Interview with Jacque and Matcha, Jacque

Ryan · 0:00

Hello and welcome to the Specialty Matcha Podcast. My name is Ryan, this is my cofounder Zongjun. Hello. Hello. And we're the cofounders of Sanko Matcha Products. Yeah. We launched this podcast to discuss our learning journey in Matcha, share startup stories and interview experts. And today we are happy to have Jacque from Jacque and Matcha. Welcome, Jacque.

Jacque · 0:19

Hi everyone. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for coming on, we've been exchanging on Instagram for quite a while. So so happy you could a friendly get to see you face to face. Yes, that's true.

Ryan · 0:34

And hopefully like some way, like somehow in the future, we all get to like share a bowl of tea together in. Person, I think both Sam and I, when our mill prototype is to the point where we're very happy, I think Manila and the Philippines will definitely be on the road show of where we take it. Definitely, we would love to have that here. Yeah.

Ryan · 0:55

We, we think just Southeast Asia in general, the matcha scene is just exploding and it's kind of exploding in a way that we're not seeing a lot of other places, especially in the Philippines, Thailand, Singapore. It's really cool to see like Matcha gained a foothold in those markets. Starting like crazy, like this year alone, I feel like so many cafes have popped up, so many matcha content creators have like signed up on Instagram, so it's crazy. The girls from like the past two years alone, it's crazy. That's awesome.

Ryan · 1:32

You can really feel it too, even remotely. Yeah. It's it's been 2 years since we've been back to the Philippines, so it's it's we can't wait to see the scene in person too. A time to go back. We'd love to have you guys soon.

Jacque · 1:46

That's awesome. So could you tell everyone a little bit about your brand Jacque and Matcha and a little bit about your background as well? Sure. So actually when I signed on Instagram using the Jacque and Matcha account, that was just a way for me to post all my matcha content because I've been drinking a lot of matcha and posting at my personal account.

Jacque · 2:10

And then I realized maybe the people who follow me there might not be super interested with with so much matcha content. So I decided to put put up a different one, right. And then yeah, I think I started the account 2022.

Jacque · 2:27

So I was like deep in too much for like a year already. And then it's just it just started to grow from there. All the pop ups that I've been doing lately, that was all by accident. So this the invention was just for it to be a personal brand because I'm actually working on a different brand for my matcha and Japanese teas in general.

Jacque · 2:54

So that brand is underway and hopefully I get to launch it in 2025. But for now, I'm going with my personal account first as I like do my pop ups, introduce myself in the community, in the market. So there my background would be, huh? I'm just, I describe myself as a matcha enthusiast first and foremost.

Jacque · 3:19

I really just enjoy drinking it in usucha in lattes and desserts. And eventually because of my love for matcha and all my travels in Japan, I discovered sado, or chanoyu. So for a year now, I've been practicing with Urasenke Tankokai in Manila.

Jacque · 3:38

So there's a Manila association. I've been practicing with them for over a year and I really fell in love with the idea of, with the idea behind chanoyu, not just like serving tea, but all the parts about just being grateful for for all the encounters that you're having. That's one of the things that I really love about it. And then now I would consider myself someone who's who wants to be in the F&B industry for real. So I started I guess as like a home Brewer and then now I really want to be able to share and spread more about Matcha through like a brand for there.

Ryan · 4:20

Awesome, that's awesome. How long is your average cafe? Cause pop up like when I see when I see you on Instagram, it seems like you're like stationed there for quite a while. It's almost like you're like guest chefing but like but for like a matcha barista. Yeah, usually just two days.

Jacque · 4:39

So it's always a weekend because that's where most of the people come in. So they invite me over the weekend. Most of them are two days, but some invite me for a day. OK. So yeah, it just feels long I guess because I keep posting about it prior to the to the actual pop up and then after the pop up I have like posts, post events like roundups and stuff.

Ryan · 5:04

So it feels longer. I see so a lot of like other matcha brands and even like when sometimes Zongjun and I are talking, we're like, oh, we'd love to do pop ups. Yeah, we we haven't done 1 yet. But like, what's good to know?

Ryan · 5:18

Like do you approach the coffee shops or do the coffee shops approach you? How do you like plug into their operations? How does that kind of unfold? Yeah, it's really great because this all started through connections that we have with our other like businesses in a sense. So like I mentioned my husband and his siblings, they own a cafe.

Jacque · 5:40

And then my job, my day job is that I'm a producer and I used to work in a magazine. So I've had a lot of connections also. And then it all started when cafes would invite me. So they just told me as the person who just loves drinking matcha.

Jacque · 5:57

And then one of my friends who owns a bakery, he just said you want to do like a pop up this weekend because we don't serve matcha, we only have coffee. So it would be nice for you to serve matcha because a lot of people are looking for it.

Jacque · 6:10

And then it started from there. That was in August. That was in August. We had a 2 day pop up. I wasn't prepared at all. I ran out of matcha. We had problems with like cups and stickers and all of those things. And then it just snowballed from there. Different cafes have invited me from not just Manila. Actually, a lot of the people who invited me are outside Manila.

Jacque · 6:33

So I did a few ones in the north and then at least one in the South. Very cool. So yeah. So for now, at first, I thought I was like, OK, I'm only going to do this for a month, not a month. Like, I'm only going to do this once a month. So it adds to that mystery so that people don't, like, always see me everywhere.

Jacque · 6:52

But that kind of changed because of the people who invite me, which I'm grateful for. Now I would do pop ups every weekend so that yeah, from like once a month to every weekend. Since August, it became like the gaps between the pop ups became shorter and shorter. And even in December, a lot of people were asking for my schedule.

Jacque · 7:13

But I really couldn't commit anymore because of like personal stuff and also will be traveling, so yeah. Do cafe shops like tend to invite you when they do not have a matcha program to begin with? Or like do do you see a mix of both? There's definitely a mix of both. So the first cafe that invited me, they didn't have matcha at all.

Jacque · 7:37

The second cafe that invited me, they just noticed they serve, they already serve their own matcha and they, they notice that there's a growth in, in the number of people who would order their drinks. So they wanted to invite me just to see if people would really like interact with it, I guess.

Jacque · 7:56

And also based on I, because I have a big like a really long menu. So that also allows the the cafes who invite me to see and test out their markets, like, what are their preferences, not just with matcha, but with like, the flavors. And it's really surprising because each and everyone will have different favorites.

Jacque · 8:18

Like, let's say in one place they'd be really like ordering the lavender matcha, and then the other, another spot would learn more towards Filipino flavors. So we would do like, coconut Panda matcha latte. So it changes for location. Yeah.

Jacque · 8:35

So it really changes for location. So I really feel like it helps them figure out what their market likes. So and also there are cafes who invited me and they serve solely matcha. So I'm like really confused why they would have me over.

Jacque · 8:50

But they said yeah, they just wanted to invite me to like, I guess to interact more with the community. And also most of the cafes here serve matcha from a specific region like Uji, just because it's really popular and commercialized, right? So I think whenever a cafe invites me, I always say that, oh, perfect.

Jacque · 9:11

It's because I serve matcha from a different region. So even if you currently have your own matcha menu, what I have will be different. So it's it's also going to help with your market to figure out their taste preference, if they like a certain region more than the other.

Jacque · 9:29

So yeah, you. Specialize on Yame. All right. I think I see a lot of Hoshino. Yeah. I. Really, really love it. So the first time I tried Hoshino, I was in New York. So I was going around trying out different like cafes. And then we walked into Setsugekka and then they had this menu which talked about Yame matcha specifically and talked about the region in depth.

Jacque · 9:57

So I was super, super interested. So they let me try. We ordered a bunch of things and tried it out. And I'm like, I really enjoyed this. And then after Setsugekka, I tried Kettl, who also served at that time, Yame matcha specifically for their drinks and their.

Jacque · 10:15

I think it was. Yeah. Not in their Brooklyn location, the other one. That's just the window. Yeah. So they were serving. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah. So they were just serving Yame matcha there. And I'm like, hey, I think I really like the flavor nuts on this one. And then since then, I got really hooked. Yeah.

Jacque · 10:32

I love it too. That roasty, toasty refreshing. I don't know. And I feel like that kind of flavor profile really matches the Philippine old taste profile. They're not used to it yet because they're familiar with Uji or let's say Atmos Shizuoka.

Jacque · 10:50

But I feel like when it comes to like if you're an introductor, I like if you're a beginner and you want to try something, I feel like Yame is like a good entry point for a lot of Filipinos. So that's what I'm trying to also share when I do my pop ups that there are different flavors of matcha depending on the region, depending on how it's processed or something. So it really helps also with education for me. Nice.

11:16

How do you approach that education? I know you do a lot of workshops as well. Like how do you decide what what makes the cut? Like what do you include when you're like someone doesn't know about matcha and like what do you include in your explanation or, and or what do you specifically don't include?

Jacque · 11:32

Like how do you approach a lot of those conversations? OK so actually I've only done a proper workshop once and a crash course once. So like in total, I've only done it twice, but a lot of people are already asking if I should, if I can do it for them and their cafes.

Jacque · 11:49

So I finally decided on doing it just last Saturday. So it took me a while to prepare for it. And then at first I was really having a hard time narrowing down the topics that I wanted to talk about because I could talk about so many things and it would take hours and hours.

Jacque · 12:05

But I had to like make sure that first they won't get information overload and also just to keep it slightly concise so that they can also get on their own journey and like discover stuff for themselves. So what I did was I definitely use my Urasenke training as like a foundation because I feel like not a lot of Filipinos practice Urasenke.

Jacque · 12:32

In fact, like in the association were only like 3 Filipinos there. So I use that as my foundation. I talk about the history a lot so that I can connect it to a tea ceremony, like how matcha is traditionally consumed. And then after that, I focus a lot on how matcha is processed because I feel like here in the Philippines, they're not really aware yet of like how much effort really goes into like a tin of matcha. So I talk about how it's shaded, how it can be machine picked or like handpicked and that even in the milling process that there's a stone mill and there's a ball mill. All of these like I've learned

Jacque · 13:20

also very recently. So I focus on all of those things and kind of like let them know that based on the different processes or the things that the matcha or tencha goes through, the flavors change, the quality changes also cause.

Jacque · 13:37

Well, yeah, I feel like the biggest gap when it comes to education here in the Philippines is the use of like ceremonial grade, that term as a marketing term. Everybody would either come up to cafes and be like, are you serving ceremonial matcha? Or like cafes would then end up using that term just to make sure that their customers know that they're serving high quality matcha.

Jacque · 14:00

But that's not always the case because that there's so much misinformation from the suppliers alone. When it comes to my workshops, I try to clear all of those things out as much as I can, because when I was starting out, I was also misled somehow. And then everything else I learned when we would visit Japan, when we would talk to some of the farmers and suppliers.

Jacque · 14:27

So that's when I learned the hard way in a sense, like they would say that doesn't exist here or that's not appropriate. So I just so I make sure that I share everything that I was looking for when I was starting out. Yeah. So I, I start there and then like kind of like expound on certain things when I see that they're curious about something. So I always encourage them to ask questions, especially if I feel like they have, they want to know something that I didn't include in the workshop.

Jacque · 15:02

So I always tell them like just keep asking questions. If it doesn't pop up now, like you can e-mail me, I can definitely respond to you. So yeah. So that's how I try to put together my My Workshop outline. Makes sense? So so Jack, when you host a workshop or a class, what are some of the aha moment for the audience to find like super interested or get them super inspired to, you know, want to learn more about matcha or drink more matcha? I think the processes that kind of like makes them realize how much effort goes into their bowl of matcha. So they kind of like put more value to it. They now want to learn more

Jacque · 15:43

about it in a sense that So what kinds of cultivars are in my mind? How was it processed? Was it handpicked? Was it machine pick? Is it first flush, second flush? So they now, you know, the wheels kind of turn on in their heads by having the right questions to ask. So I feel like that's their aha moment, that it's not as simple as just ground green tea that there, there, there goes like, yeah, there's so many things that go behind it for it to be produced like that.

Jacque · 16:15

So they also understand why certain things can also be expensive while others can be like cheaper. So they now know the reasons why the prices also fluctuate. So yeah, I feel like it's really figuring out all the effort that goes behind the production of Matcha.

Jacque · 16:34

It's not just ceremonial matcha, right? It's like what kind of bar you know, what year does it harvest or what's the flush and. You know, what's the, it's really great because like even now, I would share with them that a lot of the new brands that are, let's say Ooika, MTCH, they're very transparent when it comes to their labeling and they kind of label their matcha just like specialty coffee.

Jacque · 17:03

And then I tell them that most brands, most of the newer brands actually label their their matches a little more like transparent, but like big brands from, from Japan, they're a little more secretive about it. I guess they don't really share that information so easily because even when I order my matcha, so I order a bunch from Horii Shichimeien and I order from Yamamasakayama and I order from another farmer.

Jacque · 17:33

It's a family owned company, Koga Chaen, Yame. Out of everyone, I think it was just Koga Chaen who was willing to kind of share more details about their tea. So they'll tell me more about it, like how long it's been shaded, what are the cultivars present in it.

Jacque · 17:52

But when I asked the other companies, they're a little more hesitant to share. They'll say that it's a secret. It's like a trade secret that they can't share. So yeah. We've gotten that answer a lot, too. Yeah, that's the hard part.

18:06

Like I feel like I have to gain their trust 1st and I feel like I'm only scratching the surface, but yeah. Same. So for for the near future, I guess in Philippines, Jack, how do you see the development of specialty matcha? Do you see it as, you know, kind of like a movement that's happening in some other countries as well? Like people are focusing on, you know, single origin single cultivar, they're drinking more usucha. Or do you see like the consumers are also generally more interested in like matcha mixed drinks? And do you see that, you know, being maybe a mix or do you see a geographic difference, for

Jacque · 18:43

example, like maybe people in Manila is more interested in, you know, single cultivar or somewhere else? Actually, I feel like right now the Filipino market, they're more interested in mixed drinks, at least the general public.

Jacque · 18:57

But there's already like a growing community of like home Brewers who are more detailed when it comes to the matcha that they're drinking. So they are now exploring single origins, although they still drink it with milk still or they turn it into desserts. But I always think of it as how specialty coffee grew here as well.

Jacque · 19:21

Like people really started with all the sweet stuff 1st, and then eventually they transitioned to just drinking the matcha or the black coffee on its own. And then eventually they got really obsessed with pour overs, which to me feels like usucha and koicha also.

Jacque · 19:39

Yeah, it's more volatile, the flavors, it's more subtle. So I really feel like the Philippine market is heading there because matcha has been available here for a long time. But it's always the sweet stuff. So we've always had like soft syrup, we've always had like matcha lattes, but it was only that for the longest time. So only in the past few years have I seen a lot of experimental drinks using matcha. And I'm really hopeful that eventually people are going to be more open to drinking it on its own. Because right now there's only one place in Makati that kind of serves usucha and not even koicha yet, just usucha. So they would have like a tea

Jacque · 20:24

degustation and it's like they'll serve matcha as a latte, they'll serve matcha as an ice cream, and then eventually they'll have you transition to like drinking matcha as an usucha. So there's only one place who does that, All of the cafes or all of the brands that have been coming up. Right now they're focused on mixing it with lattes because I think that's how the social media presence is like where it's at.

Jacque · 20:51

Also like everyone likes mixing it with drinks because it looks cute, it looks pretty, They do the layers. So I feel like we're there now, but there's so much more room for improvement. Or like people are hungry to also like explore matcha so. That's wonderful.

Jacque · 21:08

Actually, with the brand that I'm putting up, that's what I wanted to focus on because right now with all the pop ups that I'm doing, it is very fast-paced. It's still very cutesy. It's still very like fun mixed drinks, right? But once in a while, I serve usucha in certain places, have a warm welcome to it in a sense that a lot of people order. So the biggest one, I think I've had like 12 orders of usucha and that was the biggest for me.

Jacque · 21:35

These people were so curious and I'm like, nobody orders usucha. So I'm super happy when like people order at least once. But there's a place that ordered like 12, people were open to try it. So I feel like, OK, as long as it's like presented in a way that won't intimidate them, I feel like they're open to try it.

Jacque · 21:55

So yeah, like I'm really excited for for for the matcha market here. Like, yeah, going back to the brand that I'm putting up is that I wanted it to be a mix of traditional and contemporary, just because I still wanted rooted in the Urasenke practice that you appreciate every single detail. You kind of take in the moment, you enjoy the silence. So I wanted to highlight that, but also not like intimidate other people who have never gone through like a tea ceremony practice before or at least like a tea ceremony in general. So that's what I want.

Jacque · 22:34

I want to do. I actually really look up to Jev of MTCH because I'm like, yes, that's like a perfect balance. Like when you enter his shop, which I've never been to yet everything that I'm hearing is that no matter what your level is when it comes to your matcha exposure, you'll have enjoy something there. And I think that's really great because it's like not just helping people be educated, but, you know, they won't feel alienated or they won't feel, like out of place. So yeah, I really hope that it's a. Really well designed, well rehearsed experience. Ryan and I went there a couple.

Ryan · 23:09

Times you can really capture anyone from anywhere in their consumer journey in matcha so that. That was really like. Yeah, yeah. Because let's say, let's say a group of friends enter and like, what if you're the only one who likes drinking koicha?

Jacque · 23:25

I mean, what, what are the other people going to drink? Right. But when you enter a place like MTCH, like they can find something, even if it's, say, a dessert. So it's great. It's very accessible. It's not intimidating.

Ryan · 23:39

So that's, that's something that I want to see here in the Philippines. And yeah, hopefully in the next year or two there'll be more cafes here that focus on matcha. Yeah, and something I think MTCH does really well is they care a lot about the quality of both ends is a place that specializes in specialty mixed drinks. I feel like the usucha there is kind of not good sometimes in a lot of cafes.

Jacque · 24:05

And then so like as you work your way up the ladder, you try the usucha. It's like, well, I don't like this. Probably not using very good matcha. Yeah. Or the other way to like a special or like a really specialty place. It's really more traditional, more everything right, like might water down the mixed drinks. So it's that spectrum is really rare I've noticed. That's what I try to do with my with my pop ups like because a lot of people, they get turned off with drinking usucha just because let's say they try drinking their latte grade matcha on its own and of course it's going to be astringent. Of course it's going to be

Jacque · 24:42

bitter. There won't be sweetness there sometimes. So they get really turned off. They'd be like, no, I don't like drinking it on its own. This is great. That's why I like mixing it with milk and sugar. So I always tell them to like, don't let that stop you. Like for sure there is something that you will try that will change your mind.

Jacque · 25:03

So that's what I do like I, I, when I do pop ups, I actually bring different kinds of matcha for usucha and then I ask them for their preference. I let them smell it. I kind of let them like, you know, play around with the tin and see what they what they like to try.

Jacque · 25:19

So sometimes they ask me what the flavor notes are so at least it doesn't come as a shock. So that's how I try to encourage people to order something that they've never really tried before, because most of the people here would really geared towards the lattes, yeah. I think in most of the world too, even Jev was saying at MTCH it's like 70% of their business is still in mixed drinks. Yeah, yeah.

Ryan · 25:47

So I think that's just where most consumers are at, which is good. It's a good thing you have to everyone. Yeah, I start somewhere. Yeah, because at coffee, the coffee industry also started that way. Like I would always say like, don't be discouraged because a lot of us started with like a really sweet vanilla latte before we transition to like being able to drink like an Americano on its own.

Ryan · 26:10

So it's it's really like a journey. Yeah, and you get a specialty coffee scene. Zongjun and I took our first trip to Manila in the Philippines in 2018, and we were trying to find cafes to work out of specialty coffee. We were like really into that.

Ryan · 26:26

And we found one really good one in Makati. And maybe there were others, but we had trouble finding them. And then we were just back two years ago, like boom, wow, everywhere. Like the the speed of that in the past four years, like, and it's crazy.

Ryan · 26:44

Same in China, same in even Bangkok, like all of like a lot of these places, just the specialty coffee scene has gone from niche to pretty mainstream. And I bet the curve on matcha. I hope it looks the same. I know. I really hope it goes the same for matcha.

Jacque · 27:00

It might take like a year or two years, but definitely I feel like the boom is going to happen. It's happening. So yeah. But I understand about the specialty matcha. It's crazy. Like before, we will only get to visit one or two cafes that we would like.

Jacque · 27:16

And then now wherever we go, may it be let's say Kids in City or Passing or Makati, we'll always find a specialty coffee shop. It's not so hard to find anymore. So yeah, so when you guys come back, there's so many things to try. Like, can't wait, Yeah.

Ryan · 27:32

What does the current landscape look like? For matcha. Larger coffee for matcha. Cafe No for matcha. Well, right now there's a lot of brands that are coming up. Some of them are like actual spaces, meaning they have like a cafe.

Jacque · 27:49

So a lot of it have been opening in Manila like in in one St. alone, let's say I know in Cajun City, 2 have opened in the past few months. And then I would see also places in Davao. So that's like a province, Davao and Pampanga and Cebu, they would open up specialty matcha places. So there's a handful already who have physical spaces. Then there's a lot more of people selling matcha under their own brand.

Jacque · 28:22

So now, like when I started posting on my Instagram, like I feel like I discover a lot of them more like, because they either like show up on my, my explore page or something, or like their ads pop up in my feed. Like just this week, I think I saw three people who launched their own matcha brands in the recent months.

Jacque · 28:43

So those people don't really have their own space yet. So what they do is they sell their matcha either via e-commerce or in Manila. Bazaars are a big thing. So these are Christmas bazaars where you sell like small businesses can sell their their merchandise.

Jacque · 29:02

So there are a few brands who also show up there and then some do consignment. So there's a lot of deli shops here, let's say groceries, high end groceries. They would have matcha now from local brands to take private labeled stuff. Yeah, interesting.

Jacque · 29:22

It's really growing really, really fast. Even with people who own coffee shops, like my husband and his siblings, they also see the the growth of people ordering matcha. So at first what I noticed with specialty coffee shops is that they don't really invest in their matcha lineup that much. So there are still specialty coffee shops in Manila that just serve matcha to kind of like satisfy the market a little bit. But it doesn't mean that they have the same level as like same, same quality as their coffee. It's just like satisfy the crowd, right? There are still a few of those, but so many people are now realizing that, hey, we need to

Jacque · 30:06

like take it seriously. We really have to have a proper matcha menu because so many people order them already or like look for it like, yeah, even here in Subic, it all started as like matcha lattes only. So when we tried serving usucha, like having koicha and serving usucha, not a lot of people were interested.

Jacque · 30:28

But when we kind of introduce a menu that's not just a simple matcha latte, people were really interested in trying and they would order and try different things. So I feel like, OK, it's like, it's really like coffee. They want variety. Now they they're not just satisfied with just a vanilla, not vanilla latte, but they're not just satisfied with like a matcha latte.

Jacque · 30:52

They're willing to explore and try different things. So yeah, now I'm seeing a lot of coffee shops investing in their matcha and they're sometimes realizing that they now serve more matcha sometimes than coffee. At least I have a client that's like that.

Jacque · 31:11

They started as a coffee shop. I have two clients. I have two clients that they started as a coffee shop, solely coffee. And then eventually people were looking for matcha. They started serving matcha and then now they tell me that's their top selling drink.

Jacque · 31:26

It's not the coffee anymore. So I'm like, OK, OK, that's, that's good to hear. I mean, that's really good to hear because you'll see, you'll see the growth. But also from a consumer's perspective, I feel like a lot of people prefer making their matcha at home just because I feel like they're not as satisfied with the ratios that certain places offer. So even if they're like a matcha centric cafe or a specialty coffee shop, I feel like most of the matchas are not as potent or as strong as like home Brewers would like it to be. And that includes me.

Jacque · 32:04

Like, I really like my matcha strong. I don't want to just drink like a Milky drink. Yeah. So I want to be able to enjoy the flavors of matcha and yet the creamy milk based drink, Right. So I think that's where all of these new establishments need to find the balance, Like they really should find the right ratio so that they can also capture the people who prefer drinks that are stronger and I guess more matcha flavor. Absolutely.

Jacque · 32:34

Options like have the diversity. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. BCH or Capture One? There's there's two cafes in the Philippines that offer additional doses, right? So if you want like an extra strong matcha, but only two people offer that for now. So imagine all the other cafes who already serve matcha, they don't have it on their menu yet.

Jacque · 32:59

So I feel like they should, yeah. Be a default they should do like a single espresso, double espresso kind of concept. Exactly. There's no transition so well. Now you can order an extra shot. You can do as like as many as four shots in your drink, so I feel like you can do that with matcha too for people who just want to enjoy one but really strong drink.

Ryan · 33:23

What are the standard doses that you see like what are the ranges of recipes and then how have you formulated all of your drinks and like what how do you think about dosing or whisking ratios and all of that? Because for now, a lot of the cafes that I know would usually use 2 grams for a 12 ounce drink. Like I think some cafes even do like 2G or 3 grams for a 16 oz drink.

Jacque · 33:49

And I find that too little. And to be honest, I feel like it's because that's what's available on the Internet. Also like when you look for matcha recipes, it would be like a usucha recipe that would pop up. Like 2G of matcha is considered one serving.

Jacque · 34:07

So I feel like they just take that information and like run. So yeah, so even my friends who started drinking matcha, they would always, they would always ask me like, hey, mine kind of tastes bland or doesn't taste as good.

Jacque · 34:22

And then I asked them about their ratios and it's always just a 2G. So with the with the recipes that I use for the pop ups, it really is from my personal preference or my husband because we're the only like we, we, he's the only one who gets to try my drinks before I serve them to the public. So.

Jacque · 34:43

If it can. Pass yeah, if it doesn't pass his standards, like we won't do it. And yeah, I make sure that it's my personal preference because I also, I'm not confident to serve something that I don't like myself. So during that time when I was developing the recipe, I would start at 4G for a 12 ounce cup.

Jacque · 35:04

So I would do 4G at first. I think I started at 5:00 and then it was too strong. So we did 4, at least for the matcha that I'm currently using. And then, yeah, I just make sure that it would fit like a 12 ounce cup. But a lot of people are now asking for a bigger size.

Jacque · 35:24

But the concern is if if you go bigger, you add more matcha. So to me it's like around 6 grams for a 16 oz cup or more even. And that would of course increase the costs because I'm. Sorry, I mean too. Yeah, a lot of caffeine. So I always this, I always tell them that when I serve you 4G of matcha, consider that as like a double shot already because it's like you drinking 2 two cups of matcha and it's, it can, it can get really intense.

Jacque · 35:56

And then if I serve like a six gram latte, that's like triple shot and it's going to keep you up for a while because it doesn't have like that curve, right? You don't crash. You're just like awake and focus the whole time. So, so that's what I do because yeah, a lot of the things that I hear is that, you know, they don't, they don't like the flavors just because they don't taste the matcha. Like most of the time the milk overpowers it just because the ratio is off or like they don't use the right milk. So, oh, that's one of the things that I also learned when I was doing all of these pop ups is

Jacque · 36:30

that I tried different milks and sometimes I, I realized that when the fat content of the milk is too high, it really just covers everything. You won't taste so much at all, even if you put 6g. So it will just taste like milk.

Ryan · 36:48

So there's a lot of experimentation, but I feel like I didn't really deep dive yet. Like it was just me experimenting and then I found something that worked and then that's what I served. Like I kind of got lucky. How do you do the base? Do you hot whisk?

Jacque · 37:04

How do you do the ratio for the actual whisking base? Like what's what's the? Do you have a standard recipe? Yes, yes. So what I do is I always mix it with 50 grams of water, so 4G of matcha to 50 grams of water and then I always do 75°C. Some cafes offer like cold whisking method but to me I really don't believe in it because I feel like I need to introduce heat so that I can bring out all the flavors of the matcha or else again it'll disappear in the milk. Then Filipinos like things sweet, so my sweetener is roughly like at 20 grams.

Jacque · 37:47

Some people ask for more so that's let's say just a simple syrup or like a flavored syrup. I'll do like 2025 depending on the customer and then I'll fill up the rest with milk. But my milk would usually just be 110 to 120 grams.

Jacque · 38:08

Wow, it's a very concentrated beverage. Yeah. OK. And then what I realize or what I see during my pop up is that they really, really appreciate the fact that they can see how green it is and then when they drink it, they can really taste the matcha. So even if we do like flavored matcha lattes, they can still taste it without it being over overpowering. Yeah, I think MTCH uses similar ratios. It's like they're very concentrated beverages and you really taste it.

Jacque · 38:42

And also one of the things that I do is that when someone I, I usually serve two kinds of matcha I have, I always have two kinds of matcha powders with me when I do my pop ups. So 1 is a stone milled matcha that I use for plain matcha lattes. So that when people ask for a matcha latte with or without sugar, I know that they'll enjoy the flavors. And then I get that my second matcha, which I use for all my flavored drinks is a ball milled matcha. And then that one's a little more bitter. There's a little more boldness to it because I feel like I need that kind of matcha so that it will translate to my to my flavored drinks and it won't get

Jacque · 39:26

lost. So that's one of the things that I do. I don't use just one matcha for all the drinks. And to think, if I had the space, if I had the time, I would probably have different kinds of matcha per drink. Yeah. But like, right now we're like, I only do the pop ups with my husband or with my sister-in-law.

Jacque · 39:43

And we're like three people Max. And that's like, not enough hands. Well, that's way better than what most people do. I mean, even having two it's it's a rare sight for a cafe program too. Yeah, yeah, that's what I know. What do you spend like?

Zongjun · 40:00

So we're developing matcha equipment and trying to optimize workflows. Like where do you spend the most time in the preparation step? Like if there's anything that could be automated away or something that we could design certain features for to solve problems like.

Jacque · 40:19

Where? Where would be the low hanging fruit as you see it? I think the one that takes the most time is sifting the matcha and whisking it. Like to me I've tried pre sifting my matcha before a pop up but let's say sifting 500 grams of matcha the day before is like too stressful for me and then only to find out that the next day they're going to get a little clumpy.

Jacque · 40:41

So I, I shifted from pre sifting my matcha to just sifting it on the spot. And that takes time for me. That takes time. Even if I, I, I receive sift from, is it Miseco, the one from Malaysia? It's a brand from Malaysia. So their sift is slightly bigger than the usual sift. So that one helped in a sense that when I put like 4 or 8 grams of matcha in it, it won't like explode when I try to sift it.

Jacque · 41:12

So yeah, that's one thing. I feel like sifting takes a lot of time. And then the whisking, just because there are times that I would whisk one or two servings in one bowl and it kind of takes a while for me to get all the matcha incorporated with the water.

Jacque · 41:29

So yeah. But everything else that he put in, the syrups and the milks and the ice, like my husband, and he has a system for it. It's really smooth. But then I feel like sometimes he does more than I do, but it takes time just because I have those like, little roadblocks.

Zongjun · 41:47

So yeah, it would be the sifting in the whisking, I think. The dosing too, I found even in like my own preparation, like the dealing with dry matcha powder is so like so messy. It's so. Messy. So messy it's hard to wait. Gets everywhere.

Jacque · 42:04

You can't have any water near it like it's the. I like I would notice that if a certain place where I do my pop ups is kind of humid, it makes it worse. Like I feel like my matcha sticks to all my utensils when the place is humid. So that's one thing Also.

Jacque · 42:23

So sometimes when I'm doing my setup, I'd be like, oh, it's a little humid in this place. I feel like I should, you know, clean my utensils once in a while or else it's all like super green because it clings to it because I'll notice.

Jacque · 42:36

It it's good to know. It's humid here, but there are some spaces when it's indoors that it's extra humid. So the matcha powder gets really, really like staticky and would like stick to all my stuff. And you're right, those say, ah, another one is the scale 'cause I use a scale, I think it's Timemore.

Jacque · 42:58

So I have two. The other one is a newer version and I didn't realize that it doesn't it it's not as accurate as it gets older. Does that make sense? I feel like when I do it drips when yeah, it drips. Like when I use my new way, my new scale, it's more accurate.

Jacque · 43:15

I'd be like when I use my old scale, I would need to do like 2 scoops. So how long have I have I been dosing it wrong? Like I would have those thoughts. So I would have those thoughts because sometimes like the slightest difference also matter, right? Like.

Jacque · 43:29

Yeah, totally does so. Yeah, I guess half a gram is huge when you're talking about matcha. Exactly. So yeah, I guess all of those things before you pour out the matcha, it's the dosing, the sifting and the whisking, which kind of means all the.

Ryan · 43:49

Whole process. The whole process of like handling matcha, that's the hardest part, yeah. How we can definitely relate to all those problems and we're not even, we're not even pop up operators. It's just in our like testing. How future products can need some headaches? Yes, it would be really, really helpful. And you're right.

Jacque · 44:10

Like, I've seen your bowl, but I don't have it yet, so I'm gonna get one soon. We'll send one to you. We'll send one to you. Thank you. That's our pleasure. Because I really like the idea that you streamlined it for coffee, coffee shop use, because they're already like using like traditional tools, but like it's not as efficient. And I really appreciate like as simple as like a katakuchi or like a spouted bowl.

Jacque · 44:42

It's already super helpful. So yeah, I look forward to more products that you guys will develop that will definitely help in like serving matcha in a commercial way. Yeah, thanks. That's our goal. Yeah, even this the the mills, right?

Jacque · 44:59

Like my goal is to have a mill here in the Philippines, but I feel like an ishi-usu is too big an investment to have here. And when I heard Jeff's interview with you guys and he said he doesn't want to do it again, I'm.

Jacque · 45:15

Like, oh, he's like a similar thought. I was like, oh wow, interesting. Right. Like this. I got inspired by Marc at Ooika. He started with two and then he now has four mills and I'm like, dude, how does he get to do it? He's so far from Japan.

Jacque · 45:33

What if something breaks? Like who fix? It and it's not cheap. So my goal was to like eventually have one in the Philippines, but then Oh no, what about like the after sales care? What about like if something happens to it, I wouldn't know how to deal with it yet. So it might be too much.

Zongjun · 45:54

So I look forward to your mill like and I hope like you get to launch it soon. The timelines just keep getting delayed and delayed and but hopefully by end of January, beginning of February ish nice, we will have something mechanically that we are finally happy with.

Zongjun · 46:14

That's exciting. That's not too far. Not too far if it all works, it's mechanically so different than a coffee grinder because they you have so much pressure and just even like the motor requirements in this type of thing, it's just have to keep reengineering.

Zongjun · 46:29

The belt comes off, something breaks, it's like. So it's a lot of iteration. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can just imagine. I can just imagine. As part of the we know it. Needs to really last part of the. Fun. It'll all be worth it. It's like it's crazy.

Ryan · 46:47

It'll all be worth it when it's finally out and people are actually using it already. Yeah, absolutely. It'll be a very exciting day. All right, so just to wrap up one last question. I wanted to ask you a little bit more about the brand you were launching and like when and when it is and what it is and whatever information you can share about. Yeah, sure.

Jacque · 47:11

So the brand that we're launching is actually called Kamai. So Kamai is spelled as KAMAI. So it was derived from the word kamaimasu from Japan, which means care. And then when you translate, when it's in Filipino, kamay means hand.

Jacque · 47:35

So yeah. So we wanted to, it was like a way for us to to to show the care that goes into your tea from like harvesting from Japan to like serving it to you as a guest. So we wanted to incorporate that. My goal for this is to have I have three faces for it. So the first place will be like an ecommerce site. So it will start with the created matcha first from different well known brands from Japan. And then eventually I will be launching my own brand of matcha.

Jacque · 48:13

And then after that is to help share really good matcha to other cafes too. So eventually supplying to these cafes like B2B. And my third phase, which I'm most nervous about, is to have our own space. Yeah, my vision for it is that it will be like a slow bar so people can come in, enjoy their time for themselves or with their friends. It won't be as rushed as other cafes. And yeah, ideally we get to serve matcha to everyone who doesn't matter what their background is, doesn't matter what their exposure to matcha is or Japanese teas in general, because we really, we don't want to just focus on matcha. Actually, we wanted to serve

Jacque · 48:56

Japanese teas, other Japanese teas as well, because I guess a part of the learning is that when we traveled to Japan and did all of these farm tours, we were also able to try other Japanese teas. That kind of blew our minds.

Jacque · 49:09

So we wanted that same experience for other people too. So yeah, I'm a little nervous because this is like, no kidding, three years in the making, kept getting pushed back and pushed back and pushed back. But yeah, 2025 is the year.

Ryan · 49:27

So we're hopefully launching it soon. It's awesome. I love the concept of a slow bar. This is it's very exciting because it's, you know, it's one step less commitment than a tea ceremony, but like one step more focused than just quick grab and go. So it's like the perfect to meet in the middle of this kind of pour over reflection moment.

Jacque · 49:51

You're like, there's some waiting, there's some dialogue like it's I love this concept. Yeah, because I really wanted to have people experience a tea ceremony without having to step into a tatami room. It's a little more relaxed in that sense. But you have all the principles of the chanoyu practice there, like the tranquility, purity, respect. So I wanted them all to feel that when they enter the space. And yeah, so I'm really excited.

Jacque · 50:17

Love the concept and good luck as you launch through each of those phases. And we can't wait to try it in each phase. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you for having me and I really hope that when you visit the Philippines, we'll get to see each other and hopefully for sure that space has been launched so I can invite you over that. Would be awesome.

Ryan · 50:38

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. All right. I think that's all we have time for. So if you enjoyed this episode, please consider sharing it with a friend or giving us five stars on whatever platform you're listening to. It really helps us and other people discovering this podcast too.

Ryan · 50:55

So thanks so much for listening and we'll see you in the future. Take care. Thanks. Thank you.