very close to the Laos border. There are a lot of smugglers of bringing Laotian tea leaves into Iwu and gets processed as Yunnan pu'er nowadays. It's very interesting.

Marcel · 9:55

It's kind of like how people import the Kagoshima tea into Uji and makes Uji. Just like just on a motorbike in Laos border. I think that that this is like the problem, you know, like it, it is not really enabling the farmers there to produce their own tea, but rather like, you know, that the EU merchants and tea makers can sell that tea basically almost the same price as their own tea.

Marcel · 10:20

But yeah, I think Laos is a very poor country. They could really profit from a bit more like individual TC in there and selling it abroad to Europe and US maybe because to China it probably doesn't work on that way. You know, you have to go through EU.

Marcel · 10:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't think the Chinese would be that interested in the Laotian pu'er production as much as the West would be. Because then it's like New World pu'er. Like it's, you know, new. Actually, you get into the same problem with matcha.

Marcel · 10:51

Can you even call it pu'er if it doesn't come from Yunnan? It's like basically the same forest processed in the same way. There are the same people actually, a lot of those are Yao ethnically and Bulan people because like the border is quite recent compared to, you know, the history of those people living there.

Marcel · 11:10

So they used to be just, you know, one big region of the same people doing the same thing. Exactly. I think they have much more in common with each other than they have common with the Han Chinese, kind of all those mountain tribes or like minorities.

Marcel · 11:25

They have different cultures, but they have a certain way how they live. And it doesn't matter if you're in, I don't know, maybe upper Assam even, or in north of Myanmar or northeastern Myanmar or in China. It is very similar. You know, they all have a certain way of living. It's.

Ryan · 11:41

Interesting. I guess pivoting back into matcha, you recently did a bunch of like specialty matcha workshops and with people in Germany. Would love to learn a little bit more about how you structured that and then sort of what the response was from from people there. Were they, and I'm also kind of curious if there were tea people that are the general tea people that wanted to learn more about matcha or they like came in really fresh with with not as much contact.

Marcel · 12:06

I mean, first of all, the motivation was kind of to offer it to everyone to really like offer a workshop to everyone who's interested in matcha as a kind of as a product and beyond only the matcha latte craze and wants to discover and it's really open for everyone. But because I have a existing customer base, which also this is my, this is my past workshops and I have one workshop that's called Journey of Tea, which I'm offering every month. And it's kind of a yeah, introduction into let's say, speciality tea from historical perspective. And I introduced the, let's say 5 to 6 different types of tea in the tasting also.

Marcel · 12:49

And a lot of people came from that tasting. And I also some new, new customers who, yeah, came specifically for the matcha and they, they want to learn about matcha. They kind of like probably drink a lot of matcha latte and they want to learn how to drink it at home or how to drink maybe pure matcha and what to care about if you make decisions as a consumer.

Marcel · 13:11

I think that's the kind of two, two groups which came together there. And yeah, the motivation behind the workshop is really to also offer like education to to a wide range of people because, yeah, everybody's talking about the green powdered green tea, but a lot of people don't even know what they're drinking. It's a bit like, you know, cocoa pulver, which you buy in the supermarket.

Marcel · 13:34

But actually Matcha has a very specialized product. So I think, you know, it's comes from the teas for me. So it's not comparable. And I think there is nothing like that yet here in Munich or Germany, kind of like a workshop which really offers the like kind of holistic approach to what matcha can be kind of. And I think that the, yeah, I think the two pillars of any kind of like sustainable growth for me, doesn't matter if it's speciality tea or speciality matcha is always like kind of the education part and the transparency part. I think like I even remembered I, I gave a talk in this 2019 Berlin Tea Festival, like for B

Marcel · 14:16

to B audience where it talked about numbers of the tea market. And I was like telling them we don't know where we are currently in the market. You know, maybe there was a bit hype and now everybody opens up online shops, but they would all close down in two years, which was the fact as some of them did close down. And how can we sustainably grow as this industry together? I think it's always important.

Marcel · 14:38

First of all, you have to educate your customers and then you have to be transparent about your products as much as possible. Yeah, this workshop obviously is about the education part and enabling the customers then to distinguish a transparent and non transparent matcha brand or something like that. In that sense.

Marcel · 14:55

That's the idea also by that. So what was the the event like? Like if we participated, like, what would we expect? Like how did you structure the experience? So it is at the end, it is kind of a guided tasting with a, a short practical part at the end. It is around 2 to 2 1/2 hours and I basically separated in in 4 sections which each have one tasting in it. And I start at the real basics.

Marcel · 15:25

So what is matcha? And we talk about the kind of like rough definition of matcha, where it comes from the, the matcha from, from Song dynasty and talk a bit about, yeah, what distinguishes matcha from like other basic Japanese green teas so that people have an understanding just very roughly for the beginning. And then we already start to try our first tea, which is, which is a tea which I currently am selling. It's like a blend by Marukyu Koyamaen, specifically for the European Union.

Marcel · 15:56

And it's just like kind of for me, like this kind of benchmark idea of what matcha used to be and like a good quality matcha used to be until now and was consumed also widely like in the, in the tea ceremony sphere, but also just for matcha lovers.

Marcel · 16:13

I would say it was very accessible. And I think it's good for them to try like a blend in the beginning to see, OK, what is a solid, well blended matcha. But from there we take a kind of a turn and look at this line up of Marukyu Koyamaen which is like, there's an interesting chart, which I also show in the workshop.

Marcel · 16:28

It's like a line of the different qualities. So they have a basic line up which is not the specific versus anchor line up or something, just the basic line up. And it's basically this kind of matrix of like softness and bitterness and boldness and lightness.

Marcel · 16:44

And I think. And then there are these different matcha cans lined up in one single line basically. And you can see how. Two by two classic, 2 by 2. Exactly. It's a one dimensional line in this two-dimensional space. It shows you how like 1 dimensional approaches kind of obviously the ingredients are multidimensional because they have so many different like lots they blend into those teas. But at the end what they want to get is this like very simple, like, OK, this tea costs double as much as this and so on. So if you see the prices, you know, at some point it's, it's like steps of like maybe ¥800.

Marcel · 17:22

At some point it just doubles the price, doubles and doubles and doubles. So it's, it's, I think it's not, it's not bad. It's just their approach. I think it's for a first guess, it's very easy, but we want to go beyond that and understand a bit more what this product actually is. And that's where I come in with this speciality term because the workshop is called speciality Matcha workshop. A bit like your opinion in the sense of your podcast, Like how do you term or use a term to show that you want to go beyond the, the kind of very classical blends and want to show a bit more the specificness, the

Marcel · 17:55

specific characteristics of different types of matchas. And that's what we do that in the second step, define what is what should be on a label of a matcha. And I like from my perspective, in the sense of like we start with the growing regions, with the cultivars, with the shading technique and how long it's shaded, then maybe even fertilization methods. And then in the sense of is it stone ground or not? And all these differences where you really say, OK, these are different dimensions and each matcha can be kind of classified a bit in these dimensions.

Marcel · 18:32

And it gives us a first good guess to estimate how this product could taste. That's kind of like the core part of the workshop to learn a bit about those. It's kind of like a table you would put you would wish to have on every website which sells speciality matcha, you know like these kind of categories which you want to have filled out every time you see a product on a website that.

Ryan · 18:54

'D be a dream. I have a quick question, What is the difference in taste between the EU compliant Marukyu blends and the non EU like the ones that you would buy in Japan? What's your experience? Is it like pretty close? Because I imagine it has to be much more compliant from our pesticide residue requirement. But like, how does that translate in the cup? I think they're very comparable.

Marcel · 19:22

I think they might have a bit less umami and like maybe hint more bitterness. Like it's not like I think from the quality, the subjective quality, I feel like they're very similar, but maybe some of the specific traits are a bit different. Like that's why I say I think the strong umami, it's very hard to do with kind of like more organic fertilizer and stuff. And then also like very, very, very low bitterness. It's also very difficult without the use of pesticides. And these are not pesticide free teas, but they are blended in a way that they.

Marcel · 20:03

Have very, very low pesticides because yeah, they're just specific pesticides. I guess they're, they're not even registered in the EU, European Union, for use. And that's why the, the the minimal residue level is very, very low. The allowed one in the European Union. So basically if they use something in Japan and it's allowed, it might be like blacklisted in Europe because nobody uses it.

Marcel · 20:26

It's a specific tea. I think in Taiwan it's the same. Interesting. So it's not even on their radar because it doesn't even matter from an agricultural perspective in the EU. Yeah, exactly. Because I think they don't they don't even apply it to any crop here. So and probably they don't really look into the research about the pesticide.

Marcel · 20:44

That's my understanding. But I'm also starting to learn in this topic only because it's it's the question how much difference is between EU standard and let's say JAS organic? How much is this gap? How many teas fall into this gap?

Ryan · 21:00

Yeah, that would be an interesting research. Probably pretty big like from what I understand, the EU could do a lot more to better understand and then regulate tea, especially coming from other countries. That's I think Ian from Yunomi was telling us that, but if if there was a bit more research done like better tea could enter the EU and that they just take a little too hard of a line with with our at least my understanding.

Ryan · 21:28

Yeah, I think that the the level is basically so low that that it's like just if it's just registered basically in the test, then it's almost not compliant. You were telling us something very interesting about the JAS certification and how you can look at like some different matcha brands or matcha labels and if the serial number is still on, you can actually trace it back all the way.

Marcel · 21:51

It was really interesting to learn on our last call. I had never heard that before, but was nobody a good tip? Yeah. I mean, it depends if it's registered on the farmer or on the company. I guess it depends on who labels the tea, but the person who labels and has a certificate has to put the number on and I think the last person in the chain basically puts the JAS number on and depending on who packaged it and so on, it could be the farmer or the producer or it could be the wholesaler or someone. It's like much intelligence.

Marcel · 22:25

Some some verified provenance that goes back. But at the end, when I try to pin down certain matchas which I tasted somewhere, it is often not so difficult to find out who the producer could be. Because the amount of producers, especially the amount of people who then grind the matcha is very limited. Because as you realise, I think a lot of farmers, they don't grind themselves and they don't have any capacity to grind their own matcha.

Marcel · 22:56

So like, I think for example, in Yame, it's really like the farmers are not really unable to produce their own matcha. It's all going to the big players, and I mean the big players doing a good job. But still, it could be very interesting, for example, when you introduce Euro or mill in the future and I can go to Japan and find a really small farmer who has some really interesting tencha.

Ryan · 23:17

I mean if he has the ability to make tencha then I can buy it from him and grind a tea in Munich. That's our dream too. It's the to shorten the, to close the infrastructure gap to because there's a lot of consolidation. I mean, there's a lot of power in the way that like the, the tea actually moves throughout the supply chain and they're so concentrated at certain points.

Marcel · 23:41

It'd be interesting to see if we can shake things up a little bit. Yeah, I guess it's also about how risk averse those farmers are. If they are a bit more, they're a bit more bold, they would just kind of like like pay someone to grind it.

Zongjun · 23:59

And I think that's possible. I guess they have the network, but then they have the risk of like selling it themselves. So the question is like, you know, if you don't sell it yourself, why would you grind it yourself? It is kind of chicken leg problem also financially I guess for them. And that's when the clock starts from a quality perspective. Yeah, it's kind of similar situation in poor to they outsource the pressing process to kind of a consolidated factory, similar situation because it's very expensive to acquire the machineries and the labour and the government doesn't necessarily issue the

Zongjun · 24:37

production certificate anymore to individual oppressors. So kind of similar situation in Japan too. It's getting very expensive to acquire lands and build new factories and buy machineries from Shizuoka. Yeah, I mean, I'm wondering about the whole tencha factories, like, because there's a lot of sorting going on.

Zongjun · 24:57

I mean, in China as well when you have these like funkian sorting things going on, you know, like which was done by hand before, but nowadays it doesn't make sense anymore. I guess for for certain qualities, even like better, poorer will be sorted with machine because it's just cheaper. And then also you have to go probably to someone and let it get it sorted.

Marcel · 25:20

But then I think in, in Japan also those tencha factories, I don't know if they're like some of them communal or only the big players have the tencha factories And like all this like, you know, the sorting of the kind of, yeah, like the stems and the veins. Like after the step where they cut, cut the leaves and, and, and and pieces and then sort out the, the veins. Think they they have this like there are these very advanced machines which can this array of cameras and they can like use pressure air to air.

Marcel · 25:52

Check out those. Exactly. And this thing, I mean, doesn't make sense to buy it as a farmer if you use it like twice a year. And it's, it's also all those, all those things are bottlenecks. And I'm coming back to the workshop.

Marcel · 26:06

I'm now working also because I have to use the, the, the matches, which I'm offering right now also in the workshop. I'm now working with one farmer in Nishio. And he luckily has his own milling facilities, but they're also probably limited. So the question is like, how much can I get if I want to get more?

Marcel · 26:27

And he does his single cultivar production. So he has 4 cultivars he picks by hand or he people pick by hand and they're shaded quite long. And there is a like single cultivar Saemidori, Tsuyuhikari, Okumidori, I think. And then also interestingly, Benifuuki single cultivar matcha, which is like very unique thing.

Marcel · 26:52

So he he produces this like anti-pollen or anti-allergy tea as a matcha. And it's interesting because you know, like you have one farmer in one region who does basically like probably the fields are just next to each other and he does like the same process. The harvesting date obviously arise due to the cultivar and it wouldn't be possible to pick all this by hand. But that's like really interesting to to taste the side by side and see the differences which only the cultivar gives. And that's like kind of tasting for the second part and see, like, here are your criterias.

Ryan · 27:24

And this is an example to see and taste it in a cup. Everything is the same, but one one variable changed and it's very different matcha. I think it's like cultivar driven. That set of tasting experiences is either really hard or really expensive to put together.

Marcel · 27:42

That's that's a cool from a workshop perspective because you have a large enough group, it's OK like, but even just acquiring these kind of back-to-back samples quite difficult. So it's that's super cool. Yeah. So basically I'm also offering now two of his.

Marcel · 27:57

Yeah, hand picked matches and they're also reasonably priced because it's not such a famous growing area and I think they're pretty good. The value, I'm just like, no, no advertisement. I'm just like personally I want to only sell stuff which I would also consume myself for that price point. So that's my approach with everything. And that's yeah, just nice.

Marcel · 28:16

I got this specifically also for the workshop because it's really nice to have this option to try those teas really next to each other. It's, it's difficult because as you know, like the experience of drinking matcha or even the experience of drinking other tea, especially like teas which have like kind of a long finish or some kind of change happening like a oolong or something like that.

Marcel · 28:37

Especially you. It's very hard to say, oh, this comes from this and that comes from that tea because maybe the sweetness which stays in your mouth one minute after drinking. Yeah. Which one was it? Now you know. Problem with the sequential tasting. But what's interesting is you can really taste at the Saemidori.

Marcel · 28:53

It's like basically has no bitterness at all and is more light flavour and also more bit more in the vegetable side, but has a nice creaminess. And Tsuyuhikari is like so much bolder, a bit more astringent, but it also has more umami and a more complex flavor, I would say overall.

Marcel · 29:15

And they both have kind of a nice finish. So so in that sense, it's nice for them to try those both. And also like, you know, it's the first experience of trying two different cultivars next to each other for most of them.

Marcel · 29:26

Interesting. So in terms of, you know, people's preference, what are your observations like? Do people generally prefer umaminas in the tea or how? Like do they like the bitterness or do they not like the bitterness at all? I mean, this is something I'm working on in the this workshop because the first two sessions I, I made them also with feedback form like everybody had to give feedback. That's why it was like for a better ice than it will be in the future.

Marcel · 29:53

That's like collected some data and interestingly, people then like, I feel like that from all the matches, people then think that the blend still is very balanced and they really like the blend, the Marukyu Koyamaen blend.

Marcel · 30:08

But I think the preferences are very different. And I think because some people gave me feedback, oh, they want to try even more matcha and like they, they couldn't get enough. And then some other people are like, oh, this was like very strongly prepared in the sense of the ratios I'm using and so on. Maybe for beginners, it would be better to make it lighter. So it's it's really like at the end where you at with your personal preference and also your journey. Interesting.

Marcel · 30:40

Interesting. Do these people have experience with other beverages? Like are they like coffee drinkers or wine drinkers at all? I think most of them they they, they drink tea regularly. I think that like some of most of them had some experience in tea and some of them in coffee, but I, I, I didn't specifically ask about wine. That's good.

Marcel · 31:03

Good question actually, which I should put in the the questionnaire now to see what other. Yeah. Like speciality products. They're like consuming. It's a bit like sake, for example, the first time people, someone tries sake and they're used to wine, they cannot really deal with those flavors that they're often a bit too bold. And even sake as a Japanese product has umami and like sometimes it's just like kind of like cheesiness, which normally wine or like whatever French white wine doesn't really have to that extent.

Zongjun · 31:35

It's it's just very extreme. Yeah, it's a totally different flavor universe. I, I have a hard time actually as you kind of sip them both in the same way, you know, the alcohol level's about the same and like getting out of the wine mindset is actually I find quite difficult.

Marcel · 31:52

Some of the aged sake are I would say I draw more comparison between them and like Sherry or Madera. Yeah, actually I have a sake fridge here. It's now becoming my matcha fridge. Cool. But it's cool because it's, it's a ventilated like very dry fridge.

Marcel · 32:11

So it's very practical for matcha as well. And obviously it's only used for sake because I have a collaboration with a friend of mine. He is, he used to live in in Japan. And he has actually a website which is specialized on aged sake. And yeah, he has really interesting also. There's also, I think some sake which is then aged in a sherry barrel for another year or two.

Marcel · 32:34

Obviously then it's not pure anymore, but also interesting and there's this like very distinctive curry note to a lot of those aged sake or like kind of really strong curry note which is interesting for many people and I tried the first time. Yeah, I can definitely see that.

Marcel · 32:51

Some odorousal oxidation like. It's very nice. Yeah, I mean, this is like, but I think for the matcha, it's really like for some people, like when I describe to people, for example, when they drink your gyokuro like in this, you know, if you do it like a bit of the gong fucha style way, you brew it in the very beginning with a very, very crazy ratio.

Marcel · 33:12

So basically you just cover the leaves and then you get these few drops out and then they enter your tongue, your mouth, and you get this like feeling of, oh, now it's going to get really bitter and you already like prepare for this bitterness and astringency. But then somehow there's just a bit bit of this astringency and everything becomes like kind of a mellow sweetness and there's like umami flavor.

Marcel · 33:36

I think it's like that's like the, for me, the what's so nice about the gyokuro and the sense that for matcha, obviously it's always a bit stronger and bolder. And you have to like embrace or you have to like, if you expect now there's like super strong bitterness.

Marcel · 33:54

Like it's just too strong for you, even if the bitterness never really comes because you know you're not used to this like intensity right in your mouth. Yeah, it's so intense. Yeah, but this is like the ending of the second part, like, you know, like we, we talked really about the details of the processing differences you you can have. Obviously I have to like speed up the part of it because you know, there's these like 5-6 dimensions, the dimensions and you can't really spend more than like a few minutes on each. But I think it's good for the beginning because just like a CHEAT SHEET you can take and

Marcel · 34:26

see, OK, how do they actually disclose what what this match? Is it actually stone milled or not then? Yeah. I mean, nowadays I, I go on websites and I see weird things. It's written like tana shaded and then there's a picture of like the how's it called?

Marcel · 34:44

I always forgot the name. Not tana shaded. That's something with jikagise, think I forgot the name now. So the normal shading, which they do. Yeah, exactly. And you see that they, they put a picture in their products, like it's a product picture.

Marcel · 35:00

You see the the, the bushes being shaded, but they write tana shading. And it's like these things happen now very often. It's a bit sad because, you know, Yeah. And it's also the reason I initially started to think about this matcha more and more because I think about a year ago I was already seeing the current matcha trend kicking off. And I'm drinking matcha since ten years or 12 years, but not as much as I do now.

Marcel · 35:32

And I was like, you know, sometimes with a few friends, I was ordering one parcel from a Marukyu Koyamaen from from OG directly when they they didn't have a webshop. You just write them e-mail and then you you order like 20 tins and then you pay the import tax and so on.

Marcel · 35:49

It's not a problem if you share it and then you have your yearly stock of matcha. You know, like I drinking maybe four or five cans of matcha a year. That's enough for me. You know, like I drink it mostly in the summer. Fun fact, I used to have also an online shop around 10 years ago with three other friends and was just a site, very small online shop.

Marcel · 36:08

And we asked Marukyu Koyamaen if we can sell their tea or their matcha that time, but they declined back then. Wow, OK. Because we were just a very small random online shop. But now because I'm doing a lot of exhibitions with Unearthed which have to do with chanoyu and like, you know, like chawans often have chawans on display or even chaire, I think they were more interested in in working with me now. So I'm like could become official reseller. Nice.

Zongjun · 36:37

Went to, I was in Sofia, Bulgaria, I think it was last summer and I was looking at the matcha scene on Google Maps and there was a place that specialized in matcha and they only sold Marukyu Koyamaen product. They were a wholesaler.

Zongjun · 36:51

It was a very interesting experience in the place that I would have never guessed telling us this guy was telling us all about the poetic names. He was like, sure. Like he's he's Bulgarian, fell into this matcha thing and was wholesaling and I thought, wow, Marukyu Koyamaen has quite the reach.

Marcel · 37:07

That's interesting. Maybe they've opened up a little bit since 10 years ago too. Yeah, I mean they also, you know, like all the Urasenke students all over the world, they I think they many of them order for the school like kind of a parcel every two months or something that's far.

Marcel · 37:26

That's like what I guess I mean, and I think in Munich it's it's like that they have this tea house here and our English garden are like Central Park basically. And they they meet up there regularly at practice and they always use Koyamaen matcha. Well, Despite that.

Marcel · 37:43

Question. Despite our issue with the poetic names of these traditional houses, one of my favorite matchas is from Marukyu Koyamaen. It's tenju. It's a very, very nice has this really interesting intense like fresh olive oil like spiciness to it and that flavor just disappeared the second day we opened that can. Honestly, I also realized that like a similar flavour, like especially when smelling a can, which I just opened because basically my first batch arrived like 5-6 weeks ago and I think they literally milled it a week before. And they, they have I think good shipping rates with DHL and I think like arrived within four

Marcel · 38:30

days in Munich, you know? Nice. Like. This matcha was literally like 7 days packed and milled and think for the European Union to have specific milling lines which only do that because of contamination and stuff. And then basically you, you have to order it and then it comes to you so fresh.

Ryan · 38:48

And I open two of the cans and to test it and write some notes and review, review them. And then I realized, wow, it's such an intense smell. Kind of like, yeah, I don't know what it is. It's like this kind of like maybe it's polyphenols or something like which are really like in the leaf when it's freshly ground and it's has this like olive oil flavor or smell. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ryan · 39:13

I love that. Pre degraded state because I think it just vanishes. It was pretty like weird how and we kept it in the fridge. Like literally 24 hours later gone it was. Crazy. It's a different tea. Yeah, it was a different tea.

Ryan · 39:29

It's a bit of a shame because it was like, what was it, 6? 70 bucks. 670 bucks. Yeah, it's probably something like yeah ¥8000 or ¥9000 or something like that. Yeah, crazy. Sad. Yeah, let's see. I mean, I have my, my, my fridge still have some stock from Marukyu Koyamaen.

Ryan · 39:52

And it's probably easier to buy matcha here than in OG or something, because in OG there's this limit now one one can per person. But I mean, once I'm done, I don't know, like I will for sure try to visit them when I'm in Uji, but like I don't know my next batch when I when I can get it, yeah. And about the tea from Nishio in Aichi prefecture people talk a lot about like generalizing like the taste of uji matcha or yame matcha.

Marcel · 40:22

Like Uji is famous for umami and green and verdant yame more nutty, creamy. Roasting. Automatically expressive, roasty. Toasty What? What is it like? How would you generalize the the thing you've had from ITI? Think in general because what's interesting is they do really long shading. So besides those hand picked qualities, I also have now one quality of a Okumidori matcha, which is machine harvested, but it's still 40 days shaded.

Marcel · 40:53

And yeah, and it comes with really, and it's harvested really, really late because Okumidori is a very late cultivar. You imagine 40 days of shading. In order to achieve those 40 days, you have to start shading very early, I think. And then you like prolong the entire process. So I think it's harvested only by end of May, but it's still the first harvest.

Marcel · 41:15

So it's interesting, you know, in some sense like it, it sure has an impact and on the the flavour and everything if you shade for a very, very long time. And they also do, I think mostly tana shading in Nishio. It's also interesting they don't use honzu, but they use tana shading, and tana shading has the advantage.

Marcel · 41:33

Of. Exactly. I think especially if you shade so long, you cannot even do it with like directly on the Bush because the Bush would overheat. And then I think it it doesn't maybe it only works for 20 days or something, but not for 40. And this Okumidori matcha, it's like the strongest and it's also quality, which I say it's like for daily use and for lattice even.

Marcel · 41:57

And we also starting to collaborate with a few coffee shops here in Munich with this matcha because it like I can offer it at a reasonable price also for them if they want to offer something a bit more special. And it also has the option then to be served as a Usucha or maybe as a Matcha Americano, because most of the qualities currently in the specialty coffee scene, kind of like the matchas they serve, they're not really suitable for anything like that in my opinion, unfortunately.

Marcel · 42:29

But this is kind of my bottom approach, like kind of like the the workshop is more kind of like, oh, educating and trying to show people are interested what's like matcha can be and what how unique matcha's high and matcha can be.

Marcel · 42:43

But also on the on the other level to offer this other matcha. And I think that this matcha, because Okumidori is very strong as we have is very late. It is bold and has like this umami and also like astringency and so on. But it's not super unique.

Marcel · 43:00

I would say it's a very balanced strong matcha, but it's not it doesn't have any extreme floral notes or something. And I think in general, maybe initial teas have less umami for sure, I feel, And I think it's hard to compare.

Marcel · 43:15

I would have to like drink them side by side. But maybe it's first from some perspective, they're a bit more boring. But I think sometimes that's exactly what you want, you know, in the sense of the high end matcha. Maybe it's boring.

Marcel · 43:28

Wouldn't expect that, you know, with 40 days of shading you still would not achieve very high umaminess. Like is it because of the fertilizer? Like do they how do they fertilize? So this is special about this format. It's completely pesticide free and organic fertilizers.

Ryan · 43:45

It's not organic as it is, but it's a very kind of low impact farming. And that's why I think it is that the umami. I think my assumption is always a lot of the umami comes from a certain type of fertilizer. You know, if it's like fish bone, ground up fish bones or some other like fertilizers. If you use organic fertilizer, which you make yourself, I think it's it's very hard to achieve this really, really strong umami. It's funny you say that because Sam and I were walking around Uji just randomly and we smelled what we were pretty sure was fertilizer and it just smelled like. Fish smells like a fish market.

Ryan · 44:25

It was so uncanned, not like a wet market that taste, the umaminess in the tea just for the moment was very unappetizing because you can feel like, oh wow, this is like literally pulling this up from all this fish poop and this flavor is getting transmitted into the tea.

Marcel · 44:45

It's a It's a weird moment. Yeah, yeah. I think it's also because if, if sometimes there's different kinds of umami, like there's more the fishy umami and then there's more the mushroomy umami and then maybe more the vegetable umami. And I feel like it has a lot to do with the fertilizer at the end.

Marcel · 45:03

Like it's really dependent on that. And obviously the cultivar has a bit of a change. But I think for these real umami bombs, it might not even be only the shading. I mean, this is interesting questions because you would think, OK, the amino acids, they're they're much more amino acids on the shaded tea because they're not getting converted and, and catechins and so on.

Zongjun · 45:24

And then but what type of amino acids you know, like is it really only umami or is it something? That's interesting. I think there's a like two dozen or so common ones that show up. Someone was telling us it was around 20, but about 50%. I think of most matchas L-theanine of the amino acid content.

Zongjun · 45:44

And then the rest is scattered. But it'd be really interesting to see the, I wonder if any farmers are doing that where you have the same tea, same process, same everything, just different fertilizer. I wonder. It's really unclear what's actually driving a lot of this flavor profile. Is it just like tons of synthetic nitrogen? Is it like obviously it's some combination, but like what is driving it more like the shading, the cultivar or the fertilizer?

Marcel · 46:10

It's like very unclear, at least to me. I mean, I'm also not sure because the yield, I mean it's also yields question. If you yield, if you want to have the same yield with the shading and you don't want us like you, we need that output, then I guess you need some kind of synthetic fertilizer because the, the lack of sun is just creating some stress on the plants and so on.

Marcel · 46:33

So the question is like almost like how can you actually shade so long and so on. I mean, I don't know the, the, the there's so many factors involved with this whole matcha process. It's kind of interesting. Yeah. That it's not that one-dimensional. There might be some research in Japanese just deep buried in some database and libraries, probably about that. It is interesting.

Marcel · 46:58

Yeah, I think that the those teas, I think they're really good for like, like also when you say you want a very like a good matcha, but something affordable, you want to drink every day and you also trust, trust the process and say, OK, you know, I'm not drinking something which has a lot of pesticides, a lot of like chemical fertilizer in it.

Marcel · 47:14

And and obviously I also need to meet the EU standard. So with this matcha, I'm I can can like rest assured. But then there are many matchas which I would like to offer, but I don't know if I could offer them, you know. So let's see, I mean, this trip, the upcoming trip to Japan, now I hope that I'll have a few interesting candidates come out of it. Do.

Zongjun · 47:36

You know the compliance burden for the EU certification because like I am at because I know in coffee, just like some small coffee producers cannot afford the complexities in the financial cost of the compliance proof of compliance.

Marcel · 47:51

For the organic. I think for organic is what I mostly heard but for but I don't IEU compliance seem to be like JAS is not does not mean it's EU compliant right? But I think it would probably be taken as kind of a sure like sure thing that everything which JAS should somehow be compliant.

Marcel · 48:14

And I think probably so I think as an importer, you're forced to do like checks also regularly do some random checks with your imports. And I think it's also what I'm going to do now. I think for example, like a company like Marukyu Koyamaen is so big.

Marcel · 48:28

They know they're what they're doing. If they make a specific plan for the European Union, they have the capability to do this. But like smaller farmers, they will not do their own testing if they don't have many customers in the European Union. So for that I have to then test at least every two years some of the batches and then make.

Marcel · 48:44

Sure that it moves to the importer. Exactly because I this is also what what I have to do now when I import a product, doesn't matter which tea, where it comes from, if I imported into the European Union, I have to put my labels on it. So I put additionally a label on it, which obviously says, yeah, I'm the importer and so on.

Marcel · 49:03

Because basically I'm the person who introduced it into the European Union. Yeah, that's my it's kind of my responsibility, but I think it's fine, you know, especially if you do B to B and sell to other like coffee shops and so on.

Marcel · 49:16

And this is like kind of produced a lot or consumed a lot, then I think it makes sense to for sure make sure that it's meeting all those requirements. So that's yeah. And then in the in the workshop, we're going to try also we have one final matcha, which this time was you probably also tried something like that before, like Asahi cultivar from Horii from Shirakawa this. Nice.

Marcel · 49:40

Yeah, so this I got that luckily not on his own website because it's always sold out so quickly. It's almost impossible to get anything on this website. And I got to recommend it. His matcha like a year ago from a contact of mine in Nagoya, a friend of mine, she runs a gallery there, but I never was able to contact him directly. So I just had to find some other online shops which have some of his stuff.

Marcel · 50:01

So I was lucky to get this for the workshop and it's really interesting because it's this tea is almost like like kind of like has some kind of egginess to it, like some kind of egg yolk custardy flavor, which is really crazy.

Marcel · 50:16

And also I prepare it obviously kind of as an in between usucha and koicha. So to get a lot of foam and like the intensity koicha wouldn't make sense in the setting because you cannot really, you know, serve it well unless you don't care about hygiene and stuff.

Marcel · 50:34

But I guess in order to serve it in two different cups, you need to like use a bit more water. But I like to use in a 1 to 15 or something, 111 gram to 15 mil. It's really interesting matcha. What did everyone think? How is it received? I think they really liked it, but if they compared it at the end in the in this questionnaire, I think it's not really standing out, but I think it's like has maybe like one or two people rated it like an A A9 instead of an 8 and the other like, you know, like it's like really maniculous, like small that they all like basically all the TSA lot. Maybe I should ask for more like

Marcel · 51:14

hard feedback. But I think most of the people really like most of the Machos, and I think that even the Marukyu Koyamaen blend was similarly rated to to the interesting. The preferences were didn't align with price and what the Japanese would consider quality for these German consumers.

Marcel · 51:35

Yeah. I mean, I think they really liked it, but I think that the the question is always would they integrate this into their own matcha drinking at home? I'm not sure. I think. And basically we enter the workshop, then we have a small part where we talk a bit about brewing matcha, also a bit about before we drink the Asahi matcha we talk a bit about how the matcha scene is evolving currently.

Marcel · 52:02

And this is a part which I still want to develop a bit further, but it just gives a bit of a yeah, like current status of the matcha scene and how matcha becomes this kind of like international beverage and how more and more like smaller farmers are also getting acknowledgement.

Marcel · 52:20

And that's why we also try this tea because he's like an example for that. And it's also kind of part of my mission to rather work with the farmers together directly and then disclose as much as possible about them. Like, yeah, or directly disclose who the farmer is ideally.

Ryan · 52:37

And that's like the approach I want to drive also for other businesses potentially, you know, like if you put a bit of a pressure on the market, potentially other people will also feel pressure to raise their quality or be more transparent. But I'm not sure I'm I'm a small player. Well, it's got to start somewhere. Like you have enough people showing up asking what the cultivar was or where it was grown. You know, it put it, I think it does put pressure like I don't know how else this will ever work if it's not bottom up because I no one at the business level or the higher levels of this industry have any incentive

Ryan · 53:12

to do anything but keep it mysterious, protecting their suppliers. It's kind of convenient that people don't ask a lot of these questions and I think it's it all starts at the grassroot level, I think for this type of specialty industry to develop. Yeah.

Marcel · 53:27

I mean, in the current, like I, I could compare it a bit to we're currently in the Dubai chocolate phase of matcha. I don't know, I don't know if you heard about Dubai chocolate, but it's just like chocolate filled with pistachios And the prices suddenly like from a normal chocolate bar for 2-3 euros of dollars went up to like 15 to 20.

Marcel · 53:49

And then you read the listed like 5% pistachio inside or maybe 8. And pistachio is an expensive ingredient. But like, I mean, basic math shows you that the markups must be crazy in this industry. And I think the same is is applies to matcha right now.

Marcel · 54:07

I think they're just, I mean, some qualities for sure, which have someone, I don't know who, like either a wholesaler in Japan or like mostly retailers in the West, they're marking up like, but beyond a normal margin. And that's like you can taste it.

Marcel · 54:23

I mean, yeah, you can see it everywhere. And some places have better things and other places have not so good things. I mean, it's a, it's a, it's a mixed bag at the end, yeah. Yeah, it's all about experience and the correct reference for consumer to to validate.

54:41

So it's a nice that you are offering this opportunity for people you know, Munich to really try and learn. Yeah, and I mean, every week there's a new matcha spot opening here in town. Wow, wow. Floating. Yeah, it's summer is coming, so I think it's really, yeah. I would like to make some research and go in there and ask the baristas like, oh, what kind of matcha is it? Like, you know, ask some basic questions and see how far I get. Just like, you know, I'm not very good at like mystery shopping, but like could be a cool. Yeah, you're like a secret customer. Exactly.

Marcel · 55:19

I do that too sometimes. Or maybe you can offer some sort of a consulting service to these cafe shops to. Exactly, that's that's my my idea also because doing a bit of B to B, I want to offer those coffee shops which work with me also kind of like a workshop format which is more specialized on the whole like.

Marcel · 55:39

Training of the baristas. Aside and and but still give them the basics, you know, like if they know there are these growing regions and we have this and not that because of XYZ or because we can yeah, like I mean there's different reasons you would need this kind of like this background knowledge. And I think it's not like it's not easily accessible anywhere, especially not for people who just started in a in a coffee shop who just started matcha 2-3 weeks ago, you know? Yeah.

Marcel · 56:08

It seems like in Germany, Aiya is kind of at the top of the funnel, like really dominates the game in Austria and Germany I've heard. Is that I think, is that what you see in in Munich too? I see some Aiya, but like I think that most of the places have some kind of Kagoshima matcha.

Marcel · 56:27

I think so many of them, I guess those ones who don't really disclose where the matcha comes from, probably like some white labeled Aiya matcha because I think Aiya also offers the like white labeling custom brand things.

Marcel · 56:41

But I think other ones probably have a more direct approach and try to find a supplier. There's a few brands coming up which also run their own coffee shops, but it at the end you have to see that this is something which is separate to the speciality coffee scene, kind of because it's much more kind of like punch drinks with a lot of fruit toppings and so on.

Marcel · 57:01

And I think that the other side of it is more the speciality coffee shops would offer a pure matcha latte. So these these kind of like separate entities, either you're specialized or matcha and then you do all kinds of interesting things. But maybe because there's more sugar involved, the quality of the matcha is not always so important. And then you have the other squats, which are more speciality coffee shops and they they have a more solid quality and average, I would say.

Marcel · 57:27

And they're also not offering all the the toppings because it doesn't match their workflow. You know, like it's even hard for them to offer much at all. So they use squeeze bottle style often. Well, the pre premiered syrup things. I mean, it's not it's, it's they, they pre prep it just I think that the same day and then they cool it. And I am something I want to do as a research to see like, you know, do this make some kind of like 1 to 10 like liquid and put it really at 4° in the fridge for like 4 hours and then test it versus a freshly made one and see what's the difference Because I'm not yet.

Marcel · 58:11

I didn't make made-up my mind about it yet. I've had some decent ones. I've never had anything profound that was like that, but I've had some stuff where I was actually kind of shocked kind, I hate it. I I didn't want to like it and I was like, it's. Not bad.

Marcel · 58:29

It's UN bad. I'm bad. I think it's you prevent a lot of mistakes like, you know, yes, you don't have clumps because you mix it once properly. You don't over steep because you never heat it up. But it also lacks some of the body and the power I feel because how they do it is they they add it into a cup, a preheated cup, and I just add 20 mils of this liquid and then never whisk it or anything. And then they just pour a bit of hot milk in it and try to mix it all.

Marcel · 58:58

And then they make their lots of that's my assumption. And it it's kind of a cold brew matcha topped up with hot milk. And then you never properly extracted the matcha in a sense of that you got all the, you know, like this one or two minutes whisking it, exposing it to like 7080° really extracts some other flavors, in my opinion, Yeah.

Ryan · 59:19

For sure. With that kind of usage, you'll probably want something that's like really bitter and a stranger to begin with. Prefer it to stand out. You know this preparation method instead of using some like less a stranger and more sweet matcha.

Marcel · 59:33

Yeah, and it's also a lot about ratios. I mean, I think that if I test random matchas like there's many things you could say can go wrong, you know? Like too much milk is one of the problems. It tastes Milky and faintly like matcha.

Ryan · 59:48

It's a very common problem. I've been developing this thought recently. I haven't really expressed it to anyone yet, but curious to hear what you guys is that. Everyone keeps talking about this bitterness and the stringency needing to stand up to milk, but I actually think that that might be the wrong framework.

Ryan · 1:00:03

Was reading some online discourse and everyone saying that culinary grade really should be what's used in these lattes and I bought a bunch of culinary grade matcha recently and some from a premium culinary grade from a very well known vendor that we all heard of and it was decently expensive and I tasted it. I tried it in a latte, there was nothing. There was no taste.

Ryan · 1:00:24

It was supposedly from spring harvest, I think it was from some OG producer, but it like objectively tasted disgusting. And like, I've even experimented and I hesitate to say this here, but like using the Reno cultivar and seeing what that tastes like in I'm sorry, it tastes good. There's no bitterness and it tastes good. There's like a lot of intensity and it just expresses different flavors.

Ryan · 1:00:48

And I find a lot of this very bitter and astringent stuff very empty. And that really, I think we need to shift the discussion about intensity, because you don't just want this like bitter, astringent nothing pale green, boring matcha stuff. Exactly.

Marcel · 1:01:07

I think that like you can see it also now a lot like if you look at the successful matcha places in in the US, like recently, because I do have some research about it, because I also want to open like maybe a slow bar here at some point.

Marcel · 1:01:21

And the whole topic of like ratios and like what type of drinks you offer and how much gram of matcha you put in. And if you look at something like Kettl or you're now 12 matcha in New York, which is open. And I think it's just much nicer if you're using a decent quality matcha. Obviously you have to have a sweet spot quality to offer it for a reasonable price, otherwise your costs will explode as a as a matcha bar.

Marcel · 1:01:46

But either making a 2G cortado, that's now my recipe, I would say, which I like to do when I'm also testing matchas. It's like 2G and then either it's whisked or it's like just you make a paste out of it and then you add 80 to 90 mil of milk foam, which is probably less than 70 grams of milk to it. And then and then that's really just a small matcha latte. Or you go and make a iced matcha latte with 4G of matcha or like even more, but I think 4G of matcha. And then with all the water and milk diluting the flavor, I think you need really 3 to 4G for like this. This latte, you know, like a latte is not a cappuccino. A latte is a big mark of milk

Ryan · 1:02:35

with something inside. Yeah, no, I totally agree. It's also a big ratio problem. And I think it's it's a cost thing, you know, like when you say you use more, you use 1g more for the drink and you use a better matcha, it means that the price will double or triple very quickly because you use a better matcha. And I think that's what's the only problem I would say. Definitely will come down to price too. Although the people screaming at each other online telling all the matcha latte people to drink this culinary grade stuff like they should like take a sip of some of their own medicine. It doesn't taste good like even

Ryan · 1:03:16

in a latte format. And I also feel like especially this because everybody says, yeah, you don't need a stone ground matcha for a matcha latte, but you can just taste it like this, like powderiness of the ballmilled matcha.

Ryan · 1:03:30

Not every ball milk matcha is the same powderiness, but I feel like now I tested a few samples and I, I was drinking the pure matcha and afterwards just like that's literally 2 minutes later, I was drinking a latte with it because I just tested and make a bigger batch and, and drink a pure as well as a latte.

Ryan · 1:03:48

And I think I can taste the graininess as as like exactly the same way through the milk And it's really weird. Like, you know, once it's grainy, it's grainy in milk. It doesn't really work so well. No, I've noticed that too and doing especially back-to-back ishi-usu and ball mill comparison. That contrast is way more apparent when you have them side by side.

Marcel · 1:04:11

Yeah, but that's what I'm also introducing in this workshop. At the end we do this practice session and everybody gets to try this. Like I call it like sweet spot quality, which is our Okumidori matcha, which is like I want to find more of those for also offering into coffee shops in a sense that it is affordable for daily drinking.

Marcel · 1:04:30

And you can drink it pure, but you can make a latte with it and you can make a like maybe you don't make a koicha obviously with it, but you make like a kind of a normal usucha and it tastes good and you make a matcha Americano with it and dilute it with a bit more water and it also tastes good.

Marcel · 1:04:44

So these are the kind of qualities which are still stone milled and so on that kind of like not as much on the market I think. Absolutely, I think that sweet spot is exactly what everyone's looking for. Harder and harder to find, but that's awesome though.

Marcel · 1:05:00

I need to try this I'm do you ship to France? Yeah, I ship. I ship worldwide, basically. I mean, my new webshop, I still have to put all the shipping rates on, but like the US and Canada and the European Union are on it now, even though the USI don't know these days.

Zongjun · 1:05:17

It's a bit difficult there. So Marc-Alexandre, moving forward, what's your future plan for your work and for matcha too? I mean, I just started with Matcha and I will see what the the next month spring, because you never know with the current situation, it's not so easy. But I'm still focusing on my core business, which is my kind of arts and crafts gallery and selling tea Ware and ceramics. But I want to integrate it much more with the application of tea in general and also with Matcha and build this space as a space where you can experience high end craft and arts, but also crafted teas and crafted matcha.

Marcel · 1:05:56

And yeah, try to make a coherent experience out of it and potentially open up a small slow bar here which like integrates the interesting, like what's a glassware from Japan or also Chinese porcelain or Chinese tea Ware into a concept of a bar where you bring tea closer to people.

Marcel · 1:06:19

Not only matcha, but matcha obviously is like an entry entry point now for many people. Sounds almost like a kissaten style with the collection of all these things. And it's slow. Yeah, exactly. I mean, that's the idea. It should be very individual, like unique pieces. We'll see what we can use on the bar. Obviously like there's a limit to kind of like risk involved, but it is nice to experience something from the, the, the product you drink to the product you hold and then be able to after it.

Marcel · 1:06:52

I also say, oh, I want to take that home because it's such a nice experience and I got so close to it. And it has a lot to do with the Japanese tea ceremony as well. I think because of the Japanese tea ceremony, it's all about like for me, it's like creating also in a Chinese tea ceremony, creating like the space for people to be very receptive about the things they hold in their hand and, and kind of like get intimate with those small things in the tea room.

Marcel · 1:07:23

And, and the theanine obviously helps with it. But yeah, I think it's it's interesting what you what kind of mood you can create when you host a tea gathering or something. That's cool, maybe you can even incorporate some musics in the future.

Ryan · 1:07:37

Yeah, that's also on my list. Nice. Yeah, it's awesome, super cool. And then it's more participatory, you know, it's not something that's behind glass or this ambiguous thing. It's a much more one-on-one human connection kind of way to approach it.

Marcel · 1:07:55

Yeah, it shouldn't be too formal. It should be still having kind of a bit of this casual vibe, like in a high end bar where you drink alcoholic drinks, but kind of like you can talk to the barkeeper, you can ask about the products, you can ask about their opinion.

Marcel · 1:08:09

And yeah, this is definitely my vision. Yeah. I mean, obviously I'm only one person here running this business, so I have to see how far I can get. Although, all right, it has to start somewhere. Yeah, best of luck. Good luck. Yeah, it sounds awesome.

Ryan · 1:08:25

Thank you so much. Yeah. So thanks so much for coming on. I think that's all we have time for, but if you enjoyed this podcast, please consider sharing it with friend and we'll see you on the next one. See you in the future. Thank you.

Ryan · 1:08:37

Bye.