Interview with Lorela Lohan, WanderlusTea

Ryan · 0:06

Hello and welcome to Specialty Matcha Podcast. My name is Ryan and Sam is currently running around our different supplier partners as we bring our matcha mill to life. So unfortunately he was not able to join. He he tried to, but he's pretty much in the middle of nowhere at the moment at a over planned meeting that went on way longer than we both expected.

Ryan · 0:25

But our packaging for the mill is almost ready, which is very exciting. But we're pleased today to have Lorela from WanderlusTea, who's based in Brussels, Belgium. It has tons of experience with the tea scene, not only within Brussels, but within Europe as a whole. So so happy to have you here and would love if you could tell us a little bit more about your personal background, your tea journey and WanderlusTea.

Lorela · 0:51

Yes, thank you so much, Ryan for this nice introduction. So I started I think with tea around 15 years ago to try to to taste. And I started actually because I was living in Italy and I didn't like coffee and it don't still don't like espresso. So I wanted to find the product.

Lorela · 1:09

And when you start with tea, you generally how it happens that you start with the best, like worst quality. And then step by step, if you have a little bit of research and willing to explore from the taste perspective, I just fell into a rabbit hole of all tea. So now after seven years that I decided actually to dedicate my career to tea and more in the speciality tea world. So like by speciality tea, I mean more sleeve teas, a little bit less on the bag, more authentic profiles, not flavor. I actually have more than I think 600 or 1000 teas here. So it's a sort of a big collection of tea. And then I started also another

Lorela · 1:51

addiction that actually is ceramics. So yeah, we are here so surrounded and submerged like tea and ceramics. So very interesting to say that I wanted to actually before starting WanderlusTea that is service consultancy for especially for tea businesses in, in Europe, helping you understanding the market, seeing what are the potential of development on the sales perspective of your, of the teas.

Lorela · 2:16

I actually worked into, I wanted to build like a subscription with three teas, the same kind of teas that are coming from different regions. They actually let people explore the the tasters. So like I was having this impression that you can still feel the difference between sencha that is produced in Kagoshima and sencha that is produced, for instance, in Shizuoka or by a certain master.

Lorela · 2:41

So my intention at the beginning was to actually have this kind of subscription. And it was actually during the COVID period that I started my entrepreneurial journey. I mean, I really reflected onto it properly and say, OK, I want to build something and then I actually carry out the the more the financial outcome and it was not at all viable.

Lorela · 3:02

So I said, OK, what I can do. And I was working more like management of non for profit. So management for non for profit is very similar to actually a business, the handling of business. So I said to myself what I can do, what kind of service is missing in the in the industry that is not yet there and could help the brands to get to know the products. So instead of like having somebody creating another product that is has really a lot, that has a lot of quality, what I can do to help actually the system and the industry in a more larger sense.

Lorela · 3:40

So I came up with WanderlusTea five years ago, actually in August, I created this. So it's really five years ago and I created these services for businesses more on the medium or micro enterprises that wanted to change the ecosystem and step by step to actually improve the quality of the teas that were offered that are offered to to the consumers.

Lorela · 4:06

And of course, like this is a big part helping them with the market research, helping them if there is availability where are actually the margin lying, how you can really create something that has a lot of quality and still make a sustainable living is not the easiest, the easiest market.

Lorela · 4:27

Actually, it's very difficult. We are a little bit more, let's say incline now that the with the matcha boom is actually starting more people to be passionate and discovering the T world in a more deep way. Nevertheless, we are still a little bit far away. So yeah, five years later I have to say that I well, in the meantime, actually starting business is always difficult to make it live and profitable.

Lorela · 4:54

And with the WanderlusTea, I'm not still there. However, two years ago I decided to dedicate myself full time to WanderlusTea to see if there is a viability in the market. And it's possible to be sustainable in a more long term by offering consultancy service and brand ambassadorship.

Lorela · 5:12

And of course, a lot of market research about how the market will be going. And it's actually what is the future of the market. So here you are in August. And one of the things that I really learn among the, let's say, my entrepreneur journey is definitely like the lessons that I received from different kind of people with whom I'm, I'm talked. And they actually, they, they let me interview them about their journey.

Lorela · 5:40

And with the focus mostly on the more business side of, of, of the, of the product. And not only to advertise the say the the tea, but rather to make people understand who the the the people that are actually creating the founders of this brand, how are actually making it and how much passion they have to actually still stay in a business that is not at all easy. That makes sense.

Ryan · 6:07

And it it's definitely a difficult business. And even just the insider knowledge like where are the margins? What are the margins like even I feel like I'm still trying to figure that out. Like it's it's after talking to so many different matcha people and some people, it's a really large actually, some people take an enormous cut. And you also see some people just adding on a little slice of margins, like, wow, like it's very nice, but maybe you should charge more.

Lorela · 6:36

The problem that we have with with the with I say with with the speciality industry and allow me to use the speciality industry because there are many definition of it is that the product that we are offering, they are very great.

Lorela · 6:51

Like they are very high quality. And the people that purchasing, they really don't understand why you're paying a product a certain amount of money. And as well, they don't understand tea. Even people that are in T BS like in the T BS, they don't understand tea mostly like in a in a more complete way, I think. And I don't claim to actually understand it still. I'm still learning a lot.

Lorela · 7:19

And everybody that is in the tea business will tell you, yeah, with tea you cannot not stop learning because there are so many variables. That is impossible. Too many rabbit holes, yeah. So I do believe that there is a problem with what is the value that people attribute to tea here in like in in Europe, but also in US like in all the market except maybe for the Asian, like for China and Taiwan and Japan where they actually is appreciated in this part like in integrating part of the culture. However, here in Europe is not integrating part in the culture. And if it is integrating part in the culture, like in the case of UK is not really really the

Lorela · 8:00

beautiful quality that we are expecting to drink is more about a sort of, let's say historical and let's say commodity that has almost nothing with the flavour profile that we are used to drink like nerds tea people used to drink.

Ryan · 8:17

So yes, it's, it's really, it's a deconstruction of certain assumptions to build up a new culture so that you you need to do a double work basically. Yeah, that makes sense. And maybe that's how matcha has been so successful because like with loose leaf tea, there's so many variables.

Lorela · 8:36

You have to have the right tea where the right water, but matcha just like pretends to be coffee almost. It's so substitutable and I think it's at least in my observation, it's just exploded in Europe. Like how, how have you seen like matcha positioning like I don't want to say become so much more successful than specialty, the average specialty tea and loose leaf tea, but like what has happened in its crazy growth compared to specialty tea within Europe? Like how do you attribute that success? Yeah, different, different kind of factors. I think that the first one is after have tried, I think that more than 100 matchas in

Lorela · 9:17

different kind of speciality tea bars across all Europe, because I travel a lot. So like from Amsterdam to Belgium to to Paris to France, the South of France to Portugal is catching up step by step. Italy as well is catching up.

Lorela · 9:34

Quite interesting to see that is every in the more urban cities. It's everywhere. Germany, I mean Germany, I think that for a certain period of time, matcha was more served than actually coffee in in Germany. So you can realize actually what is the impact that they are having Nordic countries. I think that how matcha has more than actually specialty tea is first of all customizable, second of all invites to a ritual.

Lorela · 10:02

So like you are preparing it. Everybody's preparing matcha by hand. So like it's almost mesmerizing. It's almost like taking the time to that ritual that is bringing you back to the moment which we are experiencing. I think after the COVID crisis, everybody is like going more in the Wellness era. So people maybe Start Stop to drink people they started to drink to to eat more cleaner.

Lorela · 10:29

You have this kind of protein programs, protein bars, collagen, all the kind of supplements, and I think that matcha really fitted this kind of dynamic in this kind of history. So they place it in a more, well, less position like taking care of yourself pack and then placing in that kind of dimension is actually they they unify with the possibility to actually enjoy it after a run, after a Pilates class, after, I don't know, just to pick up your energy, but not having the spikes that you have with coffee. And most of the people that drink coffee, like most of the people drink matcha.

Lorela · 11:09

They don't really drink like pure coffee. Like you have one person or two that order. I think if you put in a scale of 10, one person to the door, they're like a black coffee coffee and the rest is just what you like is actually the milk that you're adding to the coffee, the creation. And the same with matcha doesn't really doesn't really change a lot.

Lorela · 11:30

There are a few people that that want to experience matcha pure and most of the cafes that you try, they will not even put it on the menu. Some of them they will put it on the menu like the possibility to try just pure matcha, but most of them they will not just even bother to put it on the menu.

Lorela · 11:48

You have the possibility to customizing with everything. Basically you put now is like more creative You are. It is you have a banana caramel iced matcha latte. You have matcha cloud like mixing with matcha with cream cheese and with milk to create this kind of cloud.

Lorela · 12:07

And then you have like the coconut water and then like you can you cannot even feel the matcha. It's actually almost like like culinary ingredients. And now like, let's not talk about the fact that matcha is used in every kind of like patisserie like you have now we have pancakes with matcha, like the matcha milk, milk ferry.

Lorela · 12:25

So like the the real like the sort of the dessert that you are eating all the time, Matcha cookies, matcha crepe. There is one example, for instance, in in Amsterdam, they are doing that is called aroma. They are doing crepes like creme brulee, like crepes with a matcha the experience.

Lorela · 12:42

So, yeah, so it's like you have the possibility to actually have a crepe with matcha and then top it off with some caramel like a cream, like creme brulee type of wrap that is actually rotated like a sort of a kebab and you just eat it with Yeah.

Lorela · 12:58

So like what is the beauty I think about matcha and why is fitting so much? The actual culture is because it's so versatile, so customizable and as well it gives the illusion of a Wellness in the sense that if you drink matcha, you have more focus. True.

Lorela · 13:16

But if you drink matcha latte, I think that your focus is not so focused in the like it's not so alert. I mean most of the marketing claims that you have and most of the Wellness claims that you have on matcha is actually they are actually consider if you take the ingredient pure and you're just not mixing with milk or with other ingredients, but just morning routine matcha with just 70° water and the right proportions which are very important.

Ryan · 13:46

And of course the freshness, because that is one other factor. Yeah, it makes sense. That's interesting. The point around customizability, I had never thought about that, but you can like how would you customize like sencha that needs to be brewed like there's probably all the realm of like normal possibilities are feel so much lower than with matcha.

Lorela · 14:11

I don't think that is lower. It's just the way matcha is like adding that kind of bright color and green color that gives the impression of illusion of health. I think that's the the big factor as well. The color is very important of because it's visually attracting and it's also one of the reason why is is happening like this kind of boom on social media because the fact that the color is such a visual attractive that is more than actually the taste.

Lorela · 14:40

Then you package up as antioxidants, green focus alertness energy, which are which is actually happening when you drink pure matcha and then you have an amazing possibility to actually scale it and to make it viral. The same is happening with Uber, which doesn't is not a tea, but is entering the same kind of category of speciality coffee.

Lorela · 15:03

And let's not also forget that the fact that you are drinking something that is so appealing in a green colour with the possibility to actually create layers, you know, that's kind of giving the possibility to another exploration.

Lorela · 15:19

And that's maybe when sencha or even other type of teas, oolongs cannot maybe have the same effect because from the visual perspective, they just don't give the same satisfaction to the eye. And if you would create, for instance, a sencha cloud exactly.

Lorela · 15:41

So like you need the right consistency of the sencha and then you top it off with some cream with, I don't know, black tea, for instance, with, with made with cream cheese that is also visually appearing. However, the colours they don't give that kind of satisfaction that you have.

Lorela · 15:57

And that's, that's important because I've been, so I've experienced with different matcha and some of them in Korea especially, they're not shaded. And the colour is such a putting off argument every time that you propose it. It's just a colour doesn't mean that the quality is not good. Like the taste is really interesting. And this may be better than every, most of the matcha that you try in the latter.

Lorela · 16:21

However, it's quite interesting to, to see that the colour is just such an important factor. And that's why I don't think and I wanted to believe in the powder tea business like oolong powder, different kind of let's say black tea powders.

Ryan · 16:40

However, visually prospective, it might not be there to give that kind of appealing as much is giving just because of the colour basically. Yeah, especially for mass market. It's people eat with their eyes first, I guess is the the famous phrase and I think it really rings true. But that's interesting.

Ryan · 17:01

Have you noticed big like preference differences between European countries? Because we like at least as my American mind likes to bucket Europe as one place and it's incredibly diverse. So what inter country or even inter regional differences have you seen in matcha and in specialty T more generally? Yeah.

Lorela · 17:22

So I think that's that's a good, good point. Overall, I would say that it's almost the same except for that's a that's a one thing that is the same is that most of the brand, the most of the specialty places that I've visited, most of the people offering matcha in let's say more upscale eateries, they are offering ceremonial matcha, at least they claim is ceremonial matcha. So like you already see that the appealing to the customers is there.

Lorela · 17:50

So like they want ceremonial matcha. There are so-called influencers that actually are going to the different kind of matcha bars or like places where they serve matcha and they do comparative tasting and they have maybe the opportunity to actually just let's say influence so much the public opinion that they cannot risk actually having a product that is not in line with what is, what is the market offering.

Lorela · 18:20

So that's another particularity is actually that the matcha is actually ceremonial. So the the important part is that as well that you could technically drink it alone, like without latte, because the quality is very good.

Lorela · 18:35

And if I compare it like all the cafes that I've tried in Europe, they are offering really good quality and is generally not, not sweetened. So like ceremonial grade and not sweetened while in other markets, like when I was in, in Taiwan, but also some, some of the concoctions that I tried from US, they actually put sugar into already the matcha.

Lorela · 18:59

So like your drink is already sweetened and the colour is not, is not there for the moment. So that's that's a point that actually I can see across all the different kind of speciality coffee, ceremonial. Another point of let's say similar is that everybody's creating matcha bars.

Lorela · 19:18

So like the matcha bar is a place where you go and tailor your matcha so you have the possibility to customize it. So this is across Amsterdam, across Germany, across Paris, across Italy, across Switzerland and so on. So like they are matcha bars. Some of them they are not proposing only matcha. They have a small offer of coffee, but some of them they actually proposing also tea.

Lorela · 19:44

So like kind of like matcha and tea bar. So and one point that I can definitely notice as well is that it doesn't stop to the customization into drinks like occasion coffee drinker, but goes into cocktails or mocktails. So like the matcha, the really span into the possibility of being a drink for occasion.

Lorela · 20:09

Across almost all the all the eateries on the speciality coffee places that you that I have experienced so differences. You have degree of sweetness, which is something that is very important because every country has a different kind of, let's say palette and is used to a certain flavours.

Lorela · 20:29

I think that in in Paris, but those in Belgium there is more attention to the Craftsman of the drinks and the balance. So like you can still feel the matcha other places that are doing it a little bit more, let's say mainstream, you cannot feel it. Or at least you, you cannot really identify this matcha dude cannot identify the vegetable taste of umami. So it's a little bit more difficult also quality wise, despite the often ceremonial, some of them is still not there. So it's good quality.

Lorela · 21:04

But nevertheless, you can see there is a difference into what is offering in normal centers and in other like in other places in in in the country. And I think that's almost it. So like it's about. So there are not so many differences actually, once you visit like the beauty is also of globalization, let's call it the beauty is that all the places are almost uniform. You go in bars.

Lorela · 21:30

So the latest Cafe is very similar to what you have in in Hamburg. You go at the very similar to have in Paris is the same minimalist clean aesthetic that you can find everywhere. So once you try say once you try it, once you try it all, it's not true.

Lorela · 21:48

Because for instance, some of the countries are more inclined to witness. So they allow you to add protein and collagen and also other scoops of matcha into the drink to feel it more. So like there is an attention more on the Wellness side. And then some other places.

Lorela · 22:06

They are just places where you can experience the Japanese culture while some other places that you can see that is more a multi brand Viber where you take your drink. Maybe you stay there to wait for your drink, but then you leave and you savor it outside. So most of the brands actually are take away. It's not possible to consume it in like on site except some of them that are a little bit more upscale. So they created the space just for this. But by default it's A to go drink. So like, it's a meal, tea drink basically. Yeah, interesting.

Ryan · 22:42

That's really interesting to. There's this sort of concept that is floating around that matcha has almost transcended tea that's kind of living its own life. Like, do you feel that or because like everything that you're saying, it feels like it it's living, It's, it's a completely new subculture within tea, but people don't even view it as tea. Actually in France, when I talk to the average person, I don't think a lot of people realize that one, it's tea. And like a lot of people, shocking to me, considering how much French people care about where their food comes from, they don't think of it as a

Ryan · 23:15

Japanese product. Like, is that true in your experience? Like do people realize it's tea or that it's even like sort of originally a Japanese product or is it they care more about, I don't know, ceremonial grade or or the health claims, the functional benefits?

Lorela · 23:32

I'll start with the second part is actually about Japan. Yes, definitely. I think the love like people really care about Japan. That is a Japanese product. OK. There is a stigma when you are proposing a Chinese. Most of the brands that are actually advocating that they have ceremony much they say much of from Uji from Japan and sometimes they expressly indicated on the doors in Hamburg for instance, this new cafe, a new new matcha bar where I was actually mentioning 100% coming from Uji Japan. So like the origin is coming from Japan because now we are in a stage of the market with everybody more or less knows that is coming from Japan and

Lorela · 24:17

everybody in love with Japanese culture. They actually tried and they experienced much because you can you you see that there is a surge of tourism. I think that this last year alone there were 40,000,000 of tourists in in Japan and there is a craze about Japanese product and everything that is Japanese.

Lorela · 24:38

It's kind of view in a more like very flattering testing. And as well matcha is part of it in this case of matcha because matcha in Japan is consumed not so much as a latte. So you can go in specialty coffee, but it's not the same kind of vibe that you have here. It's more about taking the time ceremonial, so ritual part experience it pure and then maybe try it in an alternative way, but doesn't start as a default to actually have like the latte experience in in mind.

Lorela · 25:15

It just matcha with in a bowl with a certain setting, maybe with a ceremony with the wagashi. So like a sweet treat to accompany the say the vegetable, the umami flavour of the matcha. So that is a completely different experience. So a lot of people are maybe drawn as well when they come back from Japan, they really want to experience the same kind of like feeling that they had in matcha with matcha in Japan. And they go maybe for something that is not a lot, but maybe a matcha tonic or just a simple matcha with water if they serve it in a bowl.

Lorela · 25:52

And they really love the ceremony part. So like they are more interested in actually taking the moment and preparing it at home as they they they want. So that is one part. Second of all, I think that eat transcended tea. Yes, of course, like milk tea, transcended milk tea, like like bubble tea, we call it bubble tea is better because actually it's not milk.

Lorela · 26:14

I mean, it's milk, but you have the bubbles inside. So people know a little bit more about it. But yes, I don't think that a lot of people realise that much is tea. They just think that it's a powder that is coming from a different plant that you actually have a tea. And most of the people they don't know that is coming residency.

Lorela · 26:32

So yes, I do believe that those that let's say those that are in the in like they, they experience a lot of tea, don't view matcha as the thing that to consume every day. Those that really come from an experience of like latte after your matcha run. Because here in in Europe, like in Brussels, you have clubs, matcha run clubs.

Lorela · 26:59

Basically they they run together and then Sunday morning they get their matches at the February spot. And then the sport changes every time basically. Like you see that is kind of part of Wellness. Yeah, indeed. But this is not a tea community.

Lorela · 27:15

It's a matcha community and it's more a Wellness community. So we are focused on the Wellness and on the well-being that the matcha is having on your body after a run. So to reply to your question, yes, definitely I think that is not a tea product, is not considered a tea product by many people. Many people don't know that the powder is actually green tea. Now there are more and more people that are informing even if sometimes there are a little bit controversial informations, but we don't care about it because the base is there and that there are a lot of people that know that is coming for a green tea that has been shaded.

Ryan · 27:54

And so to develop to the kind of green that we are expecting having from the matcha. And how have you seen you, you mentioned that it's important to more and more important to consumers and businesses that it's a Japanese product.

Lorela · 28:06

But how have you seen like Korean or Chinese matcha or even like Vietnamese? You you start to see these new origins are producing countries, like how are they being received and like what, what's how, how, what's the picture of that on the ground in your experience? I think you need to already differentiate between B to B&B to C, OK.

Lorela · 28:30

All the B to C brands are actually coming from Japan, most of them. So like if you want to sell as a private your own label, it's coming from Japan most of the time from Uji. So like ceremonial grade and premium grade. So like you have already the origin is already settled. If you want to sell Japanese like Chinese matcha, I think you can do it B to B, But a lot of consumers still have a stigma against consuming Chinese matcha. So like there will be more less consumers actually having much Chinese matcha.

Lorela · 29:04

And if you want to build a business with let's say with selling Chinese matcha and it's not B to B but B to C, it's a little bit more difficult despite if you consider the market, overall market and the volumes of the market.

Lorela · 29:20

Yes, most of this coming from from Japan. But in reality, most the businesses that are now like producing more volume are actually offering Chinese matcha. So I think that that's quite an interesting part that consumers don't really know if their matcha is coming from, from China.

Lorela · 29:40

If they're, if I, I, I, I ask because most of the time I like to ask where is the matcha is coming from? And in the beginning, for instance, they were only like Japanese matcha. But then my speciality coffee place, they actually, I talked with them and, and most of the speciality coffees that they have, like we take the matcha from this, is it Japanese or Chinese is Chinese.

Lorela · 30:05

So almost almost all the cafes. So almost all the cafes that are supplied by the leaders in the market, they're supplied to B to B. They are choosing Chinese matcha interest of the price point. And because is price point, but also tasty. Some of the rest like culinary matcha are really good as well in the Chinese.

Lorela · 30:28

If you want to use it for a cake, if you want to use it for latte, it's perfectly fine actually to use a Chinese matcha. Just that consumers wise will never get that kind of, I don't know that kind of feeling of consuming Chinese product, which is not correct.

Ryan · 30:45

But however, there is the stigma of of consuming Chinese project and this idealisation of offering a Japanese product to the consumers. OK, very interesting. Have you seen more and more like I I don't have the right vocabulary specialty matcha grow within Europe like people offering single cultivars, different origins, like how have you seen that? Because it's everywhere.

Lorela · 31:12

But typically you'll just see ceremonial as you said, maybe Uji. Yeah. Or actually most places it just has matcha, but like where there's more and more product distinctions within the category. There are a couple of places that they were there before the craze, I mean during the craze, but it was a little bit more control.

Lorela · 31:33

So people were just discovering. There is one place that comes into my mind where I did my my tasting that actually you can taste the fourteen types of different matchas from different cultivars and different process as well of shading.

Lorela · 31:47

Some of them they are shaded only two weeks, other three weeks. Some of them they are really suitable for lattes. Some of them they are blends cultivars, other they're just single cultivar. For instance, one of the most impressive cultivar that I ever tried is actually Uji Hikari. So when I see this kind of cultivar, I, I, I just purchase it because it's my taste and I could drink this every day without anything.

Lorela · 32:13

Even if I put something that will ruin the vacha, but it's all. It costs around €60 per 30 grams. So you need to as well understand what is behind actually having a single cultivar. So there are places, but of course it's just fun up until thousands that are free much.

Lorela · 32:30

So I would say yes, there is a distinction sometimes from premium and ceremonial. And if you ask what is the cultivar, they will tell you that is a bland or is, I don't know, okumidori or saemidori like a bland. It's it's possible to ask is not even in Japanese coffee and teahouses is not expressly mentioned if you are not asking.

Lorela · 32:54

So they will say our matcha is coming from Uji or from Kagoshima or from however is actually not not really advertised like it's more concentrated into the knowledge and there is this is this the this much are coming from this area has been, I don't know produced in 2026 has been left the tension has been left maturated in autumn and then has been milded and has been richer. Not this kind of details for the moment is not there and I think that will never be there except in speciality places. So if you go for instance in at Ogata in Paris, you have the possibility to try different kind of matches. You have also, for instance,

Lorela · 33:44

I've tried now a matcha, gyokuro that is coming from from Kaori. She's has been importing tea and spices from from Japan since a long time. She was one of the first one getting into speciality tea and also convincing restaurants to adopt A better quality of tea. And she has amazing matcha and it's just it just a great quality.

Lorela · 34:11

However, where is sold in one or two niche supermarkets, some Japanese festivals where there are crazy people like myself that actually spend a lot of money on tea. But in general, like you have because people don't know about the product and and most of the time now they are discovering more. But nevertheless like the default setting is matcha latte. And now as well in Japanese fairs you have people serving matcha latte.

Lorela · 34:39

That was not the case two years ago. For instance, you had only like teas like gyokuro, sencha and so on and so forth, but possibility to drink and normal matcha with the ceremony and that's that's it. So you had not the possibility to really have lattes.

Lorela · 34:56

Now actually all the fairs are offering as well lattes into their selection or matcha tonic, which I think that is a good way to actually perceive the taste of matcha way much more than latte and really suited well. But now like there is no limit to the creativity of it. True, true.

Ryan · 35:17

So there's been like an explosion of new Matcha brands, both new brands and brands from outside Europe wanting to enter Europe. What are some like common mistakes that you see when people are trying to get their brand established, you know, in this market?

Lorela · 35:33

There is no real differentiation like in the beginning what there was, there was like there was one or two brands saying that claiming that your match is coming from Uji, that you source it directly, that you've been visiting the farms was a unique selling point. Now is there is not such a thing like everybody's claiming the same kind of virtues.

Lorela · 35:57

Everybody is like putting pictures of their visit to the to the tea factories and some of them they are also explaining that, but they are very few of them most of the time is female narrative. So like they're female, went to Japan, they fell in love and they open a tea brand, they open a match bar if they have the possibility and they have the right affluence and there is a sort of beautification of the brand, but it's a very pasting copy feeling.

Lorela · 36:29

So they are not, I would say. What are the common mistakes? Is that what is your unique selling point now in the saturated market? The Yeah. Totally. The whole playbook will work. Yeah. And indeed. And then you have I think that as well another point is that it's more a word on the type of brand and aesthetic than actually on the product itself. Because yeah, you can have an amazing match and you can be on your can be have installed like very great relationship with the producers from a long time ago.

Lorela · 37:06

However, I mean, I'm, I'm always doubtful about the narrative behind it. And also most of the products that I've tried, and I tried many brands because I'm curious about it and because I'm studying the market, you can realise that they're almost all the same.

Lorela · 37:23

Some of them they really deficient themselves. Like I have like Calorie, for instance, but also the brand that I'm collaborating to the moment is actually offering Kagoshima produce like matcha Kagoshima produce in Kagoshima and Miyazaki. And they have an amazing, let's say story. They already were part of a family of merchants of tea. They had like, he's Japanese, he moved to to the Netherlands. So you he actually wanted to make matcha accessible for everybody.

Lorela · 37:55

So like he's he's offering the ready Kagoshima Matcha. It's a blender, but it's very accessible in comparison what you find in the market where you pay more the packaging that actually the product that you are experiencing.

Lorela · 38:09

And some of the brands and I'm not nominating, they are putting like wrong nutritional values because some of the brands they are advocating that there are a lot of calories into the matcha, which is not true actually. Well, matcha doesn't have any calories like tea and the nutritious facts are completely wrong when it's a ceremonial matcha.

Lorela · 38:30

So like it's the problem is so it's a more a word on the brand, which there's nothing wrong with it instead of really being a word on the product which their consumers can really see the value in the long term. Of course, I would say if I had to create my own matcha brand today, I will not change the pasting copy model because most of them they are sold out.

Lorela · 38:57

If you have a good so how it's happening currently, you have a good affluence base, maybe you're an influencer, maybe you're a girl into Wellness and Pilates. You say, OK, I want to offer something to my consumer. The matcha is actually offering a matcha is actually the quickest, easier way to sell tea and to sell lifestyle basically because it's not to read. The tea is more the lifestyle that comes along. And then you have you prepare it, you select it, you do some videos on like drinking it after Pilates and you sell it because you have the customer base via social media. So this is like the default

Lorela · 39:39

setting. And then you create your website with two products and that's it. Just the packaging is different. However, some of them, of course, they have different products, but most of them I would say that the products don't surprise, don't really surprise me anymore.

Lorela · 39:56

But of course, I'm picky. So as well, I tasted a lot and, and it's very difficult for me product to be surprising. There are some that I still appreciate that they put amazing quality and, and you can see the colour and you can really taste the matcha and you have that feeling of, of umami of your taste of energy that is rushing through your body.

Lorela · 40:19

But they are very few. I have in mind 2 here in in Belgium and that's it. Well, I mean, they have a double problem because not only if they create a brand, but you have to find a good product and to find a good product from Japan that's EU compliant is very challenging.

Ryan · 40:37

That's for something that tastes good. I don't think it's very challenging to be honest with you. I think that yes, the prices have risen because we have a problem with production. However, if I had to decide to open a matcha brand, if I would go to a wholesaler, not a producer directly.

Lorela · 40:58

And even now producers are actually like people that are commercializing brands. They know that they need to secure it to the one year before the the quantities that they might need. But to be honest with you, I would, I would not have a lot of problem I think in if I had to create a brand in two weeks time.

Lorela · 41:18

Now with the technology we have, I will have a matcha brand and my packaging would be ready. Yeah, that, that's a really good point actually, because my mind always thinks back straight to the producer. But you're so right.

Lorela · 41:30

There's like these people in the middle, like these middle men, which everyone likes to hate, actually provide a ton of value. They've already laid out the cash, they have the inventory, they have the relationships, their packaging solutions like they're ready to go. They've solved the problem for you. So as well like you also need to understand that there are tests to be done for the products that. Yeah, totally.

Lorela · 41:53

It's. Very expensive and so like having a middleman like a whole supply, a whole like whole supplier and importer that are ready to care of everything and you just need to say this is the packages that I want and they add on top of what you are requesting of the product.

Lorela · 42:12

Also like the packaging. Honestly, it would not be a big problem. It would be a big problem if I have to offer like single cultivar, if I have to offer maybe matches that are very well known with some masters that they have really limited the quantities.

Lorela · 42:31

If you really want to do it in a geeky way, it will be difficult. If you want to do it more, let's say you want to have a big like a cash flow, not a big one because still like there is a lot of margin, but nevertheless, like it's not impressed.

Lorela · 42:46

Like it's not a lot. I think that it's if I would have a minimum of capital, yeah, in two weeks, I would be maybe 3, let's say 3 weeks, I would be able to launch my brand. What do you think the consequences of that are?

Lorela · 43:00

Because you see a flood of like it's easy to create a website. You plug in Shopify, they have three PL. services. You buy from a distributor that is the importer of record, takes care of all the paperwork like. So I think that I talked with somebody as well in the industry that actually is still committed to offering big quality like good qualities.

Lorela · 43:23

But the problem is for good quality, much of the prices is really raising a lot. So if you already like have a big relationship with the producers and still the pricing has been rising a lot in the in the last three years, I think it's more than 70% or 100% in the right.

Lorela · 43:42

So it's a lot for a small business or for somebody wanting to launch a brand. And I think one of the things that they he mentioned is actually there are many, many offers in the market, especially for Japanese and Chinese matcha they're offering with a lower price point.

Lorela · 43:57

So let's say that you cannot really stay competitive on the price average. You see, I do you can because most of the so if you want to really have the B to B part, it's impossible to stay competitive in the long term with the clients that you are currently have because the cafe will never choose a product to pay to pay product really high price. If they have the possibility to choose a product that has a, a smaller price.

Lorela · 44:31

And consumers, they still cannot take the difference about about what is different in this product instead of the other. So this is one problem that they can see a lot of people that were present into the market like tea businesses collaborating B to B. So having as a client more businesses, we are having a difficult time because if you want to supply a quality product, so you need to pay the price. And now there are more way much more alternatives for cafes to actually choose from the quality of matcha. And since nevertheless the end consumer is not going to really feel the difference because if

Lorela · 45:07

they consume most in lattes, that's really not perceptible at all. And that's a problem that they might have all those that are in the industry for a long time and they they actually are committed to offering good quality.

Lorela · 45:22

They will have a hard time while others that they don't really care about the quality they're offering. Yeah, they might they might have the life of the time with the volume. And also another point that I think that it's important like quite to mention is that pricing are almost the same like everywhere.

Lorela · 45:44

If you have a packaging from brand is around forty €4035 per 330 grams of matcha. So let's say you have a branded product, so you pay paying that. This is the average that you have. If you go to more, let's say bigger brands of tea, you can have, you can have it with a small pricing. So I can see that there is a competition into the category because why a product should why somebody should choose your product if they are paid the same and the quality is similar, first of all.

Lorela · 46:22

And second of all, I think there is a problem with the fact that if they, if a person wants to purchase good quality can go to a speciality place and purchase it for way much less than actually if you sell it as a private brand.

Lorela · 46:40

So there is that part also. One other point is actually that most of the brands, they have an online shop. So distribution, it's important to have like the speciality cafes that are advocating your product so you can display it and it's possible to purchase it after they try it in a latter.

Lorela · 46:59

So that's another problem that I can see not everybody's like skilled to enter different kind of cafes. You need a development plan and you you need as well to the possibility to showcase your product. So you need to have like a brand collaboration.

Lorela · 47:14

So maybe go in places that I don't know, I think about the matcha, like Pilates studios. I think about, I don't know, K pop Korean, let's say cosmetics places where you can serve your product and then people can can really buy it because people will never really purchase your product if then they have not tried it. It's impossible, like even.

Lorela · 47:38

Yeah, yeah. Especially if you're laying out that much money online, you don't know what you're buying. Yeah, exactly, exactly. So it's a lot in any case, like €40 for a can of 30 grams of matcha is enormous. I mean, not for somebody that is crazy like us to spend a lot of money in tea. But however, if you think about the yeah, the, the, the amount of money, it's, it's a lot.

Lorela · 48:02

It's more than one euro per gram. Yeah, yeah, it's insane for like, especially if you're asking the average consumer or matcha lover. It's it's risky too. You're making a bet, not just not good. How many times are you willing to do that before you drop out of the category you know entirely?

Lorela · 48:21

No, it's fine. I mean, I, I, I still have some brands because I tasted it quite a lot. And when I tasted and I don't like it, I just put it in a, in a latte or, you know, with a tonic or with some, some kind of cream and it works OK. Because at the end is, it's, I mean, you need to have like kind of balance of flavour, but it's too bitter. I mean, I don't mind also drinking too bitter because I like, I like a more bitter taster. But for people that are not used to it, like it's a no go and they need to create something.

Lorela · 48:53

And that's as well one of the points that I think that differentiate also brands like your marketing and social media education to your customers, the idea that you give them to the community to create something to do a recipe to, to just use it in an alternative way. Even for cooking example, like give the example. I think that's could be another differentiating factor for small brands having the right community, having the community to actually support and show the community, educate where it's coming from.

Lorela · 49:29

What like how to do it. It's another point because there is an aesthetic behind, there is the possibility to customize, there is a latte art that you can create. So there is a old category that they called the beautification of matcha that can be explored into making a brand successful. And then of course, like if you think about the brands like the bigger brands like Annate, they created books on educating people about matcha and whatever is my opinion about the their matcha, like this is a winning strategy in the long term because you are already by writing a book, you are proclaiming yourself a leader into a market,

Lorela · 50:13

despite nowadays books exist and not everybody's is reading them because I mean, there is digitalisation of everything, but they have a good, let's say selling point and they are if you want to learn more like this is a reference you see.

Lorela · 50:28

Yeah, makes sense and really like localizing and resonating with the customer base, especially in new languages. And so in a lot of language, if you don't know English, it's different, or even in some cases, if you don't know Japanese, it's very hard to learn.

Lorela · 50:43

Yeah. But now like I say that for instance, in a like a market as fragmented as Belgium where you have the French speaking, you have the Flemish speaking and then you have the English that is basically based mostly in Brussels. But also like there are a lot of immigrants. So like English is by default language. You could say they are they are brands per per parts, like per regions of of it.

Lorela · 51:09

Nevertheless, I think that now you can do a strategy based on every in English and it's working very well. Like most of the brands that I know they are speaking in English or they are starting having like conversation in French. So I can, I didn't think that is like language can definitely can be a barrier, especially if you're in France and you like if you're from UK or from if you US, it will be a problem entering the French market.

Lorela · 51:37

Nevertheless, I don't think that language has become such a big, such a big barrier considering that let's say that social media has so much contribute to the influence of matcha and the use of matcha that most of the accounts that are successful.

Lorela · 51:55

So most of the accounts that that have been open and talked about and disseminate information about matcha or wanting the brand to explore more, they, they are all in English. So I mean, except from China, but we're talking about more the European, let's say, market in this. Sure.

Lorela · 52:14

OK, very interesting. I guess there's one last question. What? How do you want to see the future of the matcha industry, or specialty tea industry in general, evolve in the next? That's a good question. I used to say that I think that's OK. So matcha will become now is actually a common product that you can find in every specialty coffee, almost everywhere, even kebab shops everywhere.

Lorela · 52:41

There is the possibility to exploit it, you can find it. But I do believe that there is a saturation of the market that will come naturally with time of course, when you reach that kind of volume. So they will have sort of competition war between the bigger brands and then the competition war between the smaller brands and who'll win?

Lorela · 53:04

We'll see. But I do believe that we are going to have it even more a product like common product. Everybody will know about Matcha because it's already the case. However, like there's still like a more, let's say season season generation that still hasn't yet tried it, like refuses to try it or more like it's not something that they will.

Lorela · 53:27

They will never give up coffee. They will never give up wine. They will never try maybe matcha. So like there is this season in generation. But what what I can see is that once the generation will slightly go on with the life in this case that it will be like it, it will be by default. You'll find it everywhere.

Lorela · 53:49

Because I don't like generation X and generation like millennials and Z and Alpha and all the different kind of they will come, they will know about matcha. So I say that is a bright future for the for the product. However, we need to understand up until where there will be quality and if the market will have like it's happening with generally all the product categorisation.

Lorela · 54:18

You have the niche product, you have the medium like volume part and then you have the mass volume that will go into. I do believe that is, since Matcha is part of more culture, a Wellness culture, up until there will be the Wellness culture driving this kind of boom will not have a stop because it can be is no more. A niche is actually a product that you need to have to attract the consumers, to attract the next generation consumer. You cannot have a cafe not offering matcha. I mean you can choose like in Germany, they choose to say OK, this establishment doesn't serve matcha. However, yeah, when do you think

Lorela · 55:03

that this, the new generation will stop drinking coffee? How many times like we could say that I stop drinking coffee, Many other people's in my network stop drinking coffee because it's like they don't, they don't cope functionally with it. And they started with matcha by by chance, you see. And then step by step, they actually, yeah, just consume matcha all the time and.

Lorela · 55:28

If they drink it every day for the rest of their life, that's fifty 6070 years of consumption. It's compound growth, every new person. Exactly. Exactly. And then like it was like maybe with grandma's passing up the recipes, that would be grandma's recipe. I prefer, I prefer my matcha to be with coconut milk instead of almond milk or pea milk.

Lorela · 55:51

And then with this kind of poor. So I do believe that there is the possibility to actually that is there to stay. So definitely that will be a more, it will become a mass product. It's already a mass product. It will become a mass product. It will also be present in cold brew, already ready to drink. You have the example of of Starbucks, the just launched, the iced matcha latte.

Lorela · 56:15

You can see it in already preparation with matcha and oatmeal. Oatly is a good example. They have this kind of preparation. You have it with coconut, so it's already ready to drink. So basically the only thing that you have to do is to heat up in a microwave or put a little bit of cream on top and you have your drink. So I do believe that is there to stay in a little bit. I, I do hope that there will not be this dichotomy that is generally happening between tradition and innovation, saying, OK, like the innovation is always better and it's the, the default way to drink it because the traditional, how to consume matcha in a ceremonial

Lorela · 56:59

way is, is very interesting to preserve. But yes, I, I do believe that the mass market would be there for the matcha. And regarding speciality tea, the hope is that more people get into matcha will be get more interested into green teas and then from there going into interest in in more and more tea.

Lorela · 57:20

And once you fill it in the rabbit hole of teas, you never go back because there's so much to taste. But of course, I do hope that there will be another product in the tea category that will be able to create the same kind of buzz as matcha. It might be, I don't see it.

Lorela · 57:38

So rose like say very, but let's let's hope there will be somebody like some other products, say, for instance, think about oolong tea can really be a great alternative for the for the lattes can be I think about the black matcha that the white orchard is offering like it's a it's really speaking to a certain audience, somebody that doesn't like so much the vegetable taste. People are loving it with oat milk and with with a little bit of Maple syrup.

Lorela · 58:10

So I do, I believe there is the possibility. The only problem is in the case of the speciality is the price point, because the powder price point is always more elevated than actually the tea. And already the teas are quite elevated in the price to be competitive in our current market. And maybe in the future market we'll be able to compete. But it's too too much of a difference between the consumption of tea as commodity level when you pay a tea bag $0.15.

Lorela · 58:38

And then he added the specialty matcha where you can pay 20 grams, I don't know, €20 or €25.00. So it's very, very difficult to predict since it's such a, such a big market and such a many variations to say this is a product that will succeed. And as well, like, let's not forget that the boom of matcha is done by the social media, by the influencers, by the female, like the beautification of the businesses. Everything is very pastel wise, very beautiful. And of course, for the love of Japan. So like the fact to we're talking about a lot about Asia matcha-ing or like China matcha-ing as well up until there will not be, let's say this kind of love for

Lorela · 59:32

particular product in China. That will be difficult. Of course, if you think about also the the meal like the bubble tea industry, that could be as well. Another example is saying how where the speciality can go, you can have more pointed products like you have HEYTEA, London.

Lorela · 59:53

Yeah, yeah, that they create good milk tea with Qimen (keemun), black tea with like Jasmine Pearl. They create, they really use the the leaves into the production. So you could say they could be, let's say a more consumption of good quality tea via the preparation of the bubble tea or the lattice like a tea lattice.

Lorela · 1:00:17

So could be another way to see the industry in a positive light. I'm not talking about Kung Fu cha style, I'm just hoping that at least the quality of the teas will be more available in like common establishment, indoor like a sector. That makes sense.

Ryan · 1:00:35

And actually in China, I'm in and out of China all the time. The number like HEYTEA for as you said, chuggy ginly crushed lemon tea. They're like they're and they're using like Dan Cong sometimes single cultivar Dan Cong and then smashing these fragrant lines.

Ryan · 1:00:50

It's so good. It's it would be really cool to see some of that culture across the border. But you see, like when I was in in Taiwan, I'd never drink any matcha because the quality of matcha, it was not good. Honestly, I tried three different kind of places and all of them very disappointed as a like quality.

Lorela · 1:01:11

And to be honest, the quality of the tea is so good into like in into the drinks, like the creation of the milk tea. It's so good that you almost don't want to drink matcha for the quality that there is currently in Taiwan.

Lorela · 1:01:27

So when you think about using high, high mountain oolong, you don't think like really low rental beauty into the base of extracting really the flavours via concentrated brew. Basically when you put a lot of leaves and then you have like this kind of extraction, then you need to add just a little bit of water and with a little bit of milk if you want to, or just simple like that. Because there are chains that actually serve it without adding anything.

Lorela · 1:01:58

Just the flavor profile of of a tea of the tea. Yeah, that's that's amazing. Because then you can also customize it with the sugar level. You can customize it with the ice level. You can customize it as you wish. So like basically is like the matcha that we have here in in Europe is almost as it is the bubble tea in Taiwan.

Lorela · 1:02:21

So like the level of customization is very similar. The only difference that instead of the matcha, they use the tea, the local tea that they have there. Yeah. Yeah, that's a wonderful connection and actually could be a very nice way that specialty tea can grow within Europe. Like it doesn't have to look like Kung Fu cha, doesn't have to look like Senchadō.

Ryan · 1:02:41

It can take on these new forms that are a little more contemporary. Yeah, I think so. And the bright future in in Paris. You have fan fan tea, Have you tried? No, I haven't. Tea is basically the you can have a Dan Cong, you have a Qimen (keemun) black tea, you have a base, a great base, and then you can add everything you can think about, but it's already a good base of tea.

Lorela · 1:03:07

You see that it's already giving you the possibility to to take first of all, to smell the leaves because they have the possibility to smell the leaves to see the leaves how they are. And then you you can top it off with whatever you feel like.

Lorela · 1:03:21

If you don't feel like getting anything sweet is fine. But there is there are also a lot of interesting combination with cream that they don't have any sweet and adjusted. So like you can, you can really create a healthy drink without the maturity vibe that you can have.

Ryan · 1:03:40

Very cool. Yeah, you should try it. Yeah, I need to check it out. This was awesome. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your insights. You're more than welcome, thank you for hearing from me and sorry for blab blabbering so much.

Ryan · 1:03:54

No, no, no, we love that here. It's going down rabbit holes is is what this podcast is all about. If people want to learn more about your work and your company, the website the best place to go to. Is the website also I'm starting to get very active on on Instagram or LinkedIn? I'm very, very active because my work is mostly from the business perspective, so I need people to realise what is going on in the industry, especially here in Europe. But most of the my work, it can be found on the website. I have more than 90 interviews with people in the industry. Yes, it's a really big, big database of learning. You just need to have the

Lorela · 1:04:35

patient to, to read and to be interested by by the topic. There are slightly changing it because I would like people to to have a more to be more at ease to look for topics. So I might be saying, OK, this is the kombucha section, this is the sparkling tea, this is the matcha section, so people can can really see what is going on. And also, if you find me at festivals, don't hesitate to to actually come and, and chat about, about the tea. It's always nice to meet new people in the tea and the beauty of the tea community still quite, quite one of the things that that drove me actually to the to the speciality. Tea people were the best, yeah.

Ryan · 1:05:19

I think so. So if you enjoyed this episode, please consider sharing with a friend and we'll see you in the next one. Thanks. Take care. Thank you.