Interview with Rocky's Matcha, Rocky

Ryan · 0:00

Hello and welcome to the Specialty Matcha Podcast. My name is Ryan. This is Zongjun Li, who also goes by Sam. Hello. And we're the cofounders of Sanko Matcha Products. Yeah, we launched this podcast to discuss our learning journey, Matcha, share startup stories and interview experts.

Ryan · 0:14

And today we have Rocky Shu from Rocky's Matcha joining us. Welcome, Rocky. Hey. Guys, what's going on? How are you? Awesome, awesome. So yeah, before we dive into all the questions, would you be able to share a little bit about, you know, your personal and professional background?

Rocky · 0:30

Yeah, So my name is Rocky Shu I I'm the founder of Rocky's Matcha. Started Rocky's Matcha a few years ago now. I'd say probably like 2022, the 2022 we did our first pop up and it's been quite the ride. Obviously Matcha has seen a meteoric rise in in in the overall category. And I think, you know, we've been blessed to be a part of that.

Rocky · 0:56

As far as professional journey, yeah, I mean, I've, I've, I've worked a number of jobs. You know, I started my career in China at, at Nike China. And then I actually moved to New York for a little bit. And then about nine years ago, I moved to Los Angeles. So I've kind of lived all over the world, traveled quite a bit, you know, Tokyo at this point now just from going there so much for various things related to tea or just travel, you know, also feels like a second home.

Rocky · 1:28

Ryan and I had a chance to meet randomly and in in a in a couple of different parts of the world. But the more recent time was was in Paris, which also feels like, you know, another home away from home. But yeah, I guess, you know, I hope that sums it up. But you know, obviously we can we can get into any other questions that you guys might have or what have you. Awesome.

Zongjun · 1:49

Yeah, we we share some former like home bases because Zongjun lived in Jing'an in Shanghai for three years and we both lived in New York. Yeah, I lived in, I lived in Jing'an for like, I mean, it's almost almost six years.

Ryan · 2:04

Oh, cool, cool. Wow. That's overlap. Yeah, yeah, we definitely overlapped. Yeah. That's super cool. Beautiful neighborhood. Yeah, cool. Well, I guess my first question was right. I'd love to hear a bit more about the origin story of like, what was the impetus like I guess one, how did you get into matcha and like how was it played a journey in your life? And then how did that manifest into Rocky's Matcha both at 1st? And then how was that evolved?

Rocky · 2:31

Yeah, so, so I lived in New York from 2013 to 2016. You know, at that time when I was living in New York, there was kind of like, I don't know if you want to call it like first wave of, of matcha cafes or matcha bars. Literally Matcha Bar was, was, was one of the first places that I'd gone and gotten a matcha. And then obviously the guys from Cha Cha Matcha, you know, played a played a pretty big role in, in, in introducing matcha to, you know, millennial lens, right.

Rocky · 3:03

And you started to see more and more cafes carrying matcha around that time. So this is like 2014, 2015. So at that point, I, you know, obviously heard of matcha, drank matcha, but it's by no means part of everyday life. It was very much kind of like, OK, go, you know, to Matcha Bar Cha Cha Matcha, get a matcha, whatever.

Rocky · 3:26

And you know, kind of go about your day in 2020, I would say maybe a few months into the pandemic, I made the decision to go and do some energy work with this spiritual guide energy healer. Some people might call him a shaman. And you know, something that friends of mine and former Co workers of mine had gone and said that it was, you know, quite the experience.

Rocky · 3:53

And at that point in time, I think a lot of us were cooped up at home and looking for different ways to pass time or maybe getting a little bit more spiritual or reading more books or cooking or, you know, all of the above, right.

Rocky · 4:06

And so I went and, and, and sought them out and, and we did some energy work. I'd say it was probably like a 3-4 hour experience All in all. And towards the end of the session, he kind of, you know, decided he was like, OK, I'm going to put you on a 21 day chakra cleanse.

Rocky · 4:24

And we, you know, he was like, there's certain things that you need to kind of adhere to. So it was no alcohol, no tobacco, no sex, etcetera. And I was like, OK, no problem. I'm at home by myself. Like all of this is, is, is fine. Like I, I didn't smoke to begin with. And, you know, I was never like, I was never somebody that, that that would ever drink by themselves, right. And, you know, so anyways, I'm like getting ready to leave and, and go about my day.

Rocky · 4:53

And he goes, hey, there's one more thing. It's kind of like that famous, like Steve Jobs, like one more thing, right? And so he goes, there's one more thing. And I was like, OK, yeah, like, what's up? And he goes, hey, do you drink coffee? And I was like, oh, yeah, like 2-3, four cups of coffee a day. Love going to, you know, whatever coffee shop get my Americano or cold brew or, you know, whatever, Right. And he goes, yeah, OK, I think I need you to stop drinking coffee.

Rocky · 5:20

And I was like, as a part of this cleanse, like, what are we talking about? And he was like, no, no, no, like, I think you should actually just consider giving up coffee like entirely. And I was just like, all right, dude, like everything else we talked about today, like, I'm pretty sure I can do like, this, this, this giving coffee thing.

Rocky · 5:36

Yeah. I don't know. And he was like, no, just trust me. He was like, it has a tendency to kind of like, get you too high and too low. And, you know, like, he's like, I think it might be good for you to just stay a little bit more even keeled. I'm like, OK, all right, I'm willing to try everything once. But at that point, I'm like, I need to go get a coffee because like, if he's telling me that I got to stop drinking coffee right now, I need to go have, like, one last coffee, right. And yeah, and, and, and so he was, he, he basically said like, if you need caffeine, switch over to tea. You'll find that it's, it's,

Rocky · 6:07

it's a little bit more calmer, it's smoother. There's not as much of that peak and, or there's not as much of the peak and valley of coffee. And I was like, OK, all right, like I'm done to give, I'm always happy to give everything a, a, a try. And at that point in time at home had somebody had sent me a matcha set or like a whisk and some matcha. And so I get home and, and I start making matcha and different types of tea, whether it's black tea, green tea. And I really found making a matcha every morning to be somewhat therapeutic and, and very much like there was a ritual aspect of it.

Rocky · 6:51

And so I found myself at that point in 2020 and you know, as we kind of like moved into 21 and 22, doing what a lot of people are doing now in terms of like seeking out high quality matcha, whether it's in Japan or other parts of the world and buying it and getting it shipped back to the US via like FedEx, DHL, whatever. Right?

Rocky · 7:16

And so I was that person that was, I wasn't quite doing all of the matcha reviews, but I was buying a lot of the different matcha blends that I could find online, whether it was Ippodo or Marukyu Koyamaen or whoever. And I, you know, was purchasing quite a bit of it and making matcha at home.

Rocky · 7:35

And I would even go so far as to kind of like bring it with me when I traveled, friends of mine started to notice. And one of my close friends, Paulo, who has a business partner in Japan, he one day was just like, hey, like you've been doing this corporate thing for, for for a long time.

Rocky · 7:52

Like, why don't you do your own thing? Like, have you ever thought about doing your own thing? And I was like, yeah, no, I don't. You know, I'm like, I like the safety net of of of, of having a paycheck every two weeks benefits, all that right.

Rocky · 8:07

And he was like, no, no, no, but like you should think about like doing your own thing. He's like, I know you got the matcha thing, like, why don't you just, you know, do something with that? He's like, you know, me and his business partners is multi hyphenate creative name Verde.

Rocky · 8:19

He was like, you know, me and Verde will support you whatever you need, this, this and that. And I was like, OK, like, if that's the case, like maybe you guys can do the branding. We'll come up with the name this and that.

Rocky · 8:27

Fast forward a couple months, he goes, Hey, like would you want to bring your matcha to this, the flea market that I'm starting? And I was like, I don't even have a name for this yet. I don't like, you know, we have no branding. We have nothing.

Rocky · 8:41

Like I don't even know where I'm getting this product. You know, at that point I was just purchasing like product wherever I could and just kind of like, you know, using that right? Like, and it, and it very much was not a business. And he and, and, and Paula was like, hey, like we have Henry's pizza in Osaka, Japan, you know, Henry's pizza. There's no actual Henry, but it's Henry's pizza. And then he's like, and then I'm going to have my mom do her empanadas at the flea market too. We're going to call it Carmen's, Carmen's empanadas. He's like, just call it Rocky's Matcha. You can always just change the

Rocky · 9:10

name later. And I was like, all right, sure, like we can change the name later. I'm, I'm not the type of person that most of my close friends know that I'm not the type of person. I still have very much like a lot of imposter syndrome when it comes to like the fact that, you know, my name is, is on the product, but I think it's generic or, or, or, you know, special enough of a generic and special enough of a name at the same time that it doesn't necessarily have to be me.

Rocky · 9:36

So it's just like, oh, Rocky's Matcha. It's like you don't actually need the, the, the founder front and center. And I'm try to do that a little bit more. I would say over the last like few months, it's kind of create a little bit of distance.

Rocky · 9:48

You know, here I am doing doing this podcast with you guys. All that, all that to say, Rocky's Matcha started at my friend, my close friend Paulo's flea market called Central Flea. Him and his business partner Verdi did not have a chance to help with the branding. They were quite busy.

Rocky · 10:09

And so I'd hit up another good friend of mine who now is, is is is a partner in the business, Max Arkin to help me with the brand identity. And he did. And, you know, now it's been three years and we've had to change the company from one entity to another entity.

Rocky · 10:27

And, you know, we've gone through various different suppliers and, you know, like we've seen the business sort of grow out of my apartment into an office. And, you know, now we're working with the different types of people both in Japan, but I mean, there's even someone in Paris that we work with. There's, you know, all sorts of different food facilities now here in Southern California that we're working with. And, you know, the, the, the journey has been, has been a lot of fun.

Rocky · 10:53

It's, it's definitely stressful at times, but at the same time, I think there's nothing more rewarding than having something that is your own. And you know, you're also able to provide for your employees and, and give them an opportunity to, you know, learn and grow and you know, their livelihoods are, are are sort of dependent on the trajectory of the of the business. But I mean, you guys know this from starting your own businesses and obviously doing various things, so. Start start up throughout.

Rocky · 11:27

Yeah, hopefully, hopefully that answers your question, Ryan. Super interesting. Yeah, that's the team now, just out of curiosity. The team is, we're growing, I would say full time. We have like 5 or 6 different people and then with part time staff and contractors and it varies month by month. But I would say, you know, if you're not including like kind of like professional services like accountant and lawyers and all that.

Rocky · 11:55

And we're probably, we, we probably flex up to like somewhere between 10 and 15 every month with like contractors. And yeah, so, yeah, we have, we have, we have a couple of folks in Japan helping us now. And yeah, business is, is, is definitely grown.

Rocky · 12:11

But you know, I feel like, like anybody else in the matcha space, business has probably grown for the most part over the last like 9 to 12 months. Yeah, we're, we're, we're definitely, you know, I count my blessings every day and I'm, I'm super grateful for I, I, I guess you could say stumbling, you know, across this, this, this industry super.

Zongjun · 12:31

Interesting. Well, I guess this is like very different from like your past corporate life in Nikes and all those places. Did any of those experience back in those large corporations help you build Rocky's Matcha or what's the difference? The difference?

Rocky · 12:49

Yeah. I mean, so when I was at Nike, one of the departments that I worked in was a department called Energy Marketing. I think that name just kind of changed over the years, but energy marketing was by, you know, I'm trying to think like by Nike standards, but also like just general marketing, kind of, you know, nomenclature.

Rocky · 13:08

It was always meant to kind of find ways to extend the brand beyond what the brand actually like, you know, was grounded in. So for Nike, it was sport, right? So as an energy, as a as a person who worked in energy marketing, it was our job to go out and find ways to dimensionalize the brand beyond sport.

Rocky · 13:26

And specifically we look to fashion, food, design, art, culture, right? And I would say that and thinking about how to extend the brand and take it to new places and the idea of collaboration, you know, these sort of things definitely help me think. Me and Max think about how we wanted to position Rocky's matcha.

Rocky · 13:51

And you know, none of this is his fabricated. Like it's all very much organic because Max and I have a lot of genuine interest beyond just matcha. I mean, Max is even caffeine sensitive, so he's not like drinking as much much as I am, but you know, he's he's naturally he comes from more like music and design space.

Rocky · 14:12

I obviously come from more of like this sports brand, athletic performance slash, you know, art design slash fashion, whatever you want to call it, right space. And so I think the beauty of like the two of us working together on this is that like we've been able to take something that is sacred and, you know, 1000 plus year old kind of product and think about it a little differently.

Rocky · 14:38

And, and, and not so much that like we want to bastardize it by any means. Like we want to, you know, like shine a light on it. We just want to kind of do it through our own vantage point or perspective where we can hopefully take it somewhere new and it's still very like authentic and grounded way. And so I would say like my time in Nike, spending time in a big organization, but also thinking about it from like the actual, you know, specifics of my job have really helped me kind of think about Rocky's matcha.

Rocky · 15:10

And, you know, we've been fortunate enough to work with some amazing brands in the short amount of time that we've been around. You know, we've done stuff with Nike, we've done stuff with Louis Vuitton. We this year we did something with Byredo, you know, the list goes on and on. So yeah, I mean, like I would say like in the spirit of collaboration and and and partnership, a lot of what I learned at the big brand at Nike, I've been able to sort of replicate with with a much smaller brand, Rockies Matcha very.

Rocky · 15:40

Cool. Wow, you did collaboration with Byredo. It's like, yeah, fine fragrance and with Matcha. Yeah, they, they, they, they asked us, you know, to they, they, they did a big store opening and product launch in Tokyo and they asked us to come out and, you know, be a part of it.

Rocky · 15:59

And yeah, you know, talk about imposter syndrome, like selling macho in, in Japan, you know, with a, with a Swedish brand. No, it was, it was, it was great. And you know, we've done a few things in in Tokyo now and you know, we've been again, like fortunate enough to work with like local Japanese brands, like Ooika as well over the years.

Ryan · 16:18

And like it's, it's been really humbling to have these opportunities and, and to do these things you. Said something really striking and it was adding dimensionality to a brand sort of beyond the traditional spheres in which people think of and like Rocky's matcha in particular, like you guys have one of the most iconic matcha brands out there.

Ryan · 16:39

And it's almost more of a feeling that that dimensionality to me is a feeling like the the can that you did with Dreaming Man. For those of you who can't see the video, this is, you know, a can that's wrapped and it almost looks like it came out of an Hermes store and it feels like French luxury. It's adding dimensions in way that don't this could like you very easily feel tacky or out of place, but it doesn't. So like how do you do that execution? How do you add that dimensionality in a way that feels authentic?

Rocky · 17:11

Is the best word I can think of the real magic that you guys sprinkle on. Like I don't even want to call it the aesthetic because it's more than that. Like I I don't have the vocabulary to to. No, you're. Ryan. I yeah, I mean, I'm honestly, I'm just like, I think blessed to be able to work with some of the best and brightest minds in the space. The Dreaming man partnership came together because. Because again, I, I would go and frequent the, the coffee shop in Yuishiro, who's Japanese and from Shizuoka. One of the reasons are probably, you know, prefectures that we, that we source from, he never

Rocky · 17:50

had matcha on the menu because he was like, I don't want to be sort of, you know, cornered into like a Japanese owned coffee shop in Paris that sells matcha. You know, when I started doing Rockies matcha and was, you know, showing up and and and doing pop ups with them, he was like, Oh no, there's maybe is something here like why don't we offer matcha at one of their other locations? You know, maybe I'm I'm taking a roundabout way to get back to your question, Ryan.

Rocky · 18:14

But through that, we started working with another friend from Japan, Ryuto Miyake. And Ryuto did the branding for Dreaming Man And he has since, you know, he not even since, but he's, he's done so much work over the years.

Rocky · 18:29

He's worked with Gucci, he's worked with Arctarex. He's, you know, obviously worked with us and dreaming man. And I mean, if you go to his website, you can see all the amazing brands as he's, that he's worked with. And so through dreaming Man, he discovered Ryuto's work and, you know, became friendly with them. And Max, my business partner and I, Max does all of all of the creative for, for Rocky's matcha. You know, we started working with Ryuto and you know, I'm talking to you show at Dreaming Man. We decided we're like, hey, like maybe there's something that we can do here.

Rocky · 19:00

Like dreaming man's brand, you know, identity is, is, is really iconic. You know, we'd love to do something special for you guys because they're the only retailer that that that we work with in Europe. Like really officially, you know, a lot of that is just organic friendship. That's grown over the last like 5 years. You sure?

Rocky · 19:20

Of course was like, all right, well, let's bring on Ryuto. You know, there's just this organic relationship that that that came about. We honestly just let Ryuto kind of like go crazy. You know, he took, he obviously didn't, didn't sort of deviate too much from like where we've been in terms of like certain things, like he didn't change the form factor of the tin. You know, he left the logo up at the top of the tin, but then he really applied some of the amazing things that he's done for Dreaming Man to, you know, to the tin. And so I say all of that to say, like for us, like Max, my business partners, largely

Rocky · 19:58

responsible for like our brand identity, our creative, our, you know, like this, this sort of feeling that we want to evoke, but also this brand that we want to stand for. And then at the same time, you know, a lot of it is just organic and working with people that are.

Rocky · 20:16

The best at what they do in the fields that they do, you know, that that their their practices in, but maybe they just haven't worked on anything that's either, you know, food related or tea related or obviously macho related.

Rocky · 20:30

And then we're just asking them to kind of like bring their point of view to, to to this industry. So yeah. Creative outlet for some, for for other people, basically. Yeah, so. There isn't really like kind of like a, you know, a brand identity guideline that is being set in the beginning, but you know, you kind of offer everyone a platform to kind of add their own interpretation. Yeah.

Rocky · 20:55

I mean, I would, I would say the, the only guidelines are that there is somewhat of like we, we, we never want anything to feel forced. We always want things to feel organic and natural. And, you know, the second that we're not having fun or the second that this feels forced, like I would say we, we, we, we probably say, OK, you know what, like this maybe doesn't make sense of this moment in time.

Rocky · 21:16

Like we'll push pause and, you know, we can always come back to it. But now as we're growing, I would say we're starting to have to put maybe some more guardrails around what it is that we do. And all of that. So yeah, we're still super like nimble and young company. And you know, we never wanted to feel too corporate, but obviously as we grow, we definitely need to kind of like put more guardrails and parameters in place to make sure that we keep or we upkeep the brand at a certain level. Something that you guys have done and something you've talked about on other podcasts too is I think you used the term event capture.

Zongjun · 21:51

I'm like really new to this marketing space and world in general, so apologies if that's the wrong lingo. But how do you guys think about those investments and like capturing the content and the people and the way you kind of expose that and share that dimensionality on platforms?

Rocky · 22:07

Yeah, I mean, look, we, we, we started the brand started like and even like the logo, right or the, or the brand identity, you know the mark like the kind of chicken scratch like that's Max's handwriting. It's, it's, it's not mine, but it's Max's. And it started because this idea or the brief that I gave him was like, hey, like I kind of want this to feel like a lemonade stand.

Rocky · 22:29

You know, like when you're a kid and, and you're Hawking lemonade for, you know, $0.25 now it's probably $1.50, right? But you're selling lemonade on the side of the road. And that honestly was kind of how we got started.

Rocky · 22:41

Like we, we started by doing pop ups. We started by not having any tins or jars or containers, canisters, whatever you want to call it for sale. We started by selling matcha at events, events that sort of aligned with our interests and a lot of our community, you know, were at those events. And, and from there we just decided that like it would make sense, like, you know, from a content perspective, like to be able to share that with, with everybody, right? Like, and this is like what we're doing. We're, we're looking to build community and engage with our audience a little bit differently. We never wanted to feel like we

Rocky · 23:18

were speaking down to people. We were, you know, like trying to sort of be on this high horse and, you know, tell everybody that they don't know what they're talking about when it comes to matcha or this and that. Like if anything, like you want to help educate and also just bring people along for the going back to like the events.

Rocky · 23:37

I think community is so important to the success of, of, of, of any brand. Again, I think we've just been lucky where, you know, we I've made a lot of friends over the years and, you know, this was a was, was, was a space in which, you know, not necessarily like everybody was thinking about food or, you know, most of my friends have worked in fashion and design and art over the years.

Rocky · 24:03

And, you know, now there's a whole new wave of entrepreneurs that are looking to, you know, bring their touch to the food space. One of my other best friends, Pedro, he Pedro was actually the, the person who introduced Max and I, but Pedro opened Community Goods in 2020, I believe. So it's been about two years or two plus years now. And you know, I mean the name even, you know, it has community in the name of the, of the cafe.

Rocky · 24:30

Like it's arguably the most successful cafe here in Los Angeles. There's a line down the block at 7:00 AM when they open. But you know, he and I, I think, like, I think you would agree. But like, you know, we, we, we approached things very kind of like honestly and holistically.

Rocky · 24:46

And, you know, we really want what we're building to represent the community that we come from or the communities that we come from. And you know, he always wanted to set out and just build a place that his friends could go and get a coffee or a matcha or, you know, a sandwich at and be able to hang out. And, you know, it's kind of the same for us when we started, which was we wanted to serve a good cup of matcha for great people everywhere.

Rocky · 25:09

And you know, our traveling tea house kind of went around the world from LA to New York to Chicago to Miami to Tokyo, Even so on and so forth. And obviously more recently, Bryan in Paris, right. And so all of the events and just being able to share that, you know, like with the world, like was, was, was something that we thought would be be interesting. So yeah, hopefully that answers, you know, your, your, your question as far as like event capture and. Awesome.

Zongjun · 25:42

Wow, very interesting. So I guess a follow up question on top of that is do you usually have kind of like a direction or you know, certain types of event that you are, you know, actively thinking about to activate or you just kind of let you know the relationship started organically and you know, take what? Yeah, most if not all the events that we've done are birthed out of organic relationships.

Rocky · 26:04

A lot of brands that reach out now, you know, if there's no sort of direct connection to us or personal connection to me or someone on the team, we respectfully will, will, will decline or we'll just say, hey, maybe this isn't to make the most sense for us at this moment in time.

Rocky · 26:22

In 2023, going into 24, I think one of my goals for the, for the company was to do an event every month. And I think we probably did more than that. But you know, now I think it's, it's, it's, it's a matter of does this event make sense? You know, who's, who's the event speaking to? Is our audience already thinking about this event? And if not, is it a new audience? You know, how easy is this event or brand that we're potentially going to be working with going to be to work with? You know, we, we don't want to think, we don't want to do things that just, you know, are disingenuous or don't feel right.

Rocky · 27:02

We don't want to do things that are just, you know, like a money grab or what have you. Like, I think like most of the events that we do, to be honest, like we don't make money on. But for us, it's a, it's a way to, you know, celebrate our community and, and to, you know, share our love for matcha and design and, you know, just good organic relationships with with with one another. I mean, this more recent one that we did in and Paris, that Dreaming man, like this is the third or fourth time that we had worked together.

Rocky · 27:35

Obviously, we had decided to kind of use this moment to release the collaborative tin that we did together. But you know, it was just kind of like, let's do something together. It was a day after Fethullah music and in Paris and, you know, a lot of people were like still maybe hungover or moving a little slow from the night before. And Yuichiro and UE, Yuichiro's partner surprised me. And they're like, hey, we actually got the Usu machine.

Rocky · 28:02

So we're going to do matcha soft serve. And, you know, we served, I served. I was making matcha, you know, for six hours and we just invited our friends. Ryan came and, you know, a lot of other folks that I, you know, either met briefly or, you know, maybe I'd not met yet would come by and just say hi.

Rocky · 28:21

And it's, it's, it's amazing that, you know, tea can kind of like take you all over the world and and, you know, introduce you to people like, you know, the two of you guys, right. So, yeah, all that to say, I think like making sure that the, that the event feels like it's an authentic and organic thing for us is, is probably the most important, most, most of these things. You know, I, I, I wish I could say that they made a lot of money, but but they don't.

Rocky · 28:46

And I think it's, I think it's OK that they don't because it's not, you know, the events ultimately, yeah, we would love for all of the events to make a lot of money. But I think for for the time being, it's more about like continuing to share our passion and love for good high quality matcha with with a growing audience.

29:04

Well, as long as everyone is having fun. What, what do you want people to feel when they interact with your brand? What's the I don't want to call it the mission, but like, what feeling do you want to instill in either the communities that you're tapping into and or the communities that you're building?

29:22

Yeah. I mean, I, I think like for US, one of the things that we're interested in and, and sort of helping with whether it's, you know, us or any other matcha or tea brand or coffee brand or, you know, what have you, is like this idea of of sort of like building a ritual.

29:43

Like I wake up every morning, you know, will usually look at my phone, even though I've been trying not to, but I'll look at my phone, I'll do a little scrolling emails, what have you. And then I'll walk into my kitchen and I will make a matcha. And that's how I know my day is started, right. Like and, and, and I think like one of the things that we want to do is to just introduce tea and you know, specifically matcha, matcha green tea to the world. And I just let them know that this is like in, in making a cup of matcha at home every day or on the road or getting a cup of matcha at, at, at your local

30:19

cafes. You know, ways to kind of signal to yourself that like the day is, is, is, is starting. It's a moment, you know, especially for me at home, it's a moment of stillness and, and sort of calmness where I can just have a moment to myself and, and not think about the million emails or, you know, my long and ever growing To Do List. And, you know, it's, it's, it's therapeutic, it's meditative, it's all of these things.

30:49

And you know, if we can or if we can play a role in, in, in offering that moment to all of our customers and our general audience. And you know, I'd be, I'd be over the moon. Like a personal ceremony. Yeah, yeah, yeah, very, very much so.

31:04

If you invert the question, like what don't you want to be associated with or do? Because like you guys feel very contemporary, like your collaborations with Tom Sachs with all of these brands, like, it very much feels like a purposeful decision not to wash yourself in traditional Japanese tea ceremony or all of these other things.

31:25

And what's really interesting that I've noticed on the Internet is the number of traditional Japanese matcha players like Tsuji San's Instagram account or Horii Shichimeien, that cross poster stuff. And I think you're developing interest from the other side at the way that you approach it specifically and what you guys are not doing? Yeah, so like.

31:48

How do you think about that? And is it like hard lines about what you don't want to do or don't want to be perceived as and and it seems to really like draw interest from all sides, I guess. Yeah, I mean, I think of like the Japanese tea ceremony is something that's very sacred.

32:06

I personally have not signed up for tea school, you know, yet, but it's something that I've strongly considered and, you know, would love to find time to go to tea school and like really kind of like learn more about the tea ceremony.

32:20

I have a general idea and, you know, obviously I've gone and participated in tea ceremonies, but you know, I don't actually know how to administer it from the sort of like practitioner side. You know, again, it just goes back to this idea of like being authentic and, and, and honest.

32:35

Like I would never want to sell somebody something that I don't actually partake in, you know, or, or, or am not experienced or am not, you know, an expert in right? Like it's not to say that we we can't be someday, but this is again, like it's a sacred thing. It's a it's a product of originally from China, but obviously it's been perfected in Japan and there's so many families and companies and, and there's so much rich tradition and what this means in the other side or the other part of the world where we definitely like we don't want to bastardize that.

33:15

Like that's not who we are. And so I think like where we're able to provide value is to, you know, like with Tsuji San or with Horii, like, I mean, it took two years, I think, before Chunta from Horii Shichimeien, like even got back to me.

33:33

And I think it, it took us. And I think honestly, like he even told me he was like, oh, I saw that, you know, you're working with Tom Sachs. Like we, we they had done some stuff with Theaster Gates, another artist, and he was like, I, I really like what you're doing.

33:46

Like, I think it's cool. And like, you know, yeah, like I would like to find a way for us to work together. And I think it takes like us, it took us, you know, being patient and, and, and doing things our way where we would honor and stay true to sort of like the way in which the tea producers and farmers and companies of like more traditional Japanese tea wanted their tea to essentially be consumed.

34:12

Like we always try to prioritize that. You know, one of the things that I think we never really set out to do is like we don't want to be, we're so blessed right now to kind of like be in the position that we're in, you know, because matcha is obviously seen this boom really in the last like 9 to 12 months, right, 6 to 12 months.

34:30

And you know, what we don't want to be is like, we don't want to just be a flash in the pan. Like we don't want to just be like this month's flavor. You know, whether it's a mango matcha lot lassie or strawberry matcha infused, you know, whatever. Like, I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with that.

34:47

And I'm not saying that, you know, there's food service cafes or restaurants that want to purchase our product and, and, and, and, you know, make a drink like that, Like there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. But I think for us, that's just not who we, and maybe I'm taking a book out of, you know, Zach from Kettle's book, but taking a page out of out of Zach's book. But like, you know, I, I've always admired and really looked up to how like Zach and, and, and the team of Kettle have built their business because they've really stayed true to it.

35:14

And, you know, they've been doing this for 15 years. And so I think for us, you know, our maybe unique way of adding value is, is, is to stay true, but at the same time, you know, add a little bit of like our sort of background, you know, Max and myself, like our, our background to what it is that we are offering up to the to the, to the world.

35:38

Very interesting. Wow. It's really, you know, Ryan, smart in a way that's, you know, it's about you, Ryan, and your company, your friends and all that and so interesting. And intuition and it's like you, I think you've managed to create like a brand that the traditional players like we can use Horii, for example, find cool because you see a lot of people wrapping themselves in traditional Japanese tea ceremony.

36:03

And it's just kind of a reboot of repackaging of something that has a existed for a long time. And you just move the context. But it actually feels like it's moving the narrative forward. Like with what Tom Sachs did the tea ceremony, but both Zongjun and I have a Omotesenke background.

36:19

I think Sam studied for about a year and a half. I studied for three years and the first time I saw Tom Sachs thing, my first thought was this is ridiculous, right? Like this is so bastardizing a little Yoda Pez dispenser for the wagashi. Like filling up things from a fire hydrant. And then you take a second look and you realize, wow, this is such a fresh take.

36:42

It's forcing me to look at chanoyu and tea ceremony in a new way because whoever designed this has deep knowledge about tea ceremony. It's hidden in all of the details and it really forces you to look at something. You spent a lot of time moving 2cm the ball, 2cm to the left, and you're whisking too hard and you're supposed to turn this way, not that way. It forces you to look at it through a totally new lens, which is like, I really like this idea of contemporary matcha and the way that can be expressed in new spaces. It was ridiculous in forms, but it really is in coherence with, you know, the idea of symbolism

37:22

in the chanoyu. Yeah, spirit, not form. How did that Tom Sachs collaboration come about? Tom and I have known each other and worked together when I was at at Nike and he had this, he had this beautiful space that he had been, he had been sort of curating and opening up to his network last summer, the Bodega space.

37:48

A close friend of mine was working with him at the time. And, you know, she had reached out and said, like, I think it'd be really cool if you wanted to do something. And another friend, Benjamin Peterson, who also, you know, his Nike alumni had he left Nike and started a, a coffee brand Black Beach Coffee. And so, you know, Tom had this idea of, you know, it's only Tom can do, decided to call it the morning constitutional. And, you know, he, he, he invited us to, to, you know, sell matcha and coffee in his bodega and we did it for a weekend.

38:23

And, you know, it was amazing. Yeah. I mean, I never, never thought in a, in a million years that I'd be able to work with, with Tom Sachs on, on, on something like that. And, you know, we did it. And so, yeah, it was, it was great.

Rocky · 38:35

But again, organic, authentic. And, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't forced. Obviously there are people and, and, and brands that we've reached out to that, you know, kind of also said no to us. It's not like every what everyone says says yes. I think again, we're just coming from it, coming at it from a place of like authenticity and honesty. And hopefully things are, are organic. Those are the, the, the events and the projects that seem to be the most fun.

Rocky · 39:03

And it doesn't feel like it's forced. It doesn't feel like it's just a, a money grab or what have you. Yeah. What do you mean by authentic? Like what does authenticity mean to you in this context or to me? Yeah, I mean, to me, it's just like, it's like, are you staying true to yourself, right?

Rocky · 39:21

Like I so I'll get up, maybe like rewind or take a step back. I we, we did something earlier this year with a beauty brand. So I don't use makeup, right. I don't, you know, like I know nothing about it. I know that our audience, you know, is, is, is probably an audience that purchases makeup and follows various makeup brands, right?

Rocky · 39:43

Like, you know, there, there are a lot of young females out there who drink matcha regularly. And, you know, close friend of mine, one of my best friends here in LA, she works at, you know, one of the, I guess like fastest growing, but also like authentic, sort of like brands in the space, in my opinion.

Rocky · 40:00

And you know, the name of the brand is say she had reached out and said, like, Hey, like, you know, would you ever want to do anything? And I was like, well, I don't know anything about makeup. And she, you know, sort of said, well, like, you know, like let let us know.

Rocky · 40:12

Like she shared some kind of like insights into the brand. And, you know, as I kind of got more familiar and saw a lot of the she does like all the special events. For, for, for that, for their brand. And I saw what she was doing, which was bringing, you know, makeup along this journey of like positioning it with like really good design, whether it be mid century Modern furniture or homes or, you know, different things and like doing and curating their events in a very chic way that a lot of beauty brands hadn't done before. I was like, well, there's a lot of similarity in what you're doing, in the way that you're

Rocky · 40:45

positioning your brand with our brand, like in what we're trying to do. And, and, and that's where we kind of found alignment. And so, you know, like going back to this question of like, what is, what does it mean to be authentic? And like, for me, it's like, we don't, we didn't necessarily know anything about makeup like Max and I like, don't know, like, you know, what is a good makeup brand versus not? But like, what we did know is that like, here's a brand that one, we had a very organic relationship with because of, you know, my relationship with Misha, my close friend who who works there.

Rocky · 41:17

And two, you know, what they're trying to do in their space mirrored what we're trying to do in our space. And that's where we found like, common ground. And, you know, to be honest, like that was probably, even though it wasn't necessarily like, you know, a partnership that I knew super well from the sense of like, I didn't know all the insurance and outs of say, beauty versus like a dreaming man or Tom Sachs or, you know, what have you?

Rocky · 41:42

I learned a lot along the way and honestly to this day that that might have been our most successful partnership or collaboration like was doing this this project with would say. And so yeah, I think like the authenticity bit is like staying true to yourself.

Rocky · 42:00

But like, you know, it's, it's easy to say now, hey, we would have done that project, you know, 100 times out of of 100 times because of all the sort of virality or, you know, social media engagement that came out of that.

Rocky · 42:14

But at the same time, like, it's, you know, hindsight's 2020. Like it's easy to say that now. Like we know that we would have done it again just because our brand like vision, like for our two brands separate of one another, were, were were lined and, you know, we're authentic and, and in that sense, and that's why it made sense to work together, not just because like, oh, they were like, you know, this preeminent beauty brand that's now in Sephora and all these places. And, you know, we are, you know, debatably like a a cool matcha brand and, you know, we wanted to come together and Matcha is this cool thing right now.

Rocky · 42:47

Like, that's not the reason, like we, we, we decided to work together because there was a personal relationship, but at the same time there was, you know, a very authentic and, and, and organic relationship between the two.

Rocky · 43:00

And I would also just add, like Laney the, the, the founder and CEO of, of say she drinks matcha every day, you know, and she tried different matches. And so, yeah, it's mutual, right? And, and, and so, you know, I guess maybe to take it just one step further, like 'cause I feel like we've spent a good amount of time just talking about like partnerships and collaborations. The one thing that I always think about is like, OK, if we are going to do something together, you know, is this a 1 + 1 = 3 type of equation?

Rocky · 43:29

Or are we solving a problem right? Like, you know, could we have, could either brand have done this without the other? And it, and it has to be, you know, not only not only authentic and, and, and, you know, like sort of like honest to both brands, but at the same time, like, you know, is it mutually beneficial for, for both people? And sometimes it might not be.

Rocky · 43:51

And, you know, I think that's OK. You know, you might know, like, hey, in the back of your head, like I'm doing this as a favor for someone or I'm doing this because, you know, I just want to do it right. I think for the most part, like good collaboration, like really, you know, looks to answer a, a, a challenger or, or a question.

Zongjun · 44:09

And yeah, interesting. Did this kind of mentality also imbued into, you know, how you source matcha back in the days or till nowadays And like what's your sourcing philosophy? And maybe like what, what was your original story of sourcing matcha? It's kind of like a question that we will ask for all the guests.

Rocky · 44:30

Yeah. I mean, look, I, I think that I think we've probably gotten incredibly lucky because we started this in 2022 and you know, we were sourcing matcha. I was visiting Japan in 22 before Japan really even opened up open back up to the world. And through, you know, various kind of like friends that I've met over the years.

Rocky · 44:53

I got introduced to Tsuji San and, you know, I done some like research on the Internet to find like essentially like brokers that would help, you know, through the brokers, we would meet the producers. And then once we met the producers, we show them like, you know, what we're doing.

Rocky · 45:10

You know, for me, the philosophy is like you, the producers that we, that we work with, share a passion and a commitment to developing and and delivering, you know, like quality product. And if they do, then, you know, I think there's a world in which we can work together. And, you know, if they don't, then we wish them the best and they probably wish us the best or hopefully. And, you know, we kind of go, go, go, go about it on our own ways.

Rocky · 45:39

But yeah, I, I think we got really lucky where, you know, now if you're going out and you want to start a matcha brand, it's probably harder and harder because you don't know the reasons to even go look at, you don't know the producers.

Rocky · 45:51

You know, we're still in the process of, of, of, of sourcing, right? Like we're still looking for new producers and suppliers and you know what have you. And I would just say we are looking, a lot of it just starts, you know, with, with, with a search on the Internet.

Rocky · 46:09

And then from there, you know, we typically would like to go and meet with the producer and then, you know, we'll ask for samples. And then from there, they'll they'll either ship a samples or they won't. Or, you know, some sometimes producers have even come all the way to Los Angeles, not to specifically visit with us, but because, you know, they want to expand their business here.

Rocky · 46:29

And they've heard that matcha is obviously growing quite a bit in the US. And, you know, I think like over 80% of it is exported to the US. And so, you know, some producers will ship directly to cafes or food service or, you know, maybe they want to set up a distribution company or what have you. But yeah, I think it all just kind of like goes back to, you know, Brian, you and Sam both both said this. But like when people see our brand, they one we've we've been lucky to be around for, you know, going on three years or three plus years now.

Rocky · 46:58

So there is a catalog or an archive of things that we've done that you can find on the Internet. So it's not like we're just starting from scratch. It's not like, you know, we saw this opportunity and matcha and we want to, you know, just go and kind of like take advantage of it, right? That's not the case.

Rocky · 47:13

So there's that. And then there's also, I think the, the, the part where, you know, we're not looking to, to bastardize it. Like we're not looking to, you know, take something that is very pure and honest and has so much tradition to it. And sort of, you know, re we're looking to re maybe recontextualize it, but we're not looking to reinvent it and we're not looking to take any shortcuts. So yeah, that's where I think maybe we've gotten, we've, we've been fortunate.

Rocky · 47:40

But yeah, it's, it's definitely, it's definitely, you know, quite the, it's definitely been quite the experience. And, you know, some producers we found don't makes sense for for us without naming like names, but you know, there was a producer recently that we didn't feel like we, we, we had been doing business with them for, for well over a year.

Rocky · 48:03

And you know, this last a few months ago we had gone to, to, to go visit with them and they saw the boom in, in, in the matcha industry. And you could argue that they were getting greedy and they wanted to raise their prices.

Rocky · 48:20

Cool, no problem. But then they also wanted to change all of their terms And they wanted to basically not offer any guarantees in terms of, you know, what we had been able to purchase the previous year versus this year because they're essentially saying that they wanted to open it up for, for forbidding. And then, you know, they're like so and by the way, like, you know, we can't guarantee that like what you purchased last year, you can purchase this year. And you know, we can't guarantee that, you know, we can ship you everything on time and this and that. And we're just like, you know what? Like they wouldn't.

Rocky · 48:52

Never apply in any other industry. You can't guarantee how much or when you will get it. I also get it because this is something that's, you know, completely unprecedented and farmers and producers have not made the most money over the years, right?

Rocky · 49:08

So I also see it from their perspective, like this is an opportunity to cash in and, and make a significant amount of money. And I think there's a way to do it and there's a there's a way not to do it. And, you know, I wish that producer nothing but the best and hopefully their business continues to do well.

Rocky · 49:24

But I think just for us, it didn't make sense, right? Like it didn't make sense to kind of like continue working with someone who seemed to not be able to stand behind their, their word. And then there's also producers that we have like very, very, very strong relationships with our friends at Osada Seicha and Suzuka.

Rocky · 49:41

They're great when you go who's, who's our contact there? He and I met at a tea conference in Las Vegas of all places. You know, I happen to be in Japan like maybe like a week or two after that tea conference. And he was like, why don't you come to Suzuka? And, and I did.

Rocky · 49:55

And now literally, you know, I pretty much go visit them like every single trip one, because it's closest to Tokyo, but 2 like you. And I've developed like a, a very kind of like, just like genuine friendship over over the last, like, you know, couple of years.

Rocky · 50:09

And, you know, we're, we're, we're at a point where, you know, we're, we're talking to them about how we can even support them a step further in addition to just buying the product from them. But it's like, OK, what are some things that we can do for you for, for, for you guys?

Rocky · 50:23

You know, like, do you need, you know, most people, I think like, or most businesses in Japan are, are, are, are somewhat conservative. But you know, we're saying to them, like, are there things that we can do, whether it's like additional capital or, you know, resources that we can kind of like devote to what you guys are building?

Rocky · 50:39

Because we believe in what you are, are, are, are producing here and the way in which you're going about your business. And and and also, you know, maybe the last thing I would say is like we there's another producer of not matcha, but just, you know, matcha or tea ware, right, Suikoen.

Rocky · 50:58

They are a 6th generation, you know, chasen maker in Nara. But we, you know, I don't even know if they know this yet, but like, I, I told them this, we just haven't like actually like we're going to wait till maybe like year end to follow through on it.

Rocky · 51:13

But like, you know, Kay, who's, who's our friend there, who like went to, went to College in the US, moved back to Japan, was working at ASICS, left ASICS to go back into the family business to preserve this kind of like centuries, you know, long multi century craft that's been preserved in his family.

Rocky · 51:31

Like he went back, gave up his, you know, like modern job to go back to the family business in the countryside to, to do this. Like there's a dedication on his side to to to want to preserve what his family has been building.

Rocky · 51:45

And for us, it's easy to say like, Oh yeah, like we can, we can purchase, you know, whatever it is that they are producing, whether it's the chasens, whether it's, you know, the with stands or what have you. But like, there's so much history there that like, it deserves to be kind of preserved and, and kept intact. And so one of the things that we want to do is we actually want to take the majority, if not all of the profits that we make from selling their products and give it back to them so that they can continue to hire essentially more people in order to educate them about, you know, the process in which what they're, what, what they're doing.

Rocky · 52:20

You know, they, when, when we first visited with them maybe like a year ago, they could only make 7 chasens a day. And then this more recent visit, they are now able to make, I think like 20 or so. And the hardest thing for them is they can't find people to, to, to to educate and teach.

Rocky · 52:39

And, you know, sort of like, you know, it's very technical, right? And so like for us, like it's not like we sell a million of, you know, what they're able to produce. Like we, we sell what were essentially allocated. And, you know, for us, it's like that money will go a lot further with them so that they can preserve, you know, what it is that they're what they're that they're putting out into the world, you know, versus us here in the US. So, you know, those are the things that I think we think about when it comes to, to to sourcing. I think a lot, a lot of it, you know, is or some of it is derived from, you know, what we

Rocky · 53:13

see in the coffee industry where a lot of like the more contemporary and modern coffee brands, you know, they always talk about being able to kind of like pay not just a fair wage, but like beyond the living wage for people within their supply chain. And that's something that we that we want to do too, right? Like it's a product that a lot of us are, have become obsessive over.

Rocky · 53:31

And, you know, if that's the case, like the people that have helped make it possible along the way deserve to reap some of the, yeah, benefits along the way. Yeah, that's that's the way that I think we're we're thinking about or looking at it. Yeah.

Rocky · 53:43

This. MO really cuts both ways. It's really cool. Yeah, Yeah. It's really just not about business or business relationship. It's something that's been, you know, Matcha has been around for 1000 years and you know, hopefully it's going to be around for 1000 more.

Ryan · 53:58

And I think we, we, we owe it to those who, you know, came before us and paved the way to, to, you know, compensate and also like just share in the, in, in, in, in the current reward or the, OR the current state of the market. All right, Kind of the last question for this podcast, so, so Rocky, any interesting or exciting upcoming events or new collaboration that we can stay tuned and be looking forward to? Yeah, we, I guess the one that's the more imminent one that's on the horizon is family style food festival. So kind of a full circle moment for us where Verdi the the multi hyphenic creative that who is my

Rocky · 54:43

friend Paulo, who kind of gave us the name Rocky's Matcha Verdi's the his is Paulo's business partner. He is the creative director for this year's family style food festival in Los Angeles. So that's taking place September 13th. So we'll be participating in family style. And then, you know, as we look ahead to 2026, we definitely have, you know, a number of things. I think on the horizon.

Rocky · 55:06

There's nothing kind of etched in stone yet, but you know, we're taking days or excuse me, we're taking things one day at a time. And I think above all else, we're trying to solidify our business really like the core business, which is, you know, selling tins of matcha online and you know, all of the other opportunities that have kind of come our way we're we're we're seeing and assessing what makes the most sense. But yeah, I mean, the, I think the goal would be to continue to try and do one event a month.

Rocky · 55:37

And then I think, you know, one of the other things is like we've done a lot of events or repeat events in kind of like bigger cities that we have a home or, or, or has friends in, whether it's LA, New York, Paris, Tokyo even, right.

Rocky · 55:51

One of the things that I think we're challenging ourselves with is can we look to bring our brand to some other, you know, secondary cities or tertiary cities maybe here in the US first? So thinking about some of the sort of like food service cafes and restaurants that we work with and, you know, maybe partnering up with them to do something in their respective city or, you know, what have you. So, yeah, a lot of lot of exciting things, You know, we have a young and, and, and hungry and, you know, super hard working team.

Rocky · 56:23

And you know, we're, we're, we're excited about the future And hopefully I think that the industry continues to grow and everybody gets to take or everybody gets to reap the benefit of the growing industry to some extent or another.

Ryan · 56:38

That's awesome. Very exciting too. Exciting times. And gentlemen, thank you so much for coming on. We really appreciate your time. I'm very happy. I bumped into you at you again in Kyoto. It was almost didn't come up and say hello, but I was. Like I'm I'm.

Rocky · 56:55

Totally sure. No, it's, it's the second time that I think I've run into somebody there at, at Yugen. So shout out to Yugen in in, in Kyoto. Beautiful tea shop and you know, tea Ware store. Yeah, So, yeah. And, and thank you, Ryan, for for, for coming to, to the pop up in Paris as well.

Ryan · 57:16

Hopefully, yeah, hopefully we can, we can, you know, do this in, in, in person when you guys launch your product in, in, in, you know, the coming months or, you know, whenever, whenever it is. But wishing, wishing you guys the best of luck with, with all of that.

Rocky · 57:31

And you know, I'll be tuning in for, for more exciting episodes. Yeah. If there's anything else you know you guys need along the way, don't hesitate to to reach out. Thanks so much. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it of course.

Ryan · 57:44

Thank you so much for listening to our audience and if you enjoyed this, please consider sharing it with a friend and we'll see you in the future. Thanks. See you in the future.