Interview with Soy Té, Carolina

Ryan · 0:00

Hello and welcome to the Specialty Matcha Podcast. My name is Ryan. This is Zongjun Li, who also goes by Sam. Hello. Hello. And we're the cofounders of Sanko Matcha Products. Yeah, we launched a podcast to discuss our learning journey, Matcha, share startup stories and interview experts. And today we have Carolina from Soite joining us. Welcome, Carolina.

Carolina · 0:19

Welcome. Thank you so much for having me. Awesome. Likewise. So can you share a little bit about your personal and your professional background before we jump into this episode? So I found that so it. Back in 2000 and. 12 In Mexico it is very, very popular, or it was very popular.

Carolina · 0:38

It's becoming less popular. These fruit teas, maybe you're familiar with them, The fruit tisanes. Yeah, OK. Yeah. And I worked for the Mexican government before. So I've been around Mexico traveling because I was convinced that I was going to be part of the change to make Mexico's infrastructure better. So I will just travel everywhere. And what's fortunate enough to meet a lot of fruit producers that most of the fruit would go to waste. So one of the interesting things, it's also, I met this guy who was very, very good at dehydrating the fruit. Interesting.

Carolina · 1:19

Yeah, yeah, it was very, very cool. So that guy helped me dry a lot of fruit. And we started making the fruit tisanes back in 2012. And that's how so it started, actually, not with tea, but with fruit tisanes. And I was very proud to be one of the only brands that didn't have hibiscus as a base because most brands in Mexico only have hibiscus.

Carolina · 1:42

And I love hibiscus. There's even a hashtag in Mexico that is like team Jamaica. I'm totally team Jamaica or team hibiscus. But if I'm going to drink hibiscus water or like the refreshing thing that you drink after you go to have tacos or something, I want my hibiscus.

Carolina · 1:58

Not like other flavors. And these would be like fruity but hibiscus because this German company has become very popular selling their blends in Mexican like Germany doesn't even have fruit. How come Germany is the most popular country to make fruit teas or fruit tisanes if they don't even have fruit? And the way is that they put a lot of flavoring and hibiscus. So it's apple with some sort of flavoring and hibiscus. And that's what became very, very popular in Mexico. And we started sourcing from different producers like jackfruit and star fruit and other very tropical fruits to make our blends.

Ryan · 2:40

And that's how so it started through Fruit Tisanes. That's awesome and all using all local products. Yes. A very uncommon story for a tea business, I think. Yeah. All our fruit is local and all our tisane names are from a county or a municipality that has that fruit.

Carolina · 3:02

For example, one of our most most common or popular tisanes is Hokotepek, which means in the local language the place where the sour fruit grows. And obviously that's our Berry mix. Cool. So it's even single origin like that's.

Ryan · 3:20

Kind of kind of for some fruits, because some are blends that have the main fruit and other ingredients other fruits, but yeah. That's cool. How did the company evolve into matcha and getting into the specialty matcha realm? Yeah, that was back in 2012.

Carolina · 3:40

And then we started importing tea from tea companies in the US like i.e., TITIITI&Q, Trade and just other bigger companies. So we were basically intermediaries. And these we started doing because our customers started asking like, hey, can I actually buy other teas from you?

Carolina · 4:02

And I'm like, what do you mean like other teas, right. And they're like, well, like English breakfast and I'm like, I have no idea what you're talking about because I had zero knowledge about tea. So I started sourcing these other teas and then I was like, I have no idea what what I'm doing. So I'm going to learn about tea.

Carolina · 4:21

So I took these classes with the Specialty Tea Institute and I became a whatever master tea, which doesn't mean anything. And I don't believe that I'm a master tea certified, but I, I became level 4, which at the time was the highest level possible that they have. And I'm like, yeah, I still feel that I don't know anything. I took the, the certification and I continued sourcing teas from them.

Carolina · 4:48

And then in 2018, two, 1017, sorry, 2017, I had the opportunity to go to China to visit the tea plantations. And that changed all my perspective completely. So it actually took me 5 years before I could go to origin and decide that I didn't know anything and had to obviously learn Chinese, although I never became fluent, but I learned all the terminology because I couldn't pronounce any of the Chinese tea names and now I I'm more familiar with that.

Ryan · 5:22

So that really helped. And we started focusing more on the Chinese way of making tea, like gongfu style, and I became very passionate about rock teas and Phoenix oolongs. Very nice. Where in China did you visit? Obviously Yunnan places where? Well, near Long Jing and obviously Long Jing and Hangzhou.

Ryan · 5:46

Yeah, like basically all the tea area in Anhui. Big Tea tour. I guess this is a lot of different origins. I got so much this. So I visited. China like 7 times in three years before they closed their border. Wow, that's. Cool.

Ryan · 6:02

Yeah, I I only wanted to be in China. I was like so focused and obsessed with learning everything I could about Chinese tea. OK, Yeah, we have. We share a very similar path. Our tea obsession started with gongfu cha and then kind of evolved into Japanese tea, into matcha.

Carolina · 6:20

So then, so there's a tisane phase, a gongfu cha phase, and then how did that evolve into matcha? And then in 2020, because in 2019, we actually organized a trip with our customers to go to China. So I took some customers and we went around visiting some tea farmers and tea plantations. It was very cool.

Carolina · 6:41

And we were going to do another one in 2020 with this girl from a company called Tiwala, her Mandarin. Is very. Good. Yeah, her Mandarin is very good. So I would bring the customers and she would bring the translation, which was very helpful. I'm useful.

Ryan · 7:01

So we were very excited, excited about about the 2020 tea tour. It was all set up and then COVID happened, so everything got cancelled. And I'm like, I still need to keep learning about tea. So I basically stalked Shunan until finally I was able to get an appointment with her because I knew that she was the tea guru or the Chinese tea goddess in in the US at least. And this is the founder of TeaDrunk, right? Yes, the founder of TeaDrunk and Shunan was like, oh, sure, I will help you.

Carolina · 7:37

And she started questioning me like if I had to pass a final Test and like, I don't know anything about what you're talking about. So yeah, I will learn from you. So yeah, we started these really cool relationship and she agreed that she was going to come to La Caya to teach her Master class after COVID happened. And during that time I was learning more about Chinese tea. She introduced me to Wuyi.

Ryan · 8:06

OK. From Wuyi. From Wuyi, Yeah. OK. And that's how. I became also interested in matcha and Japanese. Teas. OK, wow, interesting story. It's very cool. How have you seen like the matcha scene in Mexico evolve over the past couple years? Now it's a mess.

Carolina · 8:26

I think it's a mess everywhere, not just in Mexico. Yeah, it's a mess everywhere. Yeah, because it it became a thing especially for the fitness snobbish people, that they only drink matcha because it's going to change their lives somehow.

Carolina · 8:46

I mean, I think matcha is a really good drink that if you're very consistent and only drink it by itself without adding anything, it can give you health benefits. But they haven't been completely proven right. So I think the main reason why you should drink matcha is not because it's going to prevent you from having cancer.

Carolina · 9:06

Like that has. Not been proven. So right now there are like four different kind of people that I have identified that wanna drink matcha. The fitness people that only drink matcha because it's the thing to drink now. Like they were drinking ashwagandha 2 years ago and now it's like matcha.

Carolina · 9:27

And whenever something new comes along they are gonna switch. Maybe then there's a people who are interested in drinking matcha because it looks good on social media and they want to be part of that trend of making their matcha and commenting about how cool it is to drink matcha.

Carolina · 9:49

Then three, the ones that don't really care about how it tastes. As long as it's sweet, they will like it. OK. And I think the third group is the most abundant group of all because they just buy whatever green powder available, the cheapest, the better.

Carolina · 10:10

And the fourth group, which is the connoisseur or the more curious matcha drinkers, which I think will help the other three, because the fourth group is the one that will continue drinking matcha and will continue learning more about matcha in the real, in the real Japanese way.

Carolina · 10:31

So in my perspective, those are like the four groups that are consuming matcha in Mexico. Did these groups exist like five years ago or do you think it's like a more recent like evolution? I think it's a more recent evolution for sure. Before I would say that there were only two groups, like the one that drinks matcha in any presentation as long as it's sweetened and doesn't taste like matcha, and then the fitness group.

Carolina · 11:01

OK, interesting. How much conversion have you experienced from the other groups into, you know, the corner store group that you described at the end? A lot, but it was actually very, very surprising because I wanted to achieve the same thing with Tasty and I tried, we even did these program, like a subscription program where we would give a class with Shunan also.

Carolina · 11:26

And it was very interesting. But people were not buying the tea during COVID. We got a larger group. There were like 65 people that joined the the subscription and it was pretty good during COVID. But then people returned to their normal lives and they forgot completely about Chinese tea and they're not buying any Chinese tea because during COVID, the Chinese tea sales went up for us at least.

Carolina · 11:55

And in September 2021 that things went basically back to normal. Hasty Sense went down so bad. And it's not happening that with matcha because the connoisseur group is wanting to do more more and more and more things with matcha and every matcha tasting that we open gets sold out in 2 days or less. Wow.

Ryan · 12:19

Interesting. That's really interesting actually. I guess Kung Fu Cha is very different because it's not something you can just order to go easily and it's like a bigger commitment time wise because you need like 1/2 hour 45 minutes to have a session where matcha is a little more adaptive to like coffee culture kind.

Carolina · 12:39

Of and you know what the main thing we love milk in Mexico or fake milk, doesn't matter almond milk or cow milk, but we love milk. We are culture that whatever you give us with milk will thrive. So matcha has the advantage.

Carolina · 12:57

That you can mix it with milk. Yeah. So you can either make it for a cappuccino or anything latte, and the possibility that matcha or the option that matcha gives you of mixing it with milk is just something that Kung Fu tea cannot give you. That's a that's a great point.

Carolina · 13:19

Never thought about that, but that makes sense. What's the consumption percentage between pure matcha drinkers and matcha with milk right now based on what you have seen? I think it's about the same as a specialty coffee store. I was talking to a friend because before I work for the Mexican government, I was trained as a barista when I was 14 years old.

Carolina · 13:42

So I've met this guy since I was 14. Now I'm 37. So I've met him basically most of my life. So I was talking to him and he was like, I cannot make people drink matcha because he's buying matcha also from Uji, the Suji Suji blend from Ooika.

Carolina · 13:59

He was telling me that it's it's the same for espresso drinkers because they are one of the best coffee shops in Guadalajara, and they sell only two espresso a day. Only two. Wow. Yeah. And for a specialty coffee, that's like, really, if you are selling only two espresso a day, nobody else has a chance, right, of making like an espresso sale.

Carolina · 14:25

And for matcha is basically the same thing. Everyone wants lattes. And also because we are addicted to lemonade, one of the most common ways to drink matcha in Mexico is matcha lemonade. Interesting. Yeah, matcha lemonade and matcha latte.

Carolina · 14:41

But pure matcha, I would say that it's less than 1%. He's he's he's serving Ooika's blend mostly in a latte then and. That's what's only lattes. Only lattes and lemonade. Lattes and lemonade. Interesting. And the lemonade is sweetened too. Everything is sweetened.

Carolina · 15:00

The lattes are not sweetened. However, all the fitness group that says that it's very fit always ask for their matcha lattes with monk fruit, which I think is one of the most horrific things that you can do to matcha have monk fruit because it's not pure monk fruit.

Carolina · 15:18

If you were going to add pure monk fruit, I would be fine with it. But every monk fruit that you can buy that you can find in the market has erythritol, which in my opinion is one of the worst inventions that we've made as humanity. So you add your very expensive matcha with monk fruit and then agave 0 because obviously we are in the land of tequila, so we make every product that can be derived from agave. So we obviously make agave 0 and it's one of the most popular sweeteners in Guadalajara.

Carolina · 15:53

So they add monk fruit with erythritol, agave 0 and the very expensive matcha and milk. Is this like half of the sales of like specialty coffee places or is it what would you say the balance is as it compared to coffee? Yeah, this guy Pedro was reading me his sales and it was about 60% now, much to drink even more.

Carolina · 16:19

More than coffee. Wow. Wow. That's crazy. Wow. Interesting. No. Wonder we have a shortage, right? Yeah. And I was just sitting there because sometimes I just want to experience my customers. Sales by. Like see what they're doing with the matcha.

Carolina · 16:38

And. I would just be see that they're at the counter and people will just come in one after another and after another. Like matcha latte. They matcha latte, They matcha latte. They obviously with their variation, like matcha latte.

Carolina · 16:49

They with almond milk, with agave syrup with monk fruit. They're like sure with their coffee, with their coffee, just coffee and milk. It just give me a nice latte and then they don't add agave syrup or it's just yeah, lucky.

Ryan · 17:06

So I don't know why matcha is being treated that way. Interesting. Very weird phenomenon, but I guess it's encouraging. I don't know people like it, but their tastes might evolve too, especially as more optionality enters the markets. Maybe new origins, that type of thing. Yeah.

Ryan · 17:24

So you you were in Japan recently, I believe, part of the tour with Marc. So what was your experience like in Japan meeting tea farmers and kind of interacting with that whole group? It was very good. I really liked going with Marc because I basically begged Marc to organize a trip I started. You're the impetus.

Carolina · 17:45

I started bouldering came last April, So in April 2024, as soon as I could travel because I was pregnant at the time. And as soon as my doctor cleared me, like after the whatever 7th week or whatever, I went to Ooika. I like Marc, we need to organize this tea trip to Japan, to Uji because I want to know all of your farmers and you're like, yes, let's do that.

Carolina · 18:14

So he got very excited and I was very impressed that all the farmers really respect Marc and they allowed us to harvest some of their most precious cultivars. For example, we went with Yamasaki San that in my opinion, he has one of the best Uji Hikari that I've tried.

Carolina · 18:33

And he allowed us to harvest the Asahi cultivar for two hours, which is unprecedented because usually farmers just treat you as a tourist and they let you play with whatever leftovers they have. But the farmers in Japan, because they respect Marc, they even treat us like that.

Carolina · 18:53

They really treat us like part of their community and allowed us to harvest the leaves, their most precious leaves. So that was very, very different from what I've experienced both in Taiwan and in China because I've always been treated as a tourist, like, oh, yeah, you want to play with the tea leaves, go play with the tea leaves.

Carolina · 19:15

And, you know, just that very internal experience. But yeah, I was, it was very interesting to see that process because also they allowed us to go into their factories and all the confidential information that usually nobody wants to share with a group of foreigners.

Carolina · 19:30

They were just very kind to allow us into their facilities and really show us around. So it was very, very fulfilling for me. What were some of the biggest, like, takeaways from like direct learnings? I'll say like because we can all learn about things in theory, but then when you go see it, smell it, touch it, hear it, talk to people, it becomes real in a different way.

Carolina · 19:54

Kind of seen how the because it was mid season which was very interesting to see how old the machines were operating because I've never seen how the steaming process worked. I've seen it in videos, but it's very different to see it in real life, so I was very impressed by seeing how the processing of matcha really worked. They allowed us to be there when they were making their harvest, so I think that was one of the main takeaways, just being able to experience the full harvest process and making matcha. Are you planning to source tea yourself in the future or have you tried?

Carolina · 20:39

We are, we are sourcing because I mean, Ooika's tea is amazing. But Mexico is not the US and cannot afford to pay the prices that Marc has. And some customers will continue buying and I think we will continue growing on that sector.

Carolina · 20:58

But the market as a whole wants good matcha, but they cannot afford those prices. So we are now my husband and me, who's my partner. And he had been a silent partner for the longest time, but he has now decided to become involved in the business. He's very good at languages.

Carolina · 21:17

He's American, but he's Spanish is perfect. Like you cannot hear an accent on his Spanish. So he's speaking all Japanese very quickly, which I'm very jealous of. Wow. That's cool. Yeah. And we have the same teacher and he has been helping us to find new suppliers and he helped us find find sorry, Furuichi-san in Kagoshima. We went to visit him also when we were traveling to Japan. So we went to his factory and we went to the tea plantations. We saw him blending the different tencha cultivars. So it was very exciting as well.

Carolina · 21:54

That's a more affordable, it's not affordable like affordable, affordable, affordable, but more affordable than Ooika. So for some of our customers that want to have quality in their matcha, I think it's a good option. How was your experience in Kagoshima versus?

Carolina · 22:11

Others great. I wanted to rent a car because I usually rent a car wherever I go. I thought that it was going to be the same as driving in Taiwan, which I really liked, but my driver's license, because you're going to really drive in Japan with your US driver's license or your Mexican driver's license.

Carolina · 22:32

So I applied for another driver's license and allow me to drive in Japan, and it didn't arrive on time, so I couldn't drive. Yeah. So we had to just hire a driver. And I didn't realize how big of a prefecture Kagoshima was. So we spent a lot of time in the car just driving around and seeing the different tea plantations. We went to the top of mouth on Odaka, which it's possibly one of the most beautiful sceneries I've experienced in that area. But yeah, Kagoshima's natural beauty is amazing. And also the onsen that we had the opportunity to go to some onsen was great.

Ryan · 23:12

And the food, yeah, yeah. So Kagoshima was a great prefecture, at least for me too. What was sourcing tea like in Kagoshima? Yeah, especially compared to like Uji, Yame and like the more traditional places you visited. It was remote because from one place to another it'll be like an hour and a half drive. So it was just very.

Carolina · 23:35

Very remote to be travelling from one place to another because Furuichi-san's like, Oh yeah, let's go to the factory and like, yeah, let's go to the factory. So we were at his main shop and we started driving and like, where is the factory? Is it still in Kagoshima?

Carolina · 23:51

And yeah, we drove like for an hour and a half and yeah, I was like, wow, I don't know, just all the automatic harvesters like those red giant. Yeah, it. Was like tractor things. Yeah, just with one person and that giant tractor just going through the tea plantations was also very cool because it was also mid season, so it was perfect to travel during that time in May where all the harvesting was happening. And they were also explaining to us, at least in Furuichi-san's factory, that before 2023 main product that they were making was sencha and now they are switching. Yeah, they were.

Carolina · 24:38

They were switching to tencha because the demand is just so high. And the problem now is not that much that they cannot produce enough tencha because they have the capacity just to switch from sencha to tencha, but it's that they don't have enough mills, so it's very slow to receive.

Zongjun · 24:57

We've heard that's a big problem too in a lot of other areas. It's a Milling is a pretty big bottleneck for a lot of people. Which is good news for us. Yeah. So it's one of the things we're working on is like a countertop matcha mill. Yeah, yeah.

Carolina · 25:11

Hopefully it will come soon. It's coming. It's coming, it's coming. Yeah, because most buffets where we sell much, I would definitely switch to Henshaw and because yeah, many places in Mexico, not many places with like 12 places so far, but the mill that Marc sells, the one that Yoshita.

Carolina · 25:31

The hand mill, yeah. And grinder. But you cannot. Really do anything with that on your business it was. Impossible. Unless your arm is strong enough so you can keep turning and turning and turning in a very steady way, there is no way that you will be able to make a matcha from that.

Zongjun · 25:49

Yeah, I know. Yeah. It's yeah, it's too, it's too slow and it's just, it's, it's a good demo, but beyond, beyond the demo, it's not that practical. But we've that we spent the last two years basically studying the physics of the commercial ishi-usu. And we're like, OK, how do we shrink this? So we're using like decently sized mill stones, like 11 centimeter diameter, but we held them up to heat sinks because like Marc's, like commercial mill stones, there's so much granite that kind of acts as a natural heat sink so it doesn't build up heat and, you know, burn the matcha. So we're kind of doing that, but

Zongjun · 26:27

using technology to remove the heat and a bunch of other. Things. So when are they coming? We're launching a beta program in September and then we'll deliver the first batch early next year. So the the podcast is because like there's a lot of waiting and product development. So we're like, oh, we should like share some macho knowledge and we can learn from people like you. It's.

Zongjun · 26:48

Going to be the particle size. Oh, we already analyzed it. So the mean particle size is. Actually, we referenced it against two ishi-usu benchmarks. We're actually below the particle size, so 1 is one sample we sent is like 4.9 microns on average.

Zongjun · 27:04

Wow 4.9. Yeah. And another one was about 5, yeah. Wow. And then we also measured the shape of the particles and we reached a very similar level of how jagged the shapes are. Suddenly like broken then around. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So.

Zongjun · 27:22

And we're about parody with ishi-usu. So it's we're, we're super. Happy. We are well, I guess the only shortcoming compared to like very high quality traditional ishi-usu matcha is that we have a little bit of higher portion of more coarser particles. So the last sip experiences can still feel a little bit graininess.

Zongjun · 27:46

Like what you would feel in the ball mill? Yeah, exactly. And actually we think that the ball milled matcha, we're a little bit better than a ball milled matcha and we're about as good as an average quality Ishi Usu, especially these days where it feels like they're running them very fast. Like sometimes you can.

Zongjun · 28:06

Yeah, yeah, we're definitely not at the quality of like, you know, Marukyu Koyamaen's highest end product. It's like silky to the last drop, but we haven't reached that yet. But we're, we're, we're pretty competitive, we think. Great.

Carolina · 28:18

Yeah. Ah, and if you want matcha gossip 2 weeks ago, you want matcha gossip or not about what's happening in the scene in Mexico because. Right now it's like the gold. Rush, everyone is selling matcha, everyone, right? So two weeks ago this guy comes and he's like, I'm selling the best matcha from Uji at $45.00 a kilogram. I'm like, no, this cannot be Uji matcha. And also like the label says, Uji matcha and everything, right? So he gives us the Uji matcha.

Carolina · 28:53

And as soon as we do the sampling, see, can you guess what this orange spot is? Can you see it? Yeah, like a hint of orange color in the center. See. It too weird. OK. So what do you think it is? Is this like powdered with a bunch of chlorophyll or something? Or is it like oxidized?

Carolina · 29:17

Too. That's your last guess. Yeah, it's the best. What is that? Coloring. Food coloring. Food coloring food. Coloring, yeah. So the way that food coloring works or green coloring works is that it's orange and when it touches water it becomes green.

Carolina · 29:34

It's adulterated. They literally are putting food coloring. It's not even like adding chlorophyll, it's adding food coloring. Yeah, because with chlorophyll you don't have to declare it, because tea has chlorophyll. This is worth buying.

Carolina · 29:48

This is my thought process, right? If this was a work like a Chinese matcha, Chinese really know how to do very good imitations. So it's not a Chinese matcha because it will be very well done that you will not be able to see the added product.

Carolina · 30:05

It's not Japanese because Japanese would declare that it has green color added. So this is something that a salesperson in Mexico decided to. Add. This is my guess. This is my They saw that it was not selling because it was not as green as other matches, so they just added the coloring without really understanding how to add food coloring and it was just too much coloring because that amount of coloring is above what the Mexican norm. Allows you to add.

Carolina · 30:44

Wow. Because I took it to my quality control lab, and as soon as I show them to them, they're like, that has too much food coloring or like food coloring, like, yeah. And as soon as we added that to water, it was just like intensely green.

Carolina · 31:00

Wow, that's very disturbing. Yeah. So in like bad news of what's happening with matcha, like everyone is selling Uji matcha for very low prices. And obviously the only way you can do that and convince the consumers that it's real Uji matcha, it's like if you add food coloring. Wow.

Carolina · 31:17

That's crazy. The new low we we heard some people like milling cheap gyokuro or sencha and labeling it as matcha chlorophyll. But this is a new level. And in top of that, they still call it ceremonial matcha. Wow yeah that is crazy at $45.00 a kilo. Like what base material are they buying? I have no idea also because obviously my video, because I made it into a video because I was very upset because it's one of the most recognized companies in Mexico. So I was very upset that they're doing this and that they are fooling consumers.

Carolina · 31:54

So I made a video not saying their name because that would be crass. And if I would want to report them, I would go directly to the authorities. I'm still considering doing that because it's a fraud, right? Like it's food. Fraud.

Carolina · 32:09

So the video went viral and they called me and. They're like, why are you? Doing this video and like why are you giving me samples with food coloring? If you are not giving me samples with food coloring, there will be no reason for me to denounce you this way.

Ryan · 32:23

I'm not even saying that it's you. Like nobody will even know that it's you, only that consumers should be aware that there's someone out there giving a bunch a bunch of samples fooling people. That's interesting because I, I used to do a lot of product development in, in Mexico with Mexican companies mostly in like the, both the savory and the sweet space.

Ryan · 32:45

And one thing I remember is that the regulations in Mexico around food and food labeling are super strict. And actually they're a lot more strict than in the US. Like, like, it feels like they would get fined or like, really get in a lot of trouble by the Mexican government for doing this level of like food adulteration.

Carolina · 33:05

Yeah, you would hope. And that's why I'm considering whether I should report them or not, because it's not declared and because nobody really knows enough about matcha to understand whether it's real or not. And because real matcha is so green, like, it's also done with enough knowledge of the market to be able to do that kind of fraud. So I think they did it in a very clever way. Yeah, but it's really a veering consumer perception in the wrong way.

Ryan · 33:39

Yeah. It's not that even safe. Like orange? It's new next level. Next level. I wouldn't. I didn't think I would hear about something like that bad. You never stop surprising yourself. How? About on the high end in Mexico in general, like with other specialty vendors, like do you see a lot of people focusing on like if we swing, like if that's the worst, what's like the landscape of the best look like and how has that evolved? There are now many companies that are offering more matcha origins.

Carolina · 34:13

OK which is interesting. Kettle is also around now. Oh, I saw that they were working with some chefs and stuff. I don't know if they've expanded more. OK. Yeah. So there's this distributor called Fena Partamento and they ventured with them and now they are distributing their matcha through them, which I think it's good that.

Carolina · 34:33

There's. More options available. Other than that most of the matchas that are available are like grade 3 which is fine. They still call it ceremonial matcha because we also have it, like we started purchasing matcha from Maruyama, which is like one of those very large companies in Japan that classifieds A matcha, like grade one, grade two, grade three, grade four, grade 5.

Carolina · 34:56

And the grade 3 is good enough for lattice because the intent of that matcha since the beginning was to mix it with milk. Yeah, if you drink it by itself, it's going to taste horrible. I like very very. Astringent, but with milk it's good enough and for some consumers that want to offer matcha in their coffee shops and cannot afford to pay a premium, I think it's a good price, especially because matcha prices went up so much.

Ryan · 35:28

Yeah, that makes sense because this this shortage in the prices are crazy from everything that we've been hearing. It really makes you wonder how these like like especially the small businesses that have built their brands on a really high end product that's just matcha Like if they don't sell loose leaf tea, if they don't sell anything else and it's just this high end stuff, like a lot of these people's prices just doubled. And it's like it's terrible sort of because it's those much of founders that helped create this global demand, which has led to this shortage.

Ryan · 36:01

So it's like they were participating in their own downfall. Like hopefully they stay in business, but for sure it's a really difficult time to just focus on that aspect of T. You know, people are suffering from their own success. Yeah.

Carolina · 36:17

Which is kind of sad. Yes. What's your take in all of this and and have you experienced this shortage in any ways price wise or supply wise? Oh yeah, we've experienced this shortage since April this year. Yeah, we ran out of Yame. We are waiting on the Yame 2025 Yame because there is no more availability for 2024 and customers really like Yame. So we are waiting on that.

Carolina · 36:48

We have some Kagoshima and Uji, the Shizuoka. It's so popular because it seems to be the tea that the whole world wants. It wants like a good enough matcha, but not that expensive. So I feel that that matcha is the one that is in the worst place, the one that is the most demanded. Most in demand, huh?

Carolina · 37:10

Yeah, yeah, because it's ceremonial, although we would never call it ceremonial. And we tell, we tell people like it's only for lattice, but it's the one that most people can afford. So we are competing with the whole world to get like a Grade 3 matcha.

Carolina · 37:29

Yeah. Yeah. So my take is that for that grade of matcha is still going to be a very fierce competition and I don't think it's going to get any better. We also have very cheap matcha, which is from China, because that's the one that we sell the most for customers that want to pay like $30 a kilogram.

Carolina · 37:53

Yeah, yeah. And we disclose fully that Matcha is Chinese customers that want to pay $30 a kilogram don't really care about origin and they are good as long as their Matcha is there. Yeah. So I think. Of magave syrup, you know.

Carolina · 38:12

Yes, that tastes great. And monk fruit. I think that sector is also going to continue growing and we are prepared for that. But I'm very excited about the Connoisseur group as well, because that allows us to keep developing our specialty matcha program and just keep giving people more knowledge about matcha without any restrictions on the information. Because I think for the longest time matcha information has been so well transmitted in our wrong way. Because the whole, not the whole world obviously, but the the people who consume matcha feel that there's either a ceremonial grade or culinary grade.

38:52

Yep, and culinary grade's been stigmatized. Yeah, cleaner grade has been stigmatized and ceremonial grade is not understood at all. And it's not even a. Thing that's a perfect description. Culinary grade is stigmatized, Ceremonial grade is not understood. That's like that.

39:08

There's not so. Much confusion because from we have a small has more space because we specialize in wholesale and in tastings and online sales, but we still have a small space where people can come and order their matcha and 95% of the customers who come when they order matcha like.

39:29

Oh, is it ceremonial grade? Yeah. Yeah, well, I mean, they're do what they do what they're told to. Like, I mean, that's how it's been marketed to everyone. And then now it's just what everyone asks for and expects. And it's putting this genie back in the bottle is going to be really hard.

39:46

Yeah, really, really hard. It's really unfortunate, although you know, I'm very great. I think my heart take in general about the shortage is that the world should be very grateful that this Chinese matcha exists, that you can sell like $30 a kilo.

40:01

Because I if you do the math, I did the math recently and I saw that David from Tezumi wrote an article doing math about how much good matcha there is in the world in terms of the number of people that can drink a matcha every day and for a high end matcha. There's depends on how you calculate it. There's about Japan produces enough high end matcha for about 1 to 2 million people in the world to drink good matcha every day like.

40:28

That's really per year. Yeah, per year. And that's about how much they can make it. It can service about 2,000,001 to 2 million people, depending on how you do the math. And like that's not enough. No, it's definitely not enough. And like a lot of those matcha consumers don't want, need, or care about anything that this high end matcha has to offer. Like it without, like the Chinese matcha serving the bottom of the market, then this industry can't grow and the there's not going to be enough of a product for the people who actually want the good product.

41:04

Yeah, that's. Really. Important. And as long as you declare it, I think there's no problem that you are not fooling consumers that you're not purchasing the real thing. But since most people don't care, then it's fine. Because yeah. It's a Uji Macha from Guizhou.

41:24

Yeah, the only. Thing that that bothers me is that they label it as product from Japan and then it's not. That's the only thing that. It's mislabeled. Yeah, the laundry is is a thing. Lot of abuse it's. Within, between China and Japan, within China, it's, it's a very, it's a old industry really. You've seen people doing that for a long time, different tea categories.

41:53

And when people, like, sympathize with Japanese tea farmers, sometimes you read in the comments section like, it's time we need to start growing tea in the US to take pressure off the system in Japan. And like, it feels like these are the same people that are stigmatizing Chinese matcha.

42:08

And I'm thinking in the back of my head, what if there was a country that has produced tea for longer than Japan that happens to be really good at making green tea? They could also be making matcha to help take pressure off of this system. Like it's the stigma of Chinese matcha, especially as it gets better and better.

42:26

It's a bit bizarre to me. And I'm waiting for some samples from Taiwan that it's Taiwanese matcha. I'm going to be trying them these harvests in two weeks. I think they're going to come. And I'm very excited about that because Taiwanese are also very, very good at making tea.

42:43

So. The regulations are also very strict, so I'm very excited to try other origins. And I really feel that if the the process of making tencha is respected without cutting corners, as Shunan keeps telling me, you can have other origins that are not only Japanese that can be very good. Because let's say that Wuyishan decides to start making matcha. I think that Wuyishan, like the terroir of Wuyishan, could be much better than Uji because Wuyishan is one of those theroirs that it's such such a delight.

43:18

Yeah, it's it's very unique, but also, you know that the cultivar, one thing that I'm most concerned about is the cultivar because you know, like you need a lot of catechin in the cultivar for Wulong Cha. To you don't. Think oxidize, you know, and. Think that they could play like in some of but some of the parts of Wuyishan they could shave like Uji Hikari or Samidori. Or.

43:44

Japanese Cultivars. Yeah, with Japanese cultivar probably will be very interesting. Yeah, because. Rou Gui was not a thing 80 years ago. It became so popular like during the last 80 years that it became a cultivar and now it's one of the best cultivars for China's tea.

44:00

So I think, I mean, it depends, right, if China is going to do that, but some of the best tea in the world are definitely in China. So if they start growing Japanese varietals, I think it's going to become even more interesting than matcha industry.

44:17

Although there's so much money for Wuyi rock tea, in general, it's probably more profitable. Just stick with the Yancha. The domestic market likes it. Who knows, because I don't think there's the same interest in Wuyi teas as there is for matcha.

44:34

So who knows what's going to happen because interest in China. Yeah, the domestic sales of you know oolong tea or even teas in general like who are is declining and there's not enough, you know overseas demand might be interesting to see like if people starting to find opportunities and commercial incentives to produce a higher quality matcha in China. Do the Taiwanese tea that you're sourcing, do they have Japanese cultivars?

45:08

And where in Taiwan is it? Is it grown? Apparently it's near Pinglin. England, OK, that's for North, right? Because Pinglin specializes more in Baozhong. Yeah. Or. Greener, greener teas. And Taiwan was a Japanese colony after all.

45:23

Yep. Yeah, years or something. No, they're all close to 100 years, Yeah. It was 100 years. Almost it's Oh, that's very interesting. Do. You know what cultivars they have? Is it mostly what cultivars? I don't know. I I can reach out to you and tell you as long as I try it and see what cultivars they're sending me.

45:43

OK? Yeah. Interesting, Cool. Well, that that's, that's interesting. Actually haven't heard about I, I, I knew that Taiwan produced some really low end matcha or like maybe like cosmetics or something. No. Boba because Taiwan is obsessed with boba. Yeah, Boba.

46:02

Very cool though, we love Taiwanese. Tea. Yeah, Taiwanese tea is great. We went on a trip there as students in 20. Wow. What year was it 2015 in 2015? Yeah, 2015 Where did you go to school? A Penn State. Wow. Yeah. And we had a tea program there and part of it we did exchanges. So we would bring in people from abroad, and typically we brought people in from Taiwan to present and then they would always invite us and we could get money from the university to sponsor our ticket.

46:32

So we would do a bit in exchange, we would bring them and then we'd send about four or five people. That's so cool that you're you are so. Involved with tea? Oh, yeah, yeah. We have to like, raise the money. They they have this big pool of money that you can like pitch and say, hey, it's culturally enriching.

46:53

These students are going to come back and teach other students about tea. So we had to, like, set up a whole pitch, but they were really nice. They took us. We went to Taipei, we went down to Dong Ding in Nantou County, visited some Dong Ding producers and the Lugu Tea Association tasted a bunch of stuff.

47:09

And there's a, it was a perfect, like, first origin trip for tea at the beginning of our year. Yeah, yeah. So the university was quite supportive at the time. They even issued us academic credit for that's. Pretty nice. So it was.

47:26

That was pretty awesome. 10 years ago now. Yeah. So last question, what's the future plan for Soita as we you know, keep growing the business and also the consumers are keep growing in Mexico? Well, one of my plans is to be even more transparent with all the information about Matcha and try to reduce the confusion in consumers. That's one of the reasons why I make a lot of videos, so people can have both, like the information that they can get without being fully confirmed and then information that they can trust.

Carolina · 48:05

So even if they don't become our customers, they can purchase the product that best suits them. Just knowing what's out there. So just being very transparent and giving all their producers their place. So we can have that respect for all the producers and all the matcha tradition that has been around for more than 800 years. So just keeping that tradition alive, obviously adjusting it to the Mexican culture and instead of doing like a cultural appropriation, doing more of a cultural appreciation because the line is very thin.

Carolina · 48:43

And yeah, I would keep fighting not to cross it and just do the cultural appreciation part. Yeah, intentions matters the most. I. Feel. Yeah, yeah, intention matters. Yeah, that's great. I think that's where that line is typically. Yeah, it's all about intention.

Ryan · 49:02

Yeah, all about intention. But it's awesome to hear and really interesting like T journey of of your company and your story from Tucson to Kongfucha to Matcha. It's this was really interesting. You don't hear that very often when we interview other Matcha founders. It was very fresh.

Carolina · 49:20

Also, because I was very young and it's very different to start that company when you are in your mid 30s because now looking back as my early 20s, because I was 22, I would be like I would never do that. I had no idea how.

Carolina · 49:38

Like anything. But when you're like 20, like at least for me, I didn't really think much. I was just like ready to start the business after working in the government. So it's just a different life perspective, because the more you know, also for me, the more afraid you are of messing up. Yeah, I'm misleading the consumer. So now that I know more, I feel more responsible not to mislead consumers.

Ryan · 50:05

Yeah, for sure. Although it's good that I think the same with us. If we knew how hard what we attempted to do with this matcha mill was, we might have not have started. The naivete is very productive sometimes. No, but it's good that you're going to have a matcha mill that actually works because there are many in the market, right, that are like.

Ryan · 50:27

Yeah, they're yeah, not as performant. Yeah, yeah. So we're, yeah, we're excited. Yes. Can't wait, I think. You sure? Well, thank you so much for coming on and thank you to our audience as well. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider sharing with a friend and we'll see you in the next one.

50:44

Thanks. Thank you. Thanks. Bye, nice to meet you.