Interview with Matcha Yu Tea, Erin (audio improved)

Ryan · 0:00

Hello and welcome to the Specialty Matcha Podcast. My name is Ryan. This is my co-founder Zongjun, who also goes by Sam. Hello, hello. And we're the cofounders of Sanko Matcha Products. Yeah. We launched this podcast to discuss our learning journey, matcha, share startup stories and interview experts. And today we have Erin joining us from Matcha U. Welcome, Erin. Hello, thanks for having me.

Ryan · 0:19

You're excited. Great to finally have you on, especially after having the chance to meet you in person in Kyoto. Yeah, wasn't that a wonderful day? I mean a little wet and we did try and have matcha at a famous temple, but we ended up still having a great day and enjoying some matcha together.

Zongjun · 0:38

Yeah, yeah, it was fun, rain and all. Yep. But it it was a really magical time in Kyoto because I feel like everyone was just like descending on the city, like a lot like everyone in matcha felt like was there for harvest season.

Erin · 0:52

Yeah, I agree. Yeah, Everyone you spoke to, you're like, oh, I know them or I've heard of them. And yeah, it's nice. And people, I guess, who work in the industry value that time and they know it's a really pivotal time to visit for various reasons.

Ryan · 1:08

Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome. Hopefully it happens again next year too. Yeah, I'm hoping to get back next day too. I have to admit though, because it is such a busy time for the tea world over there, it almost feels like maybe they don't have the time to host us, if you know what I mean.

Ryan · 1:28

So I was thinking maybe another time of the year would be also a great idea. Yeah, all the magic. All the magic happens in May. It'll be very different also without the mayflies. Exactly. Absolutely. So we'd love to learn more about your background and founding Matcha U, one of the most established players in the the matcha scene in Australia, going all the way back to 2017. Yeah, definitely Matcha U.

Erin · 1:58

There's a bit of a back story, but I'll try and keep it concise. So I love Japan growing up, probably from about the age of 10 to be honest, because I did a school project on Japan in primary school. But then when I entered high school, in the first year of high school, I was given the choice to study Japanese.

Erin · 2:14

So I took that and just went down a real rabbit hole with Japanese culture. The more I learned the language, the more I learned about the culture. I was just captivated and then really wanted to get to Japan as soon as I could. So in the my early 20s, I visited Japan actually to attend a music festival called Fuji Rock, which is held so-called in Fuji National Park.

Erin · 2:41

And it's, it's got, it's quite similar to Glastonbury in the lineup. However, it's, I think a fast and furious setting and it's just a lovely festival to visit. So I went there for three days with a friend and I also spent some time in Tokyo just walking the streets and and taking it all in and it was fantastic. So that was the first trip in 2003 and then I went back. I did go back the next year and then it was a pattern. About every two to three years I would go back for a holiday. And then it got to about 2010.

Erin · 3:17

And I really wanted to explore, you know, living in Japan, experiencing daily life. And so I applied for a working holiday visa and I lived in Kyoto between, yeah, 2010 and 2011, which was, I still pinch myself, I think how lucky was I especially to live in Kyoto at that time, because it is, you know, it wasn't the time of mass tourism or anything like that.

Erin · 3:45

So I felt very lucky to be riding my bike. So bike around the streets of Kyoto and, and discovering local life, visiting different temples and shrines. And yeah, it was a really special time. So what happened there was I was teaching English, as you do, a lady came in and she prepared matcha for me.

Erin · 4:05

She was a student, it was 1 to one lessons, and she prepared this matcha for me and explained that her father was an eighth generation tea farmer in Uji and he'd won awards from the emperor over 20 times for the quality of his matcha.

Ryan · 4:24

So I was just blown away by that. And the matcha, of course, was amazing. She was coming in to help with the family business for export, to learn English. And yeah, that was where the seed was planted. That's punning. That is some serious serendipity getting to meet someone from one of the Uji families. Yeah, it's so lucky.

Erin · 4:45

And then I do remember after that lesson, just walking out, like on the streets of it was a Karasuma, Shijo Karasuma in Kyoto when I felt something really special here. And I feel when I go back home to Australia, I need to kind of somehow tell her story and her family's story.

Ryan · 5:05

So it was a really pivotal moment. Yeah. And then I came back to Australia. I was actually going to open a matcha desserts cafe, like a parfait cafe. OK. You might have seen in Kyoto, there's so many parfait cafes and. The famous ones, Nana's Green Tea or something like that.

Erin · 5:23

Yeah, there's Nana's Green Tea. Yeah. Oh, Nana's Green Tea. So a concept similar to that. Yeah, that's it. And Uji, obviously, that's a famous, most of the major Japanese tea brands have like a cafe like that, you know, dessert cafe. So yeah, I really wanted to try that. I love that experience in Kyoto, like going with my friends to have parfait and a hot cup of hojicha with the with the dessert.

Erin · 5:55

But I actually was a bit, yeah, intimidated by starting a cafe in 2011. I felt like it was a bit too soon for the market and I had no hospitality experience, so it was going to be a big risk, like, you know, remortgaging my apartment, all this kind of thing.

Erin · 6:16

So I kind of shelved it. I went, no, I think it's not the wise like business decision right now. And then I went back to my job in music. I've worked in the music industry for a long time, but it was when I was in on maternity leave.

Erin · 6:29

I really thought about it seriously. I could see matcha was like gaining traction, but the quality wasn't great. So I thought I've got to give this a go and I ran a crowdfunding campaign to test the market and viability and then it was successful so I launched.

Ryan · 6:47

That's awesome. Yeah, and originally I did sell the Emperor award-winning tea. It wasn't cheap. I'm talking like up towards $800 a kilo Australia. OK, so I don't know what that is. You. It's over 500. Yeah. So said Tiffany.

Erin · 7:05

Like hand picked matcha, amazing. And I was just committed to support her family and give this tea an opportunity to be enjoyed in Australia. But I mean, so then price increases now I kind of think, oh, we'll compare to that.

Ryan · 7:24

It's not too bad. Let's say you know you've been in the tea game long enough when you start thinking, oh like 8 years ago, like the prices of all all, actually really all tea, you're like, whoa, I missed those days. Yeah, that's right. But yeah, so I I chose to stop importing that quite a few years ago because I did decide to move into more organic matcha. And that being from Uji, it wasn't, it was conventional matcha.

Erin · 7:53

So yeah, I kind of changed paths, but I still import her invention. The daughter of the Emperor award-winning tea farmer, she made this matcha shaker, which I think we talked about in Kyoto, and it's just a shaker with a special lid in it. The small plastic shakers.

Zongjun · 8:12

Similar. Yeah, it's more like a cylinder. It's about this big, but yeah, I still sell those. Which are her invention. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah, very. Cool. So wow. Sorry, Sam, I don't know if you were gonna say that's good. Oh, I was just gonna comment that that was like almost eight years ago. It's almost a decade of experience. Yeah, it's crazy how?

Zongjun · 8:35

Yeah. How have you seen like the landscape of, let's say, how people appreciate premium grade matcha? Was it different back then? Like how has people's preference changed over time? Yeah. Well, I do think just in the last year, I've noticed that people are getting more interested in the cultivars and the growing regions and, and, and different ways to describe the taste and the flavor profile, which I didn't really see before.

Erin · 9:07

I just think people weren't asking those questions. And even myself, like I I'm learning more about that side of things and realizing, yeah, different cultivars taste differently and, and different regions have different tastes as well. Yeah, I think there's just so much more yearning for knowledge about, yeah, exactly what how it's made and everything what what, what was really apparent to me. So I did a a large market here called Finders Keepers and I did it in October 2023.

Erin · 9:45

And almost every other person I had to explain what was matcha and how do you make it and what does it taste like and all of that. And now two years later, I barely have to answer any questions. No one. Everyone knows what it is.

Ryan · 10:03

They kind of know the tools. So that's just two years, Less than two years on, and I can already see the education has lifted, which is really cool. And it saves a lot of energy from us, you know? I have a question, how do you approach that? Because my biggest challenge when talking to people about matcha, like random people, like friends of friends or like family friends, you don't know where someone's at. Yeah, it's condescend a little.

Ryan · 10:30

I find it a little condescending to explain to someone what matcha is if they already like have deep preferences and they know what cultivars are. So like, how do you, when you have so many conversations, how do you like pinpoint where they're at and then kind of meet them there?

Erin · 10:44

It's something that I struggle quite a bit talking with, you know, like in like random daily encounters with with this type of thing. Oh yeah, probably just to let's see where their question leads you, I guess. So if they like some people do still say what is matcha and that that's a bit of a reality check for me.

Erin · 11:07

And I think, oh, wow, OK, so there is part of the market that still just doesn't have any idea, but they're interested. So that's great. And then I think the the opportunity is there and the challenge to not give them too much information to overwhelm, but to make it welcoming and something that they feel just not intimidated by.

Erin · 11:30

Yeah, I guess you just get the certain questions not that many people ask, but some do about what areas it comes from. Is it first harvest, first flush? What's the difference between like what is what is a ceremonial grade and what is a kind of everyday grade?

Erin · 11:47

And yeah, you just, I think I've learned, I used to give so much information to people just asking a couple of questions and it could be quite, yeah, a bit overwhelming. So I just try to scale it back a bit. But yeah, there's so much knowledge, like certain levels of knowledge out there, right? So you don't want to be, yeah, snobby about it. But yeah, I know what you mean.

Erin · 12:12

It's hard when someone says what is matcha, like, really? Because you're just in this matcha bubble all the time. Like, are you kidding? You do not have any idea what it is. Wow. But that's exciting. I see that really, like, as a challenge and and I'm like, great.

Erin · 12:27

This is like, and, and especially when I have a market and I sample the tea and it's the first time people try matcha, I feel so honored about that. Like, I think, wow, like I'm your first experience. This is so cool. How do you get the immediate feedback so it's like. Yeah.

Erin · 12:46

It's like it's a cool, like full circle kind of. Yeah, I've realized those markets are so great for sampling because when you have an online, primarily e-commerce business, you can describe things all you want. You can put photos and videos all you want, but you can never express the taste. You can never convey that on a website. So to have people try it in person, I think even if they don't buy it on the day, they can keep that in their memory bank and think, OK, I know what that tastes like. I'll go and order it, you know.

Zongjun · 13:18

Yeah, the first hand experience is super important. We recently learned something very interesting from industry friend telling us that, you know, this is actually how the chashis remember the taste of each matcha. They don't necessarily have the vocabularies to describe the tea, but they have the memories of like, oh, that tastes like that tea or that tastes like that cultivar.

Zongjun · 13:45

But none necessarily have this like this deconstruct framework to describe the flavors which which was very interesting to learn about. That would be such AI know, you mentioned on the podcast before such an interesting world to dive into the secret chashi world because yeah, how do they keep a blend consistent from year to year?

Zongjun · 14:06

Is it like a recipe when that when you make a cake, is it like 2 kilos of this, a kilo of that? You know, like how does that all work to become a blend? Because a lot of like obviously teas are blended. The consistency, yeah, it's, it's a very specialist area. Yes, I'm so curious too.

Zongjun · 14:25

It would be a dream if we can get a chashi on the podcast one day. I'm. Sure you will. I'm sure you will try. A whole season, yeah, that'd be good. Get a couple different ones, different levels. I think it goes through. They're called like dans, right? Or dans, I don't know how to say it, the belts or whatever. It's like one through 10 or something Done, Yeah. Have you met anyone?

Erin · 14:49

Have you met anyone in Japan? Chashis. Not. That not that you know of we. Knew of at the time at least, so maybe we have, but we didn't know if we did. Yeah, they don't reveal their true identity. But we've talked to enough people now that worked with them.

Ryan · 15:07

I'd say we've talked to five people that have had like direct encounters. So we're slowly learning, but it's a little indirect. Yeah, yeah. You're doing well. Yep. So Australia's pretty interesting because it probably, and I hope this isn't too controversial with our what international audience Australia like has one of the most sophisticated coffee cultures in the world, from what I understand. Like you guys have really taken the lead and even like I moved to New York in 2016, all of the best cafes or all Australian run.

Ryan · 15:42

It was like nothing, right? And they had Australian owners and like they had amazing coffee programs, they had fantastic food and they just created this vibe, right? Like, and before that, I feel like New York only had like this brunch vibe and like all of a sudden had this very sophisticated Australian cafe culture, which I've also experienced, you know, travelling to the Middle East.

Ryan · 16:06

I feel like there are a lot of them. I've heard like they basically own Bali, but it's like a really a big cultural export. And I know that Melbourne is like one of the centers of that. So such a rich coffee culture. How have you seen them embrace matcha as a product and how is it represented over there? And where has it been really good and really bad? Like what?

Erin · 16:28

What's the spectrum look like? Good question. I was going to add as well. I think in Tokyo there's quite a few Melbourne owned coffee shops from from what I've heard. So I don't drink coffee. I did, I used to drink it many, many years ago. But I am quite caffeine sensitive so much as good coffee, too much.

Erin · 16:46

But I'll try and answer it as best I can from observing and having people like friends that enjoy coffee. Yeah, it's a really strong coffee culture here, particularly because there's a very big Italian demographic from like afterward to World War 2, a lot of Italians and other European cultures, but migrated here and set up in Melbourne.

Erin · 17:09

So there's that part of the like the coffee culture is there, you know, for espresso and like really authentic hardcore coffee. And then there's a whole other bunch of like coffee roasters that are excellent. They yeah, it's it's just some of them are chains, but some of them are just individual run, individually run.

Erin · 17:36

They as far as matcha goes, I think they have shield away from it for the most part until recently. So probably in the last 12 months or so, I think super recent. OK, I think so from customer demand they have now looked at considering matcha or look the matcha that they were using a lot of those coffee shops because coffee was their hero product.

Erin · 18:05

The matcha would be to be honest, yeah, like either pre sugared or they would yeah, most for the most part, it would be like a sugar matcha mix that people would be using, you know, and making it too Milky and all that kind of thing.

Erin · 18:19

But now I think because customer demand is there for the high quality matcha, they they're taking it more seriously. And I do service like my product to cafes and I have noticed a lot more coffee shops ordering it and like mine is quite premium priced. But so that means, you know, they're obviously value valuing the quality.

18:39

There are some still, like, coffee chains that are doing the cheap varieties. But look, maybe that's serving their customers just fine. Even like McDonald's has released an iced strawberry matcha. Yeah, here in Melbourne. Just not, not across the board, like in limited stores. And it's really interesting because they dropped that release right around like the middle of the end of last year's harvest and this year's halves.

19:03

I'm like, where are they getting that matcha? But I think it's like Starbucks. It's quite sweet, sugary, but it's serving a particular customer. Probably not from Japan. Yeah, but I always used to think about that perform Matcha had the boom.

19:19

How will Matcha penetrate this really strong coffee culture in Melbourne? But I think it just walks kind of alongside it. It doesn't overtake it. I think quite often it's totally different types of customers. And what I've been noticing is there's so many Asian run cafes popping up in Melbourne. Every time I open Instagram there's a new one. And they're the ones that have driven a really change in the quality of matcha and what, you know, people expect because they're kind of replicating what you get in Japan, really that kind of experience.

19:59

Yeah, I hope that very. Interesting. How is the preparation scene? Do you see most people like whisking it? Are they preparing those like concentrate syrup things or like what's the the? Blender. Yeah, that went viral. There's a cafe. You should check it on an Instagram sneaker lab in Sydney. Or the one that shocks it in the. Yeah, I think.

20:20

I see it. Yeah, I saw just a new video showing a blind taste test and there's we did like a staff panel and their entire staff preferred the blended matcha. I saw that was a very. Compelling video, actually. It was very, very controversial that video.

20:38

People would just say it, yeah, like, bewildered by it. So mostly the Japanese cafes and other Asian run cafes are whisking to order. OK. But there are others that are doing batch, batch making and they'll make the match in the morning with maybe a bit of sugar syrup or something and then they'll add it into the latte. I guess it depends on their turnover, how many they need to service.

21:04

But I think the customers are OK, are prepared to wait for a freshly whisked matcha. There is a cafe that's open that has I think about 5 ishi-usu in their store in Melbourne. Yeah. You posted about it. Yeah, Matcha Cobalt. Yeah.

21:20

And they they've got a whole production line, but it's all handmade. And yeah, it's really cool. That's awesome, Super cool actually. I've never thought about this but I'll ask it because it just popped into my head. Why do they pre sweeten the batch brewed concentrates? Is it for stability reasons?

21:39

Like maybe it suspends better because it makes it more like thick and viscous? Or is it just to save time adding sweetener? Is it a taste thing? I've actually always wondered why they always add sugar. Yeah, I should ask that question because my guess is it prevents it to oxidize as quickly may perhaps than just putting it in water. It could be time saving too.

22:03

Yeah, instead of having to add it in later, maybe it's like a bit of taste control. So they kind of get a flavor that they are happy with for that concentrate and then they're adding the milk in to create like a consistent flavor. It's a really good question, Laurie. Yeah, it's.

22:22

Could be for optimization of suspension quality. Because after you add sugar, right, the liquid turns more viscous. Yeah. So the suspension is probably better. Yeah, I think I would always be concerned about oxidize, oxidizing the matcha by pre pre making it, if you know what I mean. But yeah, there must be reasoning. I wonder if they do the same sugar content as those pump syrups is then it's like a really easily swappable ingredient with recipes and stuff like you know, when they put in a pump or two of something like and then it's like all kind the universe of like understanding like how sweeteners are being introduced

23:05

into the beverages. Yeah. That's just an idea, but. I guess to like speaking about that, putting the sugar in the concentrate, I mean that removes the option for the customer to say I don't want sugar, you know? Yeah. So I think, yeah, that from that perspective, it's probably a better idea to just whisk to order.

23:25

But we all know that that's a a bit of a challenge in itself when you've got serious volume coming through, no? Absolutely. Do we use Asahi or uji hikari? For this matcha latte, yeah. It's not way back into that controversy 0. No.

23:41

I was scrolling through Instagram, I forget who it was, but someone finally did it. They bought a can of Suji San's competition, I think it was their competition Asahi cultivar and made a Gelato which I was like wow that's bold.

23:57

That's like it's one expensive much of Gelato. Yeah, I bet it tastes amazing fine dining there. Yeah, it's like, oh, I don't know how I feel about that. But you know, if given the opportunity, I would like to taste it. That's right.

24:14

Yeah. I mean, I'm guilty of it too. Like I drink my really high end matcha, you know, from Kagoshima first flush, like really award-winning, amazing. And I put it in a latte sometimes because it tastes great. Yeah, it tastes good.

24:31

Very. Simple, actually. Like, when it comes to this sort of thing, this controversy, I find a little silly because, like, yeah, that's good. Yeah, like sometimes I'll drink it straight up, but sometimes I, I just feel like, oh, I'd like a really high quality matcha.

24:48

Yeah, a matcha latte. Yeah, it's good in ice too. I find that those high quality matcha really shine in an ice format. Yeah, yeah, I guess it just changes the flavor again, doesn't it? When you when you have hot or cold, it's totally different.

25:05

Yeah, Express is different thing. I know in Thailand MTCH everything by default on the menu except for their Usucha menu is all on ice and it's all single origin single cultivar stuff on ice. As I've moved through the menu over the many times I've been there, it is a very different experience than drinking it hot.

25:26

It expresses very different flavors and it you're right, it's and it's equally delicious. Yes, yeah. I find it generally more savory because they do like cold temperature extraction or even ice extraction for like gyokuro. And that's like a thing in Japan too. And yeah, I agree, it tastes very different. Yeah, even the difference in water temperature, like sometimes I do 70°C, sometimes I do 80°C. I'm not sure what the equivalent is in Fahrenheit, but that is a difference, the 10° difference.

26:04

It's you do notice a flavor difference. You know, I tend to go, I tend to go more with 70. I think a lower temperature brings out a bit more flavor. But yeah, each each to their own, you know? Yeah, absolutely. So your sourcing trip was pretty epic. I think you went to Fukuoka and you went to Shizuoka, right? And then?

26:27

Yes, I ended up not getting to Shizuoka, unfortunately. So what I was saying earlier, my contact there just off the back of Golden Week, he was slammed like and he felt really bad, but he said, I really don't think I can accommodate your visit right now, which is a shame and I was disappointed.

26:50

But that's the thing with this period, I guess you have to respect their workload and it's all good and welfare like we are customers like we're buying volume from them. And but I don't think that gives us the right to just force our ways into their world when it they're at peak capacity and they're dealing with this shortage and the harvest.

27:13

So I really had to think about it. OK, take the ego out of it, Erin. And just not ego, but like, my desire to be there and film content and connect. I had to really go. No, actually, they're under a lot of stress right now.

27:28

I have to respect that. And at the end of the day, our supply chain is still secure. It's all good. So I did. Yeah, I did go to Fukuoka. I went to Yame, which is where the tea headquarters is. I attended a shincha festival which was lovely and as you know I was travelling with my 8 year old daughter so it just made the best of the time we had. She came into the matcha factory with me and. So cool.

Erin · 27:53

Put the white, you know, uniform and shower cap on it was it was really nice to be able to show her and I felt very grateful to the tea business to allow a child to come in as well, you know, very accommodating family run business.

Erin · 28:08

So that's that obviously makes makes sense. And yeah, like that, that was the third time. No, no, the second sorry, second time I've been in Yame. But yeah, I've been doing business with this company for five years now. So it's lovely Yeah, to have a very solid relationship and I know it's it's very reliable.

Erin · 28:31

So I think last year I ordered over half a ton of matcha with them. Wild, like when they told me that because, you know, you order like 40 kilos, 50 kilos and then it all adds up and you think what, half a ton? It's crazy. So I, I really like they're part of the success of my business. So I couldn't do it without them. You know, I really, and I think it's so valuable to, to be there in person and show your dedication to the relationship. Very Japanese kind of culture, you know, I think that speaks volumes to, to go and make that effort. Yeah.

Erin · 29:10

No, absolutely. Have you been sourcing from Yame in the very beginning of Matcha you? No, yeah, recently. So when I was deciding to move towards organic matcha, then I, I think they actually approached me. Yeah. And they sent sometimes, you know, you get them reaching out and they are offered to send samples.

Erin · 29:32

So I'm like, sure, let's do it. And the the samples were great and I thought I'll just try. I actually went back to my emails recently of that time and I was ordering, this is quite cute. I was ordering like 3 kilos of matcha. You know, I'll just commit to three now. And now it's like 50.

Erin · 29:53

It's a bit different. Yeah. But yeah, so their tea, the tea I was sourcing, so it was, it actually came from Kagoshima and I went there a couple of years ago in Kagoshima and visited the farms and then it comes back to Yame to get refined and ground.

Erin · 30:14

So yeah, I have been like Kagoshima matcha has been my main sourcing area for years now. I've just made a decision to source from Yame. So I'm going to have some Yame matcha now which is cool. Yeah, but it won't be organic. I've had to go, which is fine.

Erin · 30:34

I had to choose conventional because and I respect all the price increases. I understand why they are what they are. But yeah, it's the organic unfortunate has become a bit cost prohibitive, prohibitive for my kind of main selling tea. That makes sense.

Erin · 30:54

I've heard that because they can't harvest twice. I think most of the organic farms in Kagoshima, it's all first flush mostly isn't it? Yeah, that's true. You. Can't use as much fertilizer because it's. Yes. You can't use pesticides. That's right.

Erin · 31:09

Yeah. And I think, yeah, obviously the tea auctions this year, you know, the price of tencha's blown out. And I think with the Yame matcha that I'm going to be bringing in the tea company I source that from, they have a bit more control with the pricing on that because it's coming from their farm and the local area. So they're not having to worry about the bidding at auction and all that kind of thing for that, for the organic matcha. And thankfully we're not super strict here in Australia like I believe Europe is quite challenging if you want to bring in non organic matcha.

Ryan · 31:43

Is that the case, Ryan? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I've heard. It's it's not easy the EU regulations, but I've also heard that it's a bit more complex and that the they're conservative in what they kind of screen out, but they apparently haven't done very much research or investigated how safe certain things are that are, you know, in non organic products, because tea is not an important commodity for the EU because they're not a producer.

Ryan · 32:12

So I've heard some criticism of the EU, but they don't they haven't put in the effort to make a real decision. So they're just saying no to a bunch of stuff, which is probably safe. But that's that's what I've heard. Yeah.

Erin · 32:25

So it'll be interesting to see how the price pricing will impact Europe because of typically from what I can see organic matcha is priced higher. Yeah. So I'm apologies. I know that's where you are it. Makes. It hard and then and then I feel for like American tea businesses because of the tariffs.

Erin · 32:46

I think, wow, I mean. Oh yeah, you know. We have to deal with price increases, but the US have to deal with the tariffs on top of that. And I just wonder, like, how are the businesses going to keep viable with these increases? Yeah.

Erin · 33:04

It's really challenging as a consumer. I'm grateful for direct, direct to consumer companies where I can like personally order direct from Japan, but you know, but even that's like ultra expensive. So all these local players who've built up the market and played into all the success and all this demand for matcha now have like some really challenging decisions to make on price and quality. And yeah.

Erin · 33:31

Yeah. And I guess that's a part of the concern of a lot of farmers in Japan, like the kind of deal this hype being kind of not going to last for a longer period of time, so. Yeah. We will see. I think, yeah, the demands always going to be there, but it just will become more of a luxury product because with the price increases, like, yeah, not everyone's going to be in that, you know, price range where they can afford it. Yeah.

Erin · 34:04

So it almost becomes a tea of privilege or something. But I hope not, like. And also I think about areas like parts of Asia where the the living, you know, the wages are a lot less. How are those people? Are they able to enjoy high quality matcha?

Erin · 34:21

I hope they still can. Like I hope we all can. It's. It's a hard, I was talking with someone recently who was just kind of beginning their matcha journey and was thinking about opening a business and they were really trying to think through like first principles, like how do we make matcha more accessible?

Erin · 34:41

Like at a price point that like it could be someone's daily drink. And like, I was trying to, I was actually really struggling to figure out like what are all of the contributing factors and like, how can like people like manage through them to bring a, a high quality product into the future? I think right now you can probably for the next few years, but I hope that Japan really can increase the volume so that it doesn't just become something that's, you know, kind of like what it was 150 years ago, something that you had to have a lot of money and put in a lot of effort to to buy and to consume. Yeah, it's so, I know.

Erin · 35:20

It's so wonderful that it's become accessible and like, what if you think about the health benefits side of things? Like I love nothing more than my hearing a lot of particularly teenage girls, probably driven by TikTok have instead of starting their journey with coffee.

Erin · 35:37

Like I think back when I was younger, like that's when you started exploring coffee and you're studying for exams and all of that kind of thing. Teenage daughters, girls are turning to matcha and they're not really entertaining coffee.

Erin · 35:51

And I think from a health perspective, that is so great because it's so much more gentler on your body. Yeah. For your nervous system and your hormone balancing and especially for women, and I think, yeah. And the caffeine is that slow, beautiful release.

Erin · 36:09

It's not going to get you really feeling hectic before your exam and anxious and I think that's really wonderful that the new the new generation has had access to matcha for their health as well, you know. Wow, that's so powerful.

Zongjun · 36:24

I never connected the dots that way because that's where, excuse me, that's where preferences are formed. Like right in these adolescent years when you're just beginning to like get past your childhood phase of not consuming much caffeine. And then like, you know, you're studying, you're pulling all nighters, you're partying, whatever, like you need some caffeine and you're entering adulthood and there's a whole new generation that's building.

Zongjun · 36:49

You know, I, I really dislike this Condon con. I can't say condescension of these people like talking about matcha girlys on TikTok and buying all of this stuff because it it's exactly. I've never thought about it that way until you said it. It's just a whole new generation doing it their way and having it become part of their life and it is much healthier than coffee. And like, I don't think this matcha trend is transient. I think we are in the very seed stages of what could be in like a gigantic wave of matcha if the supply can keep up at a reasonable price.

Erin · 37:27

I I agree, yeah. And they're the biggest like not talking about social media influence, but teenage girls particularly and guys, they're the biggest influence on their parents, like on what they purchase. So they're, you know, like they're all getting in in their parents ear going. And I have so many, as I said, like going to doing these major markets.

Erin · 37:49

I have so many mothers come up and they say my daughter keeps telling me to get into matcha and I need to, you know, try this. And and all the daughters, like pushing the mother to the front of the stall. Try this, mom. So I can see it already.

Erin · 38:04

I can see it happening. And often the moms or the dads, they're the ones handing out their wallet and their cards to buy the matcha. It's really nice. Yeah. Making it at home, the ritual with their family. And I love it.

Zongjun · 38:17

You know, this is really a new culture, like the entire generation, like, you know, living in this reality, which is going to be the new norm, right? Like it's no longer a hype anymore. And isn't it interesting how sorry that the it's being driven by the youth globally, but not so much in Japan? The global youth in Japan are right into coffee culture because it's kind of come from the West, you know, and it's almost the opposite has happened outside of Japan. Yeah, yeah, it's it's the same thing in Asia. Like we've seen it in Korea, in China, in Taiwan, like all the young people here, they're like

Zongjun · 38:59

all into coffee. And outside of Asia, everyone is into tea. Like it's like we switch spot. Yeah, have you even heard? In Japan, they feel like the matcha boom is similar to what happened with bubble tea, and they think it'll go away. And I think what, Really.

Ryan · 39:15

You're crazy. I don't think it's the same. It's not. No, because I remember there's a big discussion 10 years ago about all of these sugary drinks for Starbucks that they were making the refreshers, they were making pumpkin spice lattes. And I remember watching just some generic nighttime news clip of like someone in old school media saying that what they're really doing, it's a marketing strategy, get a bunch of young people to basically present coffee in a dessert format and then kind of lure them in.

Ryan · 39:47

And then they become the next generation of coffee consumers. And they did such a good job of like taking a very adult beverage, meaning like coffee. And you know, it's bitter. Like like 20-30 years ago it was bitter. It was dark. And like, you probably like, it probably took a while to acquire the preference to like it and make it so easy to approach for a new generation of people.

Erin · 40:11

And matcha is going through a very similar journey. And it's such, I never thought it's such a healthier relationship. And the functional benefits, people want a better for you product. People want, you know, that sustainable caffeine boost when you're pulling all nighters, you know, trying to study or, or that type of thing. Yeah, the amount of the feedback I get, just, it makes me feel so happy that people are benefiting just like I do from drinking it. Just all the different things they tell me their hair is glossy, their skin's glowing.

Erin · 40:45

They can, they can sleep better, they can concentrate, they're more productive, all the things and it just, it just makes me, yeah, just so happy. It's it's great that people feel that way because for a lot of people coffee does not make you feel that way. It.

Ryan · 41:04

Tastes great. I'm not dissing coffee for the reaction. The reaction on the body is quite different, yeah. I went to a coffee conference a couple of years ago and I think it was some doctor nutritionist, I forget what their background was, but they presented a study on how we metabolize and digest caffeine and I was shocked.

Ryan · 41:23

The slowest caffeine metabolizers are four times slower than the fastest. So there's huge variance, just, like, genetically about our ability to handle caffeine and how it affects us. And like, coffee is probably too much, too fast for like, yeah, they're like 2030% of the population. Yeah, I thankfully am on the fast caffeine metabolizer side. And it's important when you work in matcha, you need to do a lot of tasting.

Ryan · 41:56

Yeah. But I certainly understand the like the effect. I mean, I've been over caffeinated. It's like really unpleasant and like it gives people a whole new option. Like that's those are not small percentages either. Like you walk on down the street, you know, it's like, you know what, probably 10 people of the people you encounter in one minute. Like it's it's an underserved market who want need a different caffeine profile than coffee.

Zongjun · 42:23

Has to offer exactly yeah, yeah, it's great to have the the options now and and just yeah, just everyone discovering yet something that's going to benefit them for the long term really. Yeah, yeah. Ryan, out of my curiosity, So when you source tea, what, what do you care about? Like, you obviously people care about the flavor, care about the price.

Ryan · 42:52

Like like also do you like, would you like try the samples and would you like think to yourself, oh wow, I feel good after drinking this tea and would that be wonderful consideration too? Yeah, so I guess the two, I, I sell just two varieties of matcha, an everyday matcha and a premium matcha so that every day it's tended to be a little bit more astringent, a little bit of bitterness in there.

Ryan · 43:17

But it will it's it's fine to drink on its own. Like it's still quite delicious, but it's, it really shines in a latte. Like it's not going to be lost. And that's the main purpose for that matcha. The premium matcha, it's more of a, you know, ceremonial grade, even though that term is a little controversial.

Ryan · 43:37

But it's more of a smoother, delicate taste. So very, very minimal bitterness, probably more umami and embedded to drink just with water to really appreciate it. It's a single origin, whereas the everyday matcha is a blend.

Ryan · 43:53

So it's quite. Yeah. So one I have that has that a little bit of bitter astringency and the other is more of a smoother flavor. And I think that kind of caters to most people that buy from me. So yeah, taste is key. Like things that I have a preference for. I like both of those things.

Ryan · 44:13

If I had to pick, I'd probably go more of a smooth type of matcha. But I also understand that gets lost in a matcha latte. So you do need a little a little bit of kick there. Yeah. And then so taste price obviously, but it's not a super strong consideration. It's more the taste and I will pay, I see the value in it. I will pay for what I perceive to be high quality. And and then it comes down to, yeah, the people, the relationships, the kind of heritage and history of the places I source from.

Ryan · 44:50

I mean, to that point, I get a lot of people are talking about transparency this at the moment and telling people where they, I think the regions are really important and the cultivars and that kind of information. But it's also a bit tricky being a business owner. So I could just say right now, Oh yeah, I get my tea from insert, insert business name insert, you know, and I kind of still feel a bit protective and guarded over that because yeah, sure, like people can find the same company and source from the same company and repackage it differently. But I feel like I've put in the time and effort to establish those relationships.

Erin · 45:29

And if they do that of their own accord, that's so fine. But if they're just going to kind of take that information from me and replicate, that's a little bit how hard to swallow, you know? Yeah, I totally understand. I'm really torn. I'm really torn with that because I do think like shining the light on farmers and farmers, particular tea farms and families.

Erin · 45:51

That is amazing. And I love that tea businesses do that. But yeah, I wonder, do they have that concern about copycats? I don't know. Yeah, I think the ones that have shared do get copycatted. I mean the concern is real. I mean, it is for everyone who does. Like, it's even like visiting.

Zongjun · 46:12

I mean, that's how we have found a lot of people to talk to. I actually have a list of where I discovered a farmer and then everyone who I know sources from them and like all like publicly available information. You poke around on the web enough. Yeah, yeah.

Erin · 46:28

Pattern match and it's, it's, and I think it's like what everyone's doing because if you don't speak Japanese, it's the only thing you can do. So it's, I think it's like totally understandable. Yeah, yeah, even like I'll give an example. Back in 2019, I when I was still sourcing from Uji, the Imperial Award-winning tea farm in Uji. And I interviewed the farmer and I went to the tea farm and met the workers and everything.

Erin · 46:57

And I think I in the YouTube video comment, I listed the name of the tea farm. And then just recently I caught up with the, the daughter in my last trip and she said something to me because I said, if I've got time, perhaps I could come along to the tea farm if that suits.

Erin · 47:14

But she said they've received so many requests over the last few years and they've actually, they've actually turned down people to visit the farm. It's just, it doesn't work for them. And in the back of my mind I was thinking, oh, I hope it's not. I know it may not be, but I'm like, I hope it wasn't that YouTube video that I listed the I get heaps of people emailing me most like maybe once a month or so. Can you give me the name of that tea farm so I can go visit because the videos are still online, you know, so I don't want to cause any problems.

Ryan · 47:45

But yeah, just it just, you've got to think they, they, they're fielding a lot of inquiries now. So it must be really challenging to be over there and having to make a decision about do we let these people in, Do we form a relationship with them or do we just say, no, we're at capacity, which is usually what I'm hearing. It's at capacity.

Erin · 48:09

We can't take on any more customers, you know. Yeah, that's what we keep hearing too, although we're we're not as established. So for us, we're at like the bottom of the pecking order, but no. Yeah, some. Sometimes we just don't hear.

Erin · 48:22

Sometimes we just don't hear anything, you know, Not even a no. I know is actually nice. Then again, you OK? I'll stop emailing you. Yeah, but I think it's really, it's great like Sanjun that, you know, Japanese. I think that's amazing.

Erin · 48:38

It's amazing advantage and a really, it goes a long way for those, even if it's a basic level conversation, it doesn't matter if you've made the effort, they really respect that. So I think if you take the time to learn about the culture, you're more, the doors are going to open easier, you know? Absolutely.

Ryan · 48:58

We did end up finding, you know, like sending emails and messages at the nice language. Well, you know, we've got a much better response rate there. You go less energy and effort required. Replying back in Japanese. Yeah, yeah. Must be a great gift for your sourcing too, because you speak, you speak Japanese.

Erin · 49:18

So it's, yeah, really a huge barrier like in sourcing, like for us, I mean, that's the tricky part. Like we're, I'm grateful Sam has some. But like from what I understand, like you're like, you're fluent. Oh no, OK, that means like fluent.

Zongjun · 49:35

No, I'm not fluent, but enough, enough to get conversations. And I think look, this is the thing with larger tea businesses in Japan and the two I deal with, one guy's American and one guy's French. So they're the people they're putting in charge of their export division.

Erin · 49:51

So there's no issues there. But I think when you visit the tea farms and you can communicate with the farmers, like when you visit, particularly as a woman too, like I'm going into these very male dominant industries. And if I can converse with them in Japanese, I think it does again, open a dialogue and there's effort there.

Erin · 50:13

And even if I make mistakes, it's OK. It just really goes a long way. And and I love that. I love learning and and listening to their stories. So yeah, that would be my tip for anyone starting go Start learning Japanese. It's a great language I love.

Ryan · 50:28

It I'm so intimidated it seems so complicated. I got people have lost me at 3 alphabets like no fine it's hard enough. True. Well, you're learning French, so that's incredible as well. Yeah. At least it's in the Roman alphabet. It's a different set of complexities. Now I have to learn what the gender of like a refrigerator is.

Erin · 50:48

Exactly. So we're approaching time. I think we covered almost everything. We did, yeah. I think what you're doing like about with your milling machine is incredible. And I'm deeply interested because I've been thinking about it lately. Yeah, for about the last month, I've been out of stock pretty much like on my main matcha.

Erin · 51:11

And I understand why. Like it's the end so late into the last harvest April, basically the two suppliers said that's it, we're done and you have to wait for the new harvest tea. So I'm like, OK, cool. I ordered what I could, but then, then that was it.

Erin · 51:34

So I've had to wait and it's kind of been out of my hands. I had to be patient with that. I had to respect that this is nature and this is, you know, to produce a first harvest tea, there's no short cutting it. You have to just wait.

Erin · 51:50

But as a business owner, I mean, that's cost me a lot of income not having that much in stock. Thankfully, I have very loyal customers and once it comes back into stock, it will be all fine. But talk like talking about your milling machine gives me a lot of hope because that's almost like a reserve, a backup option.

Erin · 52:10

And and I don't want it to just be that I'd love to, you know, mill tencha on it all year round. But this particular situation that I've just gone through with not having much of for over a month, I'm like, imagine if I had my own machine and I could be milling and just plugging the gaps and, and having that a little bit more in control. I was talking to my accountant recently and I was telling her about the situation.

Erin · 52:34

She said, you really have to think about some risk management solutions here. And I'm like, I know from a business perspective, yes, I didn't think about second harvest matcha. And I'm like, no, I don't want to do that. Or like sourcing it from another country. And I'm like, it's going to be always Japanese. But I get your point.

Erin · 52:52

But yeah, things like this milling machine gives me like, that hope, like maybe that's a way of mitigating risk, you know, right to, Yeah, help when the supply dries up at the end of the harvest, things like that, you know?

Zongjun · 53:06

Yeah, though I think that could give people a lot more options because I know some of the real bottlenecks are just milling, though. It's yeah. We're excited to also see like more matcha being milled fresh and those are new edges where consumers are AT and.

Zongjun · 53:21

It just. Can also like put in people to the process and the effort. Like when you literally see matcha being milled at 40 grams per hour or 50 grams per hour in our machine you can get up to 80 but you can go down to 40 and it does increase the quality. People just seeing wow like creating good matcha takes time. Yeah.

Ryan · 53:43

Seeing is believing and like showing, not telling and having that not be so abstracted far away but closer to where the consumer is at I think. Yeah, like. Also like how people like modulate their consumption too because you see how like this is like how much time it takes to make really good matcha. Exactly.

Erin · 54:04

And what are like almost not a world first, but it will change the market so much because then it becomes about purchasing tencha and and then blending options and how that affects pricing. Like you would assume that buying tencha is going to be at a more affordable price than matcha because it's not the finished product.

Zongjun · 54:26

So it might open up a lot of more accessibility and bring pricing down a bit too, you know? Yeah. We hope so. Yeah. Yeah, it's the Wild West, though, like trying to ask for tencha at the moment. So like a really weird request. Like every time, like we ask people, they're like, OK, we have to ask, but maybe.

Erin · 54:46

Purchase them tencha. Yeah, I mean, I've thought about it lately and once I've gotten out of this kind of shortage part, whether I should ask my suppliers now, what's the likelihood of like purchasing tencha? Might need it down the track, yeah.

Ryan · 55:01

No, it's exciting Changes, yeah. Which is? Yeah, no. Problem. All right, awesome. So as one last question, what are some changes you'd like to see sort of the industry wide level as we navigate these matcha shortages, as we get new consumers entering the fold and as this whole landscape kind of evolves and changes? And since like your first sip of tea in Kyoto meeting this, you know, someone part of a Uji, you know, historic Uji family all the way through now, how do you have you taken those experiences that you've had and like project that onto the future of in future you'd like to see I.

Erin · 55:41

Think for me it comes down to a deep respect for the Japanese culture, where I know that matcha. It was originally kind of China, but then a lot of it's part entwined into the history of Japan. And I don't want people to.

Erin · 55:57

Yeah. And I don't want people to forget that. And I think you don't have to do like a deep dive into Japanese history or anything, but it is a a link to the culture. So, you know, people who visit Japan and come back and drink the matcha, if they say to me, oh, it makes me feel like I'm back in Japan or it tastes like it did in Japan and that that is like my job done.

Erin · 56:20

I, I want to give people the taste of Japan in a cup. That is my like, tagline. But yeah, about it does. I just think I, I couldn't imagine selling matcha without that aspect. And plenty of brands do like the And that, like everyone has their own USP and their own values. Some people just want to sell it as like a health and Wellness product and like, pop it into kind of a supplement or a blend. And that works for them and their customers. I just don't want it to lose the magic, you know? And there is so much, yeah, so much magic and preciousness about this tea and all the effort. You know, when you go and visit

Erin · 57:01

Japan and you see behind the scenes the tea farm and the the hot weather and you you did the tea picking. So you know how hard it back breaking it is. And then it goes into the facility for steaming and air drying and milling and and you just think like that can't be disrespected and it needs to be valued.

Erin · 57:22

I think we all carry a responsibility to to represent these people that are working so hard and not make it such AI don't know like a consumable that you don't give any thought to. And then like it's about forming that ritual as well and slowing down and and when you drink that matcha, it can take you to a place.

Erin · 57:45

It can transport you by that taste and smell and it creates a moment for you, but it also gives you a chance to really reflect on how lucky you are to drink this tea and how magical. Don't you find it magical? Like actually I had a moment when 2023 when I went down way down South in Kyushu to Kagoshima, to the tea farm. And I actually sat there and prepared the matcha at the tea fields, just on the grass, like no fancy setup or anything. And I remember saying to the tea farmers and there I said, this moment is so special and emotional for me because I'm drinking the tea that is growing here like behind me. And I live in Australia.

Erin · 58:31

So this is like I just couldn't even, it was blowing my mind how special that was to be able to drink the tea from that field right there and then, you know. Yeah. So in summary, I think, yeah, it just, it just needs this precious magical gift that we all have.

Zongjun · 58:49

We need to really give it a lot of respect and care. Yeah, there's like few things. Your thing really inspired this thought. There's like few things in food and beverage or that we consume where you can be that connected to some like really deep historical legacy in a way that you can feel and you meet the people and you see the process.

Zongjun · 59:13

And that process has been so well documented through tea ceremony for so long, and it's been so respected and thoughtful for so long. There's just like very few things that we can encounter at least that are good for us.

Erin · 59:28

Like maybe you could say like some other things about alcohol or like, I don't know, tobacco, like has some really ancient traditions too. But like, for something that's so good for you, that has this really deep historical and cultural connection, I can't actually think of that many other things where you tapped into something greater than yourself. Yeah, it's almost spiritual, especially if you're like with matcha, you consume the entire leaf. So yeah, you're not like discarding that leaf. It's you are consuming the all my goodness and, and all the hard work and yeah, yeah, it's, it's insane. Please.

Zongjun · 1:00:13

Yeah, when you read, when we read about all those, you know, ancient literatures from, you know, not only Japan but so China, people describing how they feel about drinking matcha and you feel the same way. It's like, you know, beyond a resonance or echoing of language, right?

Erin · 1:00:34

It's sensational too, something really magical. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just all that. Yeah. The skill, the multi generational thing is wild as well. Like because of the year this tea farm is in the same family. And yeah. And they learn from each other and it becomes a community like the tea workers that come in and they, they're like treated like family because they're there every year and they're in their 80s and they love it.

Erin · 1:01:01

Yeah. I'm actually reading the book of my friend, her father. Her father wrote a book, and he's since passed away, but he wrote a book about how to grow tencha, and I haven't actually read it. Yeah, I hadn't read it yet. I'll send you the link for it.

Erin · 1:01:17

It's so fascinating. His name is Toshio Tetokawa. And yeah, it it was. It's an incredible read. Did you know one fun fact before we end in like the 1950s or 50s, I think he said to fertilize the tea bushes, they would use human feces really, because it would produce a really soft nutritious leaf like it it really, which it makes sense.

Zongjun · 1:01:43

It's like. Yeah. Oh yeah, actually it makes perfect sense. Wouldn't want to have that job on the T5 and. Like, yeah, you learn so much. It's great. It's that's super interesting. Better than synthetic fertilizer. It's all natural.

Zongjun · 1:02:01

True, yeah. True full circle moments. Indeed. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on and thank you to all the listeners. And if you enjoyed this podcast, please consider sharing it with a friend and we'll see you on the next one. And thanks so much, Ryan.

Ryan · 1:02:18

You're welcome. Thank you so much. Speak to you. Yeah. Bye. Bye.