Interview with Industry Veteran, Jules Reyes

Ryan · 0:00

Hello and welcome to the Specialty Matcha Podcast. My name is Ryan. This is Sam. Hello. Hello. And we're the cofounders of Sanko Matcha Products. Yeah, we launched this podcast to discuss our learning journey, matcha, share startup stories and interview experts.

Ryan · 0:15

And today we have Jules Reyes joining us for a conversation. Welcome, Jules. Thanks for having me. I feel like I've memorized your your intro at this point. I was I was reciting it in my head. Thanks for having me. It's so great to be with you both. Yes.

Jules · 0:29

Thanks so much for coming on. And I guess sort of our standard first question whenever we bring anyone on is if you could tell us a little bit more about like your background and your matcha journey. Yeah, well, my name is Jules Reyes. It's so wild to say this, but I've been working in the matcha realm for a decade now.

Jules · 0:50

It feels just like yesterday that I started my first matcha page for SF. So it's been a wild journey, very unconventional journey. My background is actually an education. I aspire to be a high school history teacher. Prior to starting my matcha pages, I was working in education and was feeling like that was my path. I was so happy content.

Jules · 1:12

Every day was a different day and my path shifted, you know, from working with K through second students on the autism spectrum wanting to be a high school history teacher. I met my partner and we Co founded a nonprofit called Saints of Steel that works with displaced communities across the US. And around that time we kind of had this this moment. I was grappling with what I wanted to do with my life because this vision for the nonprofit and the work we were doing there was very much her, her, her path. And thankfully I had a group of people around me who knew me so well and cared about me to hold

Jules · 1:48

the mirror up and say, Jules, anytime you talk about matcha, you just light up. And I didn't recognize it then. Many people refer to me as the Bubba Gump of matcha. How he would just, you know, he loves shrimp and he wanted shrimp in every which way. For me, it was matcha.

Jules · 2:03

I was like, have you had this? Have you had matcha butter? Have you tried a matcha bath? Have you tried a matcha facial mask? And thankfully I had the space to to to be able to express my love and passion for matcha there. But in terms of, you know, my work in matcha, I'm most known for my time at Jade Leaf.

Jules · 2:20

I was a founding team member, their first hire as brand manager and a part of the team that brought the company to acquisition. And it was so interesting how I came to Jade Leaf again, I mentioned I had a very unconventional path. I was working on my matcha community pages. And so that was really the way.

Jules · 2:38

My entry point to the industry, Instagram was huge for me, and it completely shifted my path. Working on Saints of Steel, still working in education. I started my matcha pages in SF because it was so difficult back in 2014 and 2015 to find matcha in San Francisco. It's not like today where you could walk into any cafe and and nine times out of 10, they likely have matcha on their menu.

Jules · 3:03

Then it was, yeah, I was lucky if I went to a cafe that someone on Yelp said had matcha and they actually had it on their menu. It was such a frustrating experience for me because I didn't have a car at the time. So I would take public transit and it would be an hour plus to get to this destination to find out that they phased out their matcha or that it was a seasonal item. And so that was the impetus of my matcha. SF page was a visual bucket list, more so for myself that I didn't recognize, would, you know, get the attention of hundreds and then thousands of people who were experiencing a similar pain point as myself.

Jules · 3:40

And that opened up the opportunity for me because people would ask, hey, what are your tips for LA and what are your tips for New York? And at the time, I didn't really spend much time in LA and New York. So I did a lot of work on the back end to just curate and do research. A lot of time, hours spent trying to figure out when matcha was on the menu, what they had on the menu and if it was still on the menu.

Jules · 4:02

Because the last thing I wanted was like, I was like, hey, I went out of my way and this isn't here like you said it was going to be. And that opened the door. I mean, it's, I mean, unconventional is like the the perfect word because I'd never thought that this would transition to me now Co hosting the US's first matcha festival in San Francisco. So now taking the the digital online community in person and and sharing space with 2000 plus people was incredible. And I Co hosted the second one in San Francisco a year after. And then we wanted to bring it to LA. And I was fair at this time, fairly green, coming from education, knew nothing about

Jules · 4:41

marketing, knew nothing about events. But I just had this desire to just want to see my vision come to life, of wanting to curate this experience for people who were just like me and loved matcha. And in hosting or really planning the LA event I mentioned earlier, events are a beast.

Jules · 4:59

And I quickly learned that leading up to the event, I, there were unfortunate circumstances where I injured myself severely and had surgery a few weeks prior, which completely impacted the vision that I had for the event.

Jules · 5:14

And I think at that time, I had a hard time letting go of things. I've gotten a lot better at it where, you know, I now know how to rally support and how to lean on people around me. But then I wanted to do everything myself, despite having an incredible team of volunteers who wanted to help. And that event painful physically, but also painful emotionally with the outcome of the event not having the vision executed.

Jules · 5:40

In retrospect, I didn't recognize that this event in LA would open up the door for me to be here today to speak with you. It completely shifted my path in the most beautiful way. Although then I didn't recognize it because I was in the midst of, you know, just a year long plus depression following the events. But coincidentally Jade Leaf was a sponsor of the event. So this is kind of a full circle moment where they sponsored the events.

Jules · 6:07

They were really happy with the outcome and Mark has continued to be supportive of me, offered me a full time position. Prior to this conversation it was just Mark and Will working on the back end on Jade Leaf and so they offered me to be their brand manager. Which was scary because again, my only experience with marketing was very informal through my matcha pages at the time and it was more so passion project. So I politely declined because I was afraid, but at the same time I wanted to see my vision through for this LA event. I wanted to do it a second time, especially following the feedback that we got, which was

Jules · 6:45

really hard to receive. And I think anyone who works on something tries to externalize a vision that they have or bring a product to market or found a company knows that there are many challenges along the way and adversities that you face that people who are only in that arena can understand.

Jules · 7:04

And because Mark was in the arena, but I, I was pretty transparent. And I think you could hear my disappointment in my voice, you know, talking about the events. And Despite that, he was like, we, we want to work with you.

Jules · 7:16

So after much reflection, I circled back. And it was kind of a funny story because when he initially offered me the position, I politely declined. But he left the door open. And a couple of weeks later, I circled back and called him and I said, hey, Mark, I found the perfect person for you. And he was pretty guarded.

Jules · 7:36

He's like, OK, who? Which is like, not Mark, you know, very charismatic and whatnot. And and I said, well, you're going to love them. I think you're going to work really well together. They're aligned with with what you're wanting to do.

Jules · 7:49

And he's like, OK, well, who is it? He said it's me. And he's completely like, you know, like, yeah. He was just so happy and overjoyed. And we talked about what was next. So it was, it was just didn't interesting way of getting into very unconventional, but something that I have so much appreciation and gratitude for in terms of how it happened, the good and the painful.

Ryan · 8:11

Part Wow. I had no idea that all of I had heard about the festivals and the community pages, but I actually didn't realize it predated Jade Leaf. Yeah. Yeah. Wow, it's a really cool, like full circle story. Yeah, it really. Was.

Zongjun · 8:26

Very unconventional, but very conventional in the sense that it's really the passions of everyone that brings everybody together. Everyone coming together. Yeah. From, from all aspects of it. Yeah, that's thanks for bringing that up because I, I didn't quite connect the dots in that way.

Jules · 8:40

But it's something that when you're in it and you can't quite zoom out yet, you don't recognize, you know, how something could lead to the next. And now that so much time has gone, 10 years have gone by since I started my pages. Jade Leaf was acquired in 2021 and I I have so much more appreciation for all of the bumps in the road that happened along the way.

Ryan · 9:01

Inevitable bumps in the road. Crazy and Jade Leaf is is a huge success from like everything that I understand. I was actually talking to someone who was selling Matcha in the early 2000s and, and they were doing really well on Amazon and they said, you know, at one point, like I think she's even said it by name, like the Jade Leaf hit and they just like took over and like it has 100,000, nearly 100,000 consumer reviews.

Ryan · 9:27

Like that's insane for like a matcha CPG products. So like, could you walk us through a little bit about, you know, that part of your journey on scaling that brand and positioning and like, and getting to that point of ubiquity and, and consumer love? Like you look at the, the rating distribution, like how it's skewed up to like 5 stars.

Jules · 9:48

It's I'm really keen to learn more about that part of the journey. Yeah, I mean something that was apparent. So when I I started Jade Leaf, it was, I joined in 2019 and it felt very fast for me in terms of scaling the company. The company was acquired three years after I joined, but prior to that Mark and Will were building the company for five years.

Jules · 10:10

And so although it felt fast for me, I'm sure it didn't feel that way for them. And, and it's something that I think in terms of, you know, being fairly green to the industry at the time, being green to marketing and being green to matcha. And I also love that Matcha is so green. I was so hyper focused on skill acquisition. I think at the time I, I was very much felt like I had imposter syndrome, like, why do they want me? Why do they want to hire me?

Jules · 10:42

Why am I here? But now that I've had so much time, I can look at it from a different perspective and, and recognize I was so hyper focused on skill acquisition because I didn't have the formal background in marketing. I didn't quite know much about the matcha industry.

Jules · 10:56

Mark was my source of a lot of that education and, and really furthering my love in for for Japanese tea and for matcha that I was so focused on being able to lean in on my learning agility and acquire the skill sets I needed to lead marketing and and ultimately work alongside the team and building a multi $1,000,000 company. But something that I think and I still think differentiates Jade Leaf, especially at the time with the early matcha brands, there were a few really well known names, some household names and now you know, there's, so there's countless matcha brands, at least in the US Our

Jules · 11:33

community and, and being so customer focused was I think the biggest differentiator. And, and it came from a very genuine place because we leaned in on our community. We were very obsessed with who they were on a granular level, wanting to understand what made them tick, what motivates them, what about matcha, you know, excites them and what are the gaps that we could fill. And because we we really prioritize the community in many ways online and in person, I feel like that created such a genuine connection between the brand and the greater community. And in terms of some tactical things that we did in terms of, you know, Jade Leaf hitting the

Jules · 12:12

milestone of 100,000 plus Amazon reviews, that's not easy to do. And, and, and that's more so just the positive reviews. There's a lot we were, I, I know many brands and, and some of the clients I work with, it could be very challenging for them to receive constructive criticism, but we didn't lean away from it.

Jules · 12:28

And in fact, we leaned into it. There was a lot of constructive criticism, not only from the community, but from our competitors. And so we just focused on what we did really well. We stayed in our lane, we took the feedback from our community and we tried to, we used it to inform what we do next because we brought 20 plus products to market over over the course of our time.

Jules · 12:50

And it's something that I think, you know, when you're building a brand and you're thinking about marketing today, especially on social and following the pandemic, your community is going to be your greatest asset. So because we invested upfront in the community, I believe that that created just such a really beautiful relationship between the brand and the person who is experiencing our matcha to feel so compelled to take the time to write what their experience was. And there were things we invested in that that don't cost money, you know, like when you when you are working on some, I mean, aside from the marketing

Jules · 13:26

assets that you invest in, how you use those assets to create a genuine human connection. And I think that's something that some brands forget is that you're connecting with people. There's another person on the end of this.

Jules · 13:40

So how do you talk to a person and how do you not talk at them, but talk with them as if you're in dialogue. And that's something we took advantage of in any in every way. So whether it be from the assets or collateral that was included in our packaging that was housed in Amazon, that came and was delivered to them, there were moments where we connected the dots and said, hey, like creating a human experience and just reach out to us.

Jules · 14:04

Although technically that was Amazon's customer, we took that we leveraged that opportunity to draw a connection back to the brand. And you know, that was just one facet of it. We also have our, you know, ecom site and we're in big box retail.

Jules · 14:17

And so we wanted to make sure that, you know, the product itself was attractive and eye-catching and captivating so that they felt compelled. Because, I mean, I can't imagine today when when I walk in to a Target, a Whole Foods or a Walmart, there are so many Matcha, I mean, tea brands, it can be overwhelming. But how do you cut through all the noise? And being a person like a brand that is human, that imbues those human qualities, I think is the biggest thing that separates you from you and other players.

Zongjun · 14:50

Very interesting. Just out of curiosity, Jules, So I'm sure it would be, you know, it's, it would be far easier to manage a relatively smaller community in the beginning. But as the company scaled up and as the company grow, like how do you encounter the challenge of a much, much larger community to some extent, you know, like 1 to one communication might not just be viable from day-to-day basis. Yeah, I think that's where you brands invest in in incredible team members because it got to the point where initially I was, you know, one woman marketing team and it got it it we recognized we need more support.

Jules · 15:32

And so finding people investing in in incredible talent upfront to help create those connection points where it feels more personal. And at this stage with, you know, so much technology and AI, I'm sure, you know, there are ways to be able to have that run a little bit more efficiently and smoothly. But again, AIAI can't replace a person, although it can do it probably really well.

Jules · 15:58

There are things that we, you know, I personally, and there's one team member that I have brought with me to every company or client that I've worked with because she is so talented. She is so caring, so passionate about people and, and it doesn't matter if we're working with macho or another product, you know, within food and beverage or CPG.

Jules · 16:21

When you recognize the talent and the, the, that you're so aligned with the person that values the same thing you value and and also values with. When you're aligned in that way, it creates a moment where we, we as people and if you care, we'll retain information about your community members, no matter if it we're starting with a, a community of 100 people that has now grown to 60,000 plus there there's information housed in my brain about people who have followed me from Jade Leaf through my matcha community pages to now my personal page that I that that is just stored there because I care.

Jules · 16:57

And I think that's the difficult part when you're, you know, as a small startup or a founding team, you don't the people that you hire are going to be your your greatest asset. And it's something that I think you can especially in matcha because it's so niche. It's not to say that you can't hire talent that is so incredibly aligned and talented in terms of the expertise that they bring where there's they, they can bring that deep passion for.

Jules · 17:27

And, and it may not necessarily be about matcha, but when you can hire people who care about the product, who care about the industry and people in general, that translates over to the consumer. They can feel that you remember these little details that I think most brands glaze over.

Jules · 17:42

And it's hard to do that at scale. But when you have team members and you have an incredible CRM and, and all these other tools that you can use to be able to retain that information, it really helps you go the distance as a brand. And it's something like from the little things of using someone's name, you know, like if someone sends you Adm using their name, signing off with your name, circling back and saying it kind of reminds me of The Office.

Jules · 18:07

I don't know if you watch that show. Yes, I do. Michael had his own process of how he, I mean, he's such a quirky character, but he would write down weird little tidbits that the average person would probably not even care about in, in terms of the other person he's connecting with. And how he was able to be so successful in his relationships with his clients and customers because of the information he retained.

Zongjun · 18:33

It's like going that distance. And that's rare to come by these days because of the tools that we have accessible to us. For sure, yeah, it's the intentionality of all the gestures that really matter. Yeah, for sure. It's usually the goal of any like small business to eventually get to some sort of exit or some sort of acquisition, especially when you talk about like startup world, especially within like the CPG food industry space.

Jules · 18:58

So like what, what was it like going through an acquisition? Like, yeah, I'm sure it was a roller coaster. Like you got to have the startup journey kind of from both endpoints and the good endpoint because you know, the other is like failure. Like, like, what was, what was it like to live through that? Gosh, it was such a multifaceted experience. I often, and I think many people who have interacted with me during my time at Jade Leaf, whether it be on the partner side, my team, the community, could agree with how at least I viewed my work at Jade Leaf was the heartbeat of the company. I felt like I brought the soul.

Jules · 19:39

So going through an acquisition is exciting. You're like, wow, I had a hand in building in this company's success to the point where now there's this, you know, more resources available to us, There's greater opportunity to really further our vision and our mission.

Jules · 19:56

At the same time, heartbreaking to recognize that all the things that, you know, I, I think Mark and I and I can't speak to exactly his experience, but I think he and I had the most difficult time. And that's not to take away from the rest of the team's experience.

Jules · 20:11

But he and I were so immersed. And in the weeds of our community and. Becomes part of you, like your identity. Does it very much feels like a baby, you know, like I still go when I walk into the stores, I'm fixing the facings of the, you know, in, you know, retail stores that we're in today. I'm like, I'm looking at, I'm like, oh, this is crooked. And there's a level of care that you have even years later. And it's, it kind of felt like that baby was being taken away. And it's something for me that, you know, with all the hopes and the visions that we had and all the other things we wanted to explore, the other products that

Jules · 20:50

we wanted to bring them to market that never that we never saw to fruition was challenging for me. And so I, I think for me and for Mark, we kind of went through our own grieving process of what was and having to have to quickly acclimate and adapt to what is.

Jules · 21:06

And, you know, I think anyone who has gone through an acquisition has been a part of a founding team can resonate with that experience of, of, you know, having doing business as usual. You know, like as Mark and Will were navigating the deal and, and Mark was very much leading the deal. It, it was an interesting experience for me on the other end to, to, to also see it, although he never communicated it in words.

Jules · 21:29

I could feel the the grieving process happening and how it was challenging, although there was this so much excitement and elation around just building to this point now recognizing, OK, well, what what is next and all the uncertainty ahead.

Zongjun · 21:47

Yeah. So yeah, it was such a it's so multifaceted, but something that I'm very proud of. It's awesome. Yeah, I think we can relate a little bit, Ryan. Yeah, we can relate a little bit but yeah cuz we this is our second start up.

Jules · 22:02

The parts that I don't think many people talk about cuz in business, you know, like people often say, there's no room for emotion or vulnerability, but we're people, you know, and, and I think at the end of the day, really leaning in on your human experience. That's what has allowed me to connect with thousands of people in ways where I, I often receive messages today and people have never met in person, but they message me and say, I feel like I know you or there's this knowing this connection. And that's because there's this level of care that you imbue. And when you omit the human side from business, I feel like that can also create tunnel vision

Jules · 22:42

for some brands where they're just so focused on the end goal and not recognizing who is in front of them, you know, or what your experience is. Because you can draw from your experience as a person and have it inform what you do and how you navigate. I think it's something like the level of emotion, The emotive quality is something that I would want to see more, especially if you're working in marketing. It's all emotion, it's all connection. It's the entire.

Ryan · 23:08

Yeah, makes. Sense experience. And vulnerability can be in short supply. And that's, you know, really what I guess like opens, opens people, opens it up to kind of have other people also kind of share and be more vulnerable. And this is what I like.

Ryan · 23:25

This is what I don't like or oh, I'm very confused about how to whisk matcha properly. I find it very intimidating. I know that some of the audience questions are about like removing a lot of those barriers and in a lot of tea settings, you know, you walk into a tea shop and like you don't know what conversation you're about to enter into.

Ryan · 23:43

Might be, it could be super like hoity, toity, unfriendly, unwelcoming. It could be like way below the level of what you want. It's like a little more basic of a conversation. People I feel like people are sometimes hesitate a lot to open up, especially around their tea knowledge or tea journey or being explicit about what they want from a brand and interaction for tea gathering I.

Jules · 24:06

Agree, and I feel like the work that you're doing here with the Specialty Matcha Podcast is breaking a lot of those barriers and really allowing people to look within. When I, when I found out, found out about your podcast and the conversations that you're having, I'm like, this is what's this is what the industry needs. I was so happy.

Jules · 24:25

I was like, finally someone is talking about matcha at this level. And it's something that, you know, I think in terms of Jade Leaf, the matcha education and, and at the time and, and I've heard in several of your episodes you've talked about how a lot of the information is typically gate kept. It's not only at origin, but also within brands. And so as Jade Leaf was growing at the time, it was so difficult to find any information about a tea producer unless you worked in the industry, which I was Privy to that knowledge. But for the everyday consumer to find out where the exactly the matcha was sourced, what the

Jules · 25:04

cultivars are, who the tea producers are is, and it's something that was kind of frustrating for the team. It inspired a campaign that we led called the Noyer matcha campaign, where our goal was to humanize matcha. And at the time super rare. You couldn't, you couldn't access that information because many of our, the other players in the market were so protective over their source, whether it be Origin or the, the tea farmers or producers they worked with.

Jules · 25:32

Despite the fact that we likely, if you're selling matcha at scale, there are a handful of tea producers or farmers that you're sourcing from. And so it's interesting from that lens, recognizing what the gaps were and how much confusion that created for the consumer. Because I mean, when you look at specialty coffee, you can find out like from a granular level, what the off like, what the coffee is, where it was from, who grew it, how they grew it, how they processed it.

Jules · 26:03

I loved and admired that appreciate like that, that level of information that I think is starting. We're starting to see that trend here in the matcha world. It's still not as accessible. I think it's still creating a lot of confusion and and I can go down a rabbit hole later about that in terms of just, you know, the matcha shortage we're in right now and kind of what caused what caused that or, you know, just some opportunities there.

Jules · 26:31

But I deeply admire just to circle back, the work that you're doing to really create an opera, a line of communication between someone in the industry, someone who's interested in matcha and educate them in a with, with accurate information as opposed to someone's, you know, subjective thoughts of of matcha or what you know what it could be.

Zongjun · 26:54

Thank you so much. Yeah. Thank you. This is really also, you know, a really large part of the energy source of our journey too. Yeah. We almost, you know, take pleasures of interviewing people because it's so just so energizing to feel and sense all the passions coming from all corners of this community. It's a.

Jules · 27:16

It really is. And so I'm grateful that Sanko exists, the Specialty Matcha exists because, you know, working in the industry I mentioned, Mark was my source of tea education, Japanese tea education and matcha education. Prior to that, I just knew I loved matcha.

Jules · 27:32

I love the way that it tasted, but I didn't quite understand all of the nuances. And I remember Jade Leaf's parent company, he was working on the logo, and he asked me what he's like. What do you think this logo is? I now know it's a stone mill, but then I was like, I don't know, is that like, are those tea fields?

Jules · 27:50

Like it was just, I was so ignorant. And he eventually, you know, he's like, Oh no, it's just it's the pattern of a stone mill. And I remember, you know, like really loving matcha and the, the, the experience I had with it personally and how during my matchaversary my first year with Jade Leaf, they gifted me a beautiful kyusu and this assortment of gyokuro and sencha and all these different Japanese tea I knew nothing about like loose leaf tea just didn't even know existed. And that deepened my I just went down, I continued to go down a rabbit hole there, but working in the industry and being able to have industry friends from

Jules · 28:28

honestly, competitors, you know, like we, it's such a small industry. We all kind of know each other. You develop relationships and friendships. And I've learned so much from all of their perspectives that I, I do find that people on the other side of it behind the curtain, we want the same thing. We want to see matcha appreciated in the ways that we appreciate it.

Jules · 28:47

We want to see elevated. We, we want to highlight how beautiful the industry is and could be. And we know it's in decline, but I think we want to further and deepen people's love for matcha. But typically those conversations happen behind the scenes.

Zongjun · 29:02

And this is the first time, at least in your podcast, I'm hearing it happen in a public forum, which is so relieving. We're pretty surprised that like, no one, there was no other Matcha podcast. I remember when we first considered doing this, I was like, someone has got to be doing this. And I was like, oh, OK, well, I guess it's gonna be us. You're the 1st.

Zongjun · 29:25

It's yeah. No, it was, it was unexpected, very surprising. But but you know, we're happy to do. It and hope there's. More too. I think it was just really good timing because like after talking to so many people, there are just so many like minded people out there that are willing to share. Like I think really we just, you know, in a good time, you know, doing this podcast, offering this platform. Every corner of the earth to like, I'm just shocked. The conversations that I'm having, the number of like minded people in places, you just would have not guessed that there's someone like that.

Jules · 29:59

Like in like a small town in the UK. It's just like it's wild and interested in. It's a specialty product and it's all so recent. It's yeah. It's really exciting. In the Philippines, in Thailand and Middle East, like all these places? Wow.

Zongjun · 30:16

So very, very energizing too. So something I'm very curious about because you have such a unique perspective because now you like I part of your work is a consulting business. I'm working on positioning with other matcha brand, other matcha founders. So you get to probably see and hear a lot of conversations about the way people want to position their products and how they think about value prop, how they think about consumers, how they think about farmers.

Zongjun · 30:42

And I'm curious how you segment different founders. The way I segment is kind of like people are very farmer focused, you're very consumer focused and you're like very product focused and like of course everyone cares about each component. So I'm curious to hear like your take on like how I'm thinking through it.

Zongjun · 31:02

And I'm curious to hear like how how you see people approaching positioning the good, the bad, the ugly and kind of your state of the current matcha landscape. And also a follow up question on that industry veteran, how do you see all of these positioning changed over the past few years since you've been in this?

Jules · 31:22

Industry. Such a great question. Sorry, that was like 5 questions. No, I, I hope if I, I'm going to do my best, if I forget or, you know, just please circle back to any points that I might have missed. But you know, as an advisor and marketing consultant in the industry, it's true.

Jules · 31:41

Like there's so many conversations that I have and, and personally, it's having to separate myself from what I want as a person, like what I, I hope my hopes for the industry and, and recognizing the brand in front of me and what their goals are. And so it's something, you know, when I, I try to extract what's most compelling about a brand and their product and it's, you know, being able to work so closely with founders and leadership teams to understand what their goals are, you know, and, and again, separating my own personal goals. So I think that's the challenge is I see the opportunity and I find that it's, it's pretty rare

Jules · 32:19

for a brand to care about all of those facets that you mentioned. Typically it's like we're very product focused and this is what we want to bring to market For these reasons or and education doesn't quite it's not a priority, but sure if we have time, let's build it into the strategy.

Jules · 32:34

It all relates. I mean it all drives a brand forward to its end goal whether they recognize it or not. So my goal is to help connect the dots for them and build a strategy in a road map by reverse engineering what I hear their goals are and aligning it with some short term and long term goals. And the challenging part for me in this capacities, it's high level.

Jules · 32:55

I'm not as hands on. I'm sharing from my perspective, the opportunities that I see that align with their goals, especially as I learn the current state of their brand health. And when I get a grasp of what their brand health is by looking into the data and the metrics and, and just understanding how they're received by their current customer base and the perceptions of prospective customers, it gives me a better understanding of how to frame things. And my hope is that I can package it in a way for their team to execute.

Jules · 33:25

And so I think that's the challenging part is because I'm not as hands on as I'd like to be like I was at Jade Leaf of really having a hand in orchestrating how we navigate certain campaigns or initiatives or the things that we explore.

Jules · 33:39

I'm really teeing it up for their their teams and I hope they execute it. And I think that's the difficult part is sometimes they do and often times it, it, it, you know, it falls flat. That's the that's I think in in the work. There were, sorry, there were four other questions that you had.

Zongjun · 33:57

I think I think a couple of them were all answered. Well. Great. OK. But I guess the last part is, you know, throughout the past decade, like how have you seen the industry, but the industry change in terms of, you know, product positioning like consumer based drifting and all that? Yeah, the consumers have driven a lot of the change, which I'm, I'm very grateful for.

Jules · 34:19

So, you know, back in the day, I mentioned a lot of the brands were so protective over information that the specialty coffee realm just sharing so transparent in terms of what they communicate about who they were and what they were selling.

Jules · 34:33

And we started to see that shift and so brands started to recognize, oh, people want to be educated in matcha, something that one case study. And again, this is such an early time when I was at Jade Leaf Matcha Education, aside from Kettle, who I know we all love, Kettle continues to do an incredible job educating people, especially as people graduate from a matcha enthusiast to an aficionado and really wanting that level of information. But back in the day, that information was very challenging to access in a form that many people were consuming, which is social content.

Jules · 35:13

And so I had an experiment that I called an oxidation test that I ran at Jade Leaf. It was poorly done. I, I feel like it, it was, you know, and, and again, at the time, we were so early in a lot of things that I received a lot of constructive criticism. But again, it was a, it was a fun little project or case study that I ran over the course of weeks of putting. And I still have the matcha in a jar that's completely oxidized in the color of sand.

Jules · 35:41

But I, I kept a jar of matcha in an airtight clear container because I was trying to highlight the importance of storage and how light, heat and, and other factors impact matcha and in terms of the degradation of matcha that many people didn't quite understand. So as a brand, we could do our best job to preserve the integrity of the product.

Jules · 36:01

And once it leaves and, and it's opened by the consumer, we really need them. We, we're passing the baton over to them. And so that information didn't exist. We even at the time weren't talking about that. Like how do you properly store matcha? How do you care for it?

Jules · 36:18

What are some techniques that you can practice to really help to, to protect the integrity of the product? And so with the oxidation test, I kept it in a jar for several weeks. I would record, you know, how it would look over a period of time and it looked completely different. And I think many people, especially industry friends, were shocked.

Jules · 36:35

They're like, well, this is so cool. I never realized, like, I always thought about this but never did it. And a week after we shared that content, another big well known Matcha brand shared a similar test. They did a similar test.

Jules · 36:50

And so you started to see people when, when we were able to release that education and then we did a water temperature test, which again received a lot of criticism from people in terms of like, I really, I, I try to control the variables as closely as possible because I know that gosh, I could go down a whole rabbit hole because this is my biggest gripe with like a lot of the matcha taste testing that happens on social is that the variables aren't controlled. And anyways, for this water temperature test, I basically was highlighting the importance of water temperature as it relates to matcha in the matter

Jules · 37:26

of an hour, how quickly something oxidizes and the flavors change. And because that's that information was now we were starting to share it. People were so interested. It was one of the most highly engaged pieces of content that we did share and receiving so many comments and DMS, both positive and negative about it.

Jules · 37:47

And I'm so happy to see ten years later that the consumer now is just as obsessed about matcha education. Although I do see an opportunity for accurate education to be communicated to their communities. They should listen to this podcast.

Jules · 38:07

I think it's a it's it's fun of the great sources and very few sources that exist today, but you're starting to see them drive those conversations. So the point where now I visit Cafe partners and I visit industry friends who have tea shops and have businesses, and they're saying, yeah, we're getting all these questions about, you know, is this ceremonial grade or not? Or do you have this specific brand because someone heard a TikTok creator promote it.

Jules · 38:32

And although those conversations are much needed, I'm glad consumers are now asking, you know, questions about what quality of matcha is and how a Cafe prepares their matcha. It that information. I think still, there's still a lot of opportunity to even expand further.

Jules · 38:52

Yeah, that doesn't, that doesn't create this level of tunnel vision where a consumer only sees 1 brand as the brands. But there's so I mean, it's such a vast world of matcha out there to explore, especially as someone deepens their love and wants to develop their palettes. You want to taste as much much as you can. And that's something that I'm, I'm starting to see in the last 10 years is that the consumer is now just as interested as US industry vets are and have been behind the scenes. And, and how that's informing how matcha brands, especially as there are many emerging matcha brands, how they're now tailoring their marketing to

Jules · 39:31

speak directly to the customer. So it's refreshing honestly for me because I know how difficult it was for me to to just access that information myself as I was kind of working in the industry so early on. Yeah, because that information is kind of free now. And it's interesting because we're at a point where I feel like some like super consumers of Matcha might have more knowledge than a lot of Matcha founders and brands. Absolutely.

Ryan · 39:56

It's a. Very weird dynamic actually. Usually don't see that level of knowledge asymmetry in other industries. It's interesting. Yeah, I. Wonder where it's going to go and my hunch is because the barriers to entry to starting any food or beverage brand are very low now there's a note I could rattle off tons of people that would be happy to white label a matcha brand for you. So like boom, you have sourcing and it's going to be relatively good product.

Ryan · 40:24

Could be specialty standards, single origin, single cultivar, you know, when it was milled, how it was milled, blah, blah, blah. And then you know, if you understand social and building a community and network. So in a lot of ways, the barriers have never been lower.

Ryan · 40:37

And I wonder if we're just going to see tons of players and come on and kind of let 1000 flowers bloom. And I feel like we're kind of already seeing that, where someone is confident enough and they know enough and they know what they want and they're not seeing enough of it.

Jules · 40:51

Yeah. And the barriers to entry are so low, and the market is crowded. And it's something that I recognize, Like, each week, it's like there's a new Matcha brand that I see popping up as an ad. And in a ways, I admire the audacity to just have the confidence and say, you know what, I'm gonna start a matcha brand.

Jules · 41:11

At the same time, I do feel like because there are challenges at Origin, yeah. Can the industry sustain it? We're seeing that they're they're the challenges are being posed now. I mean the power of creators. I I admire it, the power of them to be able to galvanized support from their communities to say these are the three tea houses I recommend you try and them being sold out across the board or it being so difficult to access those specific brands.

Jules · 41:41

And well, I agree. Those are incredible brands. And I mean, I'm, I'm not going to name them, but we're, we're, we're all aware. It's something that I feel like, again, could hinder someone's development as they continue to immerse themselves in the matcha world.

Jules · 41:55

Because if you're only tasting and, and we know year over year, whether it be the same offering, it's not the variables change, climate, war, all of these fertilizers that although you might be experiencing a particular product one year, it has the same name that's carried over the following year.

Jules · 42:13

It'll be a different experience. And so I think if we, you know, when I see creators and I'm certain I know creators, you know, within my circle or network that have more knowledge than I do in ways, I think, you know, I, I learn a lot from, from them as well. And I'm grateful for it because I'm glad someone is having the conversation.

Jules · 42:33

And it's interesting when I think that they've developed such an like beautiful connection to their own community that now they're piquing the interest of other people to then go down their own rabbit holes. For me, matcha started it. It started with matcha and then it it transitioned over to Japanese tea as a whole.

Jules · 42:53

And there's so many categories within Japanese tea, but I kind of straight away from matcha. It, it's ironic today I'm not even drinking matcha as we talk about matcha. And I kind of feel like a hypocrite, but I, I, I hope creators, you know, as, as there's a handful of them who their, their education that they share is so on point.

Jules · 43:13

And I'm so happy and I'm, I'm rooting for them that they continue to do that because the more accurate information that's out there as they build their communities, I think it's the better. Because on the other side, conversely, there's a lot of inaccurate information out there from creators who have the platforms, who have hundreds of thousands of followers. And now their language is just, it has this ripple effect where I hear one creator share something in a very specific way and I hear 15 others repeat that. And in my mind, I'm like, Oh no, like this is going in the wrong direction.

Jules · 43:49

And you know, the creators that are doing a really good job and many that you've had already that you've interviewed, they are the difference is their objective. They are allowing the product to speak to them and not and not forcing their own experience onto their community.

Jules · 44:07

And, and I hear that reflected in their communication where they're really empowering their community to develop their own palates. And, and the language sounds like, you know, this is what I'm experiencing, but it might look different for you because taste is subjective.

Jules · 44:22

We all have. When you taste anything, it's such an abstract expression of whatever you're tasting that you can draw on memories, you can draw on aromas, on flavors that no one has the palette I do. So although I might taste toffee, you might get citrusy notes.

Jules · 44:41

Yeah. And so, yeah, I, I went down a rabbit hole, but this is a particular topic is one that I feel very passionate about that I haven't spoken about because at the same time, you know, I, I want people to feel proud of what they're doing. I love the passion for matcha.

Jules · 44:58

I just think that if you're going to be educating people about it, that there's some fundamentals that you need to arm yourself with so that the information you are sharing is accurate and is doing the industry justice.

Ryan · 45:10

Yeah, couldn't agree more. Totally agree and also like a more and more knowledgeable and educated consumer base is like a perfect forcing function to kind of, you know, cycle back to the industry and help everybody grow, grow together.

Ryan · 45:26

Exactly. And we've seen that on special, like in the specialty coffee room. So not just starting to catch up. People will the system will hopefully self correct too as more and more people you know are talking in conversations like this and in the comments section.

Jules · 45:40

Hopefully it's not too toxic, but hopefully there's some election as interesting as. That it is toxic. There's data there. Then I think for me, I love feedback. Although it can be hard to receive it sometimes. Feedback has helped me understand how I can improve, not only for my clients, but for as a matcha consumer, as I mean really it translates to all aspects of my life, like being able to receive feedback, how I'm being received or how I could better position things and not doing, not making the same mistake twice, you know, So I think I do, I do feel like, and I hope that there's a self correction that happens down the road because these are much

Ryan · 46:22

needed conversations that I'm sure many industry friends are, are very relieved are happening. One of the things that you were touching on was around the matcha shortage. So actually, I thought it was a perfect time to bring in a community question that you helped source.

Ryan · 46:37

And this one is from Shea Retrograde, and they're asking, what do you think about the TikTok girlies causing the matcha shortage in Japan? I love this question, especially with a lot of the online criticism that's floating around about the matcha shortage. I'd love to get your take and then your take on her question as well.

Jules · 46:57

Yeah, hi Shay. I love this question and you know, I think personally, I've been hesitant to touch on it and and my Instagram page is private. So really that in that, that perspective would really live within that small community that I have.

Jules · 47:13

But it's something that I, I again, the power of creators to galvanized support is fascinating. And I do hope creators recognize the power that they have and use it in ways where they can further education and, you know, the experiences of Matcha in ways that elevate the industry and not necessarily their own brands or communities.

Jules · 47:40

Because even within creators who have creator founded brands, there's, it's so hard to be objective when you have your own brand that you've started and you're rating other brands. And unless you can really hone in on your experience and check yourself and say, you know what like this is, I mean, I can imagine because at the end of the day, when I receive that content, it's hard for me to trust it as a consumer because I think that they're really trying to promote their own brand, you know, as naturally anyone would if you've started a brand or a company. But I feel like there's an opportunity again, to imbue a little bit more or a lot more

Jules · 48:19

objectivity. Like lean in. There's, there's creators who are doing incredible jobs and they might not necessarily have the biggest community, but the information is sound. And in terms of the matcha shortage, I don't quite know because I, I have taken a step back in terms of really immersing myself in the situations. You know, how these creators feel about starting a matcha shortage.

Jules · 48:44

Is it something that they're proud of that they had such a resounding effect on the industry that now tea farmers are overwhelmed? I could see from 1 lens how that could be exciting. Like wow, like I had so much impact to cause a matcha shortage.

Jules · 48:57

But at the same time, as someone who is working behind the scenes and knows the struggles, have spoken directly with tea farmers and understands the challenges the industry has continued to face year over year, how overwhelmed they are.

Jules · 49:10

And the part of me empathizes with that experience of like, that's the last thing they want. Because if you really educate yourself, you know, if I'm going to use a platform to educate people about matcha and, and promote it in ways that these creators have. There's another layer to that education is recognizing where the industry is AT.

Jules · 49:29

And because the industry has continued to be in decline because harvest in terms of the matcha that they are promoting ceremonial grade. And, and if you're listening to the podcast audio, I'm, I'm using quotations, you know, categorizing it as ceremonial grade that comes from one specific, you know, three month period in the year.

Jules · 49:51

And there's, this isn't a similar product where, you know, they can, a tea farmer can now produce more matcha outside of that harvest. That's it. The allocation for the years that they have allocated for the year for their partners across, you know, overseas or domestically. And so now that we're in a matcha shortage, there are so many brands, matcha brands here in the US and overseas who are saying we don't have matcha until the next harvest. And so I hope that there's a reckoning that happens of recognizing the impact your words do have and the opportunity to educate people in ways and then educate yourself in a way that would benefit the

Jules · 50:31

industry. Because although it could be exciting to cause something, you know, first, the viral aspect of social media is something that I think many creators attain to achieve. It does does have adverse effects, or it could. I feel like there's so many layers between the matcha farmers and the end consumer that somehow the popularity of this matcha didn't really cascade down to the farmers level.

Jules · 51:00

Like, is there a way to I, I, I'm just, you know, dropping a threat here? I don't necessarily have an answer to this question, but is there a way in the future that, you know, this whole popularity can finally cascade down to the farmers working in the fuel and help them grow together?

Jules · 51:16

I think that that will be the ultimate answer of this shortage because, you know, people outside of Japan are loving matcha and this demand is going to continuously grow in the future. Yeah, that's a great question. Something I do know about the industry at origin is that there's a level of community that you don't quite see here in the US and there are many collectives across tea growing prefectures in Japan that come together, you know, with, with their yield of tea leaves and, and being able to meet demand.

Jules · 51:49

And so that's not something you, you see here in the US for, for matcha brand competitors rally together in support of something. It's often very segmented. Whereas in the industry, it's something that I, I, I'm a pioneer member of the Global Japanese Tea Association.

Jules · 52:06

And I don't know if you've immersed yourself in their work. And they're incredible and they have opportunities for any person interested in learning more about Japanese tea as a whole. And that includes matcha to connect directly with tea farmers.

Jules · 52:24

And so I've had the opportunity and the privilege to have a Direct Line virtually. This is during the pandemic or following the pandemic, where they were able to share the challenges and the struggles and literally see tears welling up in their eyes about how challenging it is working behind the scenes and how they've had to lean in on the support of other competitor tea farmers to be able to to keep their tea gardens and tea farms afloat. And so I can't imagine what's happening now. Like that was a conversation that was happening a couple of years ago, but now having to really put their heads together around, you know, how do we

Jules · 53:03

sustain our business here with the, the, the, you know, very little support that they're seeing. And it's something that I hope Matcha brands today, this is something that we, we're exploring at shade Leaf prior to the acquisition is how can we support the tea farmers directly? Are there programs in place or organizations in place? And I know that the Global Japanese Tea Association is, is a non profit, but there was even some hesitance around receiving monetary contributions to further their mission. And so that's something that I, I hope to see because they need more support.

Jules · 53:36

And and that's not to say monetary support is the only way to support, but the information that I think creators or anyone interested in Matcha shares should come from a place of, you know, what would be best for the industry as a whole, especially as we're facing challenges today.

Ryan · 53:56

Yeah, totally agree. And you know, it's a really complex issue too, because there is no such thing as matcha farmers. It's a wide variety of business models ranging from mom and pop who have no international experience that process all their material in a collective versus like these Rockstar farmers that are very successful and very well monetized and can afford the investments.

Ryan · 54:21

And then you have, of course, have the mega companies that have the ability to get, you know, a kosher certification or USDA organic or JAS organic or halal certification, like all of these things and the ability to easily export for what you know is needed. So it's like you have this interesting spectrum within Japan and who do you help and how do you help? It's like it's really complex the more we we dive into that world.

Jules · 54:45

Yeah. A lot of politics. You know, like is, is it help that would be beneficial for them, you know, is another question. So yeah, it's it's such an interesting period we're in, but this is a great question. Thanks, Shay.

Jules · 55:02

This is a question I do get from time to time is from Danny B. What tips do you have for someone that is interested in working in the matcha industry but doesn't have the background or an entry point? That stood out to me because that very much was me at one point.

Jules · 55:18

And you know, coming from a background of 0 formal experience, I had my match, my passion for matcha that I leaned on, that I shared through my community pages and all the ways that we just discussed. But I, if someone's interested in entering the industry, it's, it's a crowded market, at least here in the US. If you don't have the background or an entry point, I would recommend being obsessed with skill acquisition. Focus on making yourself valuable to a founder, to a company in immersing yourself in all the ways that you could add value.

Jules · 55:55

And I think today, especially with other conversations happening in the professional realm of, you know, like not just working within your scope and, and doing things within your scope, which if you're part of a startup, you know, you often absorb other responsibilities that fall outside of your scope. And I know founders greatly appreciate that. And that's not to say that founders expect you to care as much or work as much as they do.

Jules · 56:21

That's, that's not the founding team's responsibility at all, but it's important to be able to, I think add as much value upfront, especially as you're, you're just beginning to develop skill sets because you don't have much to offer at that point aside from your passion and interest.

Jules · 56:38

But if I think oftentimes people go in the route of mentorship, like, Hey, can you mentor me in these ways and I can do XY and Z for you and, and I need this from you. I want this time from you and I'll offer XY and Z. That's pretty costly because time is is our most valuable asset. So that's a big ask versus upfront saying just arming yourself in the background before it, you know, as you're educating yourself and developing your, you know, you're in a phase of skill acquisition, immerse yourself in the world, absorb content like you share here in the podcast, read books, you know, connect with people. So begin networking because that

Jules · 57:20

takes time. I think the relationship building takes a lot of time, especially as in ways I still view it as a small industry. Maybe I'm thinking of like the, you know, the early players and you know, the connections that we have. But it's something that I think when you immerse yourself and you're just so engrossed in the process of learning as much as you can, you've already made yourself a part of the 1% that is willing to go the distance and stand out to a founder. And I think many people expect, especially if you're starting, expect so much upfront, like I want all of these. It feels transactional in a way.

Jules · 57:56

And it's so easy when you're a part of a founding team or I can imagine a founder to tune that out because you, you're in so many conversations with people who want something from you. I would focus on what, what can you give?

Jules · 58:06

And, and that's where I was, I was very much focused on what can I give to Mark and Will? And you know, an example is although I was a brand manager leading marketing, I was very much involved in other arms of the business and I worked, we partnered very closely on the product development side to bring 20 plus products to market.

Jules · 58:27

And in conversations around the design of it, working with our designer and just talking about the experience we really wanted people to have and collaborating and working closely with our CEO Will on spearheading culture at a time where technically I didn't have to do that and we were such a small team.

Jules · 58:45

But your internal marketing and especially from a founder lens or a leadership lens matters. How you market to your team matters just as much as how you market externally to your consumer. And if you can find things that you genuinely care about that you can drive forward, it doesn't necessarily have to be within the sphere of what you may want to do could be supply, operations, product, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. If you can really hone in on what that is and how you can contribute that, I think it makes it much of an enjoyable experience for you to work beyond your scope in ways that will help further your goals and

Ryan · 59:25

your career while still adding value to your team. I hope that's helpful. It's. A. Great answer. Great answer. One thing that I'll add to is not being in the industry as a tea person is probably a great gift within the matcha industry, especially if you're Japanese.

Ryan · 59:43

There's this perception of you cannot break into the field. It's so honored within Japanese society and it holds such a, it's an area of such cultural importance that it's, as Ian from Yunomi put it, it's seen as something you can't break into. So actually being an outsider is a huge advantage in this industry.

Zongjun · 1:00:04

You don't carry that burden. That's easier from the outside going in than the inside creating something, I think. Yeah, but also at the same time, you know, coming in with a humble and respect, respectful mentality, I think it's very important too. Very.

Jules · 1:00:20

And I love that you brought that up because I very much felt like an outsider when I started. And I look the way that I look. I'm heavily tattooed. I'm not Japanese and I felt like these, you know, especially traveling to Origin and being in those meetings where it is very male dominated, sitting in a boardroom and looking around and feeling so different.

Jules · 1:00:43

I also want to press upon for anyone listening that feels like they may not be qualified for, for whatever entering the industry because of the things that you may feel like disqualify you. Oftentimes that can be your greatest asset. Ryan, you mentioned not not being necessarily in the industry and being so different can be a gift. And I think it's something that I recognize embracing who you are and staying true to who you are and not changing who you are to fit into the mold of what you think you should be, especially in, in such a traditional industry. And I'm speaking only in from the Japanese perspective here in the US, it's different.

Jules · 1:01:24

I, I do see it a lot more like, you know, the specialty coffee realm is so diverse. When I go to these specialty coffee events, I feel very much seen. There are many people who look like me, many people of color, queer, heavily tattooed. And I feel like in ways that has helped me connect so deeply, especially as I work on the B to B side of things of being able to just connect directly with people so, you know, don't change who you are.

Jules · 1:01:52

It took me many years to get to this point where I used to hide a lot of myself, wear certain things that would cover my tattoos, and omit things because I felt like it didn't have the room contextually in conversations.

Jules · 1:02:07

But it's something that I think can really help separate you from people. Actually, I would even say being different and staying true to yourself is an obligation if you're entering the industry. I mean, the Japanese tea industry and the matcha industry is an industry almost exclusively controlled by old Japanese men and the specialty matcha scene. It deserves more.

Jules · 1:02:28

That's the reason why there's remarkably little change and remarkably little, I hesitate to use the word care, but I can't think of a better word for a more diverse consumer set. It's, you know, no one's thinking about the consumer in, you know, pick any random location and doing things for them. Yeah.

Jules · 1:02:47

Within Japanese society. So I mean that I would say that that change and keeping true to yourself is more obligatory than than anything. Yeah. I. Agree. Gosh, I feel like I could go down another rabbit hole here because I do. I do agree with that.

Jules · 1:03:04

Where especially on the marketing side, when your team or even because we have such diverse experiences, you know, like I have experiences that I carry with me that have shaped me into who I am today. And when you see someone, especially as many brands are now working on humanizing, there's, you know, the, the era of a personal brand, when your community or consumer sees themselves reflected in you, that deepens the connection because they've, they've, especially, you know, I, I feel this when I'm in person, that events, you know, supporting my clients or, or especially at my time at Jade Leaf, being able to connect directly with people who

Jules · 1:03:42

may share similar experiences as me and feel comfortable being as open. And, and I mean, the stories that I have received from my community, I'm often shocked at the level of vulnerability they share with me such personal things. I feel so comfortable because I have given that as well. And so when I think that there's that exchange where you can really own who you are, all the parts that, you know, the things that you might tell yourself about yourself that you feel like, you know, make you so different and, and maybe in a negative way, really could be the thing that draw a deeper connection to people.

Zongjun · 1:04:18

So stay true to who you are, celebrate who you are and and you'll find that people will feel a lot more drawn to you and in just such an authentic and genuine way. Yeah. Totally agree. And you know, from our personal experience, even like in Japan, like if you show genuine curiosity, you're passionate and you're decently well prepared. You know, like the Japanese, they are like they are also very open minded in a lot of aspect and they are not as you know, exclusive as a lot of people being, you know, talking about as their stereotype.

Jules · 1:04:55

So I would say that that's a really important thing, no matter where you are and who you're talking to. I, I remember when I went to origin and we have, we had a teammate in Japan that I consulted and I just asked, I said, should I cover up my tattoos?

Jules · 1:05:10

Like should I get a bunch of foundation and just cover up my tattoos and do that every day? Because I was honestly afraid of how I would be received, especially with such a strong stigma of tattoo in Japan. And he said, just be yourself and he goes, you don't have to do that.

Jules · 1:05:28

Don't worry about it. And and a part of me kind of felt like, do you under I mean, can you really understand or empathize with maybe the fear I have about like why I am so hesitant to. I mean, I at this point, many visible tattoos, I can't hide unless I go the distance of covering them with foundation. And I was so shocked by how I was received. And not only in Japan, but also at, you know, meeting our tea farmers and partner tea producers where they recognize I had a chasen on my my finger and they recognized the leaves and they're like, what is that a chasen? And it's like, oh, yeah, it's a

Jules · 1:06:03

bamboo whisk. And they were so intrigued and wanted to learn more. And, and it's something where I wish I didn't recognize that that was going to happen. But it created a moment where I really bonded with a lot of our tea farmers then and was able to collect some really once in a lifetime experiences because I was so different.

Zongjun · 1:06:20

Yeah. So yeah, it's so interesting when when you can just really embrace who we are. And I think maybe that's the work many of us are trying to do. Yeah, tea farmers in Japan are some of the loveliest people in the world.

Jules · 1:06:31

Very generous. Yeah. They want to lavish you, they want you to have a really good experience. And, and it's something that I think is some of my fondest memories are meeting tea farmers, doing karaoke with them. And, you know. Carrying me.

Ryan · 1:06:49

That's wonderful. That's awesome. All right. One more question from our community by Joey S Hi, Joey. So this question goes, Jules, how do you see matcha becoming even more accessible and less scary for people that may be a bit more hesitant to dive into this world? And as part of that, do you think it is because there are so many layers to how to do it right that might deter people from having fun with it?

Jules · 1:07:16

This question and hi, Joey. I actually met Joey in New York when I hosted a very intimate in person matcha meet up. So it was, yeah. Hi Joey, Hope you're well. I think it's something that we're starting to see that shift of people who were matcha curious now really wanting to invest in more in acquiring more knowledge about matcha.

Jules · 1:07:39

I do agree. And I, I believe you both had a podcast episode where you talked about chanoyu and how, and you know, the, the rituals of it, although beautiful, have created some challenges for people overseas in terms of how they can prepare matcha on their own or feel intimidated about matcha preparation that they're not necessarily doing things right.

Jules · 1:08:01

And you see that translated over on the, you know, the cafe side of things where they're using certain tools and people give feedback that it has to be done this way or you're not honoring the ritual of the practice or, or respecting it.

Jules · 1:08:15

And I find that when we can lean in on our curiosity, I think as as many people, especially at the Jade Leaf time, came to Jade Leaf from places like Starbucks where they had their first experience with matcha and wanted to really immerse themselves and learn and feel empowered to do it, to prepare matcha on their own. I think it's helpful to just be gentle with yourself and learn the fundamentals of matcha preparation. I think it's helpful to learn traditional preparation and there's now so many other methods you can lean in on to prepare matcha, especially if we all have different lifestyles. But it's something that I think

Jules · 1:08:54

when you arm yourself with the knowledge and the fundamentals, if, if you care to that degree to learn about tea brewing and understanding the variables of water temperature time, the the grams of matcha you use and how that can impact, you know, the overall experience that you have, I think it's helpful to then deviate from that. I certainly do that all the time where, you know, when I make matcha, if I'm doing it traditionally with a chasen and a chawan, sometimes I'll bring up my scale and I'll, I'll, you know, dial in the temperature to a very specific degree and I'll, I'll prepare it as I would

Jules · 1:09:30

traditionally. And sometimes I, I just want to riff it and experiment with like, hmm, let's do this, you know, like let's, let's go 10° lower and let's use more matcha and it's more intuitive. And I think if you can just lean in on the curiosity and whatever feels right to you is right to you. And I, I think people having such strong opinions about how to do something right does intimidate people and hinder someone's openness, I think in terms of embracing matcha in ways that they want to.

Jules · 1:10:00

So I think if we can remove those barriers for ourselves and just have fun with it, unless you're preparing matcha traditionally in a traditional tea ceremony, then absolutely, yes, there's a ritual and a practice to honor and respect.

Jules · 1:10:15

But if you're making matcha at home or if you're serving matcha at a Cafe and you have a method that works for you to serve or sell matcha at scale, that's awesome. That kind of that kind of connects back to a one of the questions, Lex's question, how would you teach big coffee shops how to prepare matcha with the correct techniques?

Jules · 1:10:34

So temperature sifting made to order. And that's from Lex 8888. Hi, Lex. Lex has also been incredibly supportive. Just my journey in matcha. And I think it's something that I do receive a lot of questions from, you know, cafe friends, people in specialty coffee who don't quite know or intimidated that the methods they're they're using aren't correct or if there's a better method to use out there.

Jules · 1:11:01

And it's challenging when you're serving matcha at scale in a high velocity environment. You also need, there's another layer like, yes, there's, there's a, a way to prepare matcha, but now having to do that for 10 plus people at peak time can be challenging with a bamboo whisk and a chawan.

Jules · 1:11:22

And, and I don't think that those tools necessarily are the best fit for that environment for many reasons from a sanitation standpoint. I've personally, as I, I went to a cafe recently and they were, I always like to Ryan, I know I, I tagged you in something and I called it sad matcha.

Jules · 1:11:42

It's something I've noticed because I like to just personally before you, you mentioned that I was like, Oh my gosh, someone else cares and notices what matcha stations look like. And I always felt like I was just being overly critical of that personally.

Jules · 1:11:56

And I drank a hot latte in a cup and I choked on a tine of the bamboo whisk. It broke off into my latte. And so there's, you know, there's physical hazards, I think in terms of some of the tools that you use for high velocity environment. So I think that's something cafes of someone's looking to expand their matcha program to really assess what is going to be the best fit for their environment and deliver the best experience for their their customer. And so serving matchas at scale is challenging. There are things like sifting the temperature of the water you use, which I've seen cafes and more specialty cafes really dial in their temperature for matcha,

Jules · 1:12:40

which I personally appreciate. But most often what you experience if you are ordering matcha, even at some incredible cafes, they're using hot water that is reserved for hot tea that is extremely hot that will immediately burn the matcha.

Jules · 1:12:56

And so if there's something that I would teach big coffee shops, if they were to focus on two things, it'd be water temperature and all the other things that you might integrate like sifting, do that prior to service. You know, like sifting for each drink you make slows down service. It can be messy.

Jules · 1:13:14

But if you have someone prior to opening, sifting a big batch of your matcha powder and just having it prepared, keeping it airtight, I think it's important to protect the integrity of the matcha clear containers that I see many cafes used to store matcha. It's not great, but at the same time, I empathize because there aren't many tools out there that really arm and empower cafes to, to protect the integrity of the product. They have to figure it out on their own or source their own. So I think that's something that I have a lot of empathy for. And when I see it, I, I understand the struggles of small businesses.

Jules · 1:13:55

So I'm, I'm, I, the one thing the real one request I do make if I am a customer going into a cafe is I'll just ask them to put a couple of ice cubes in the water prior to, to whisking matcha or frothing it. Because I, I don't want the matcha to get burnt. And then the, the ice will melt relatively quick, quickly in that hot water.

Zongjun · 1:14:18

But it'll it's a world of a difference compared to just burning your palate and tasting burnt matcha. Absolutely. One thing that too that we always like to say is like looking to chanoyu, you might be looking to the wrong place. Like tea ceremony has like very specific objectives and underlying reasons for every single step. And those objectives are probably something completely different than what you want.

Zongjun · 1:14:43

They could be symbolic objectives, they could be aesthetic objectives. Like there's all these rules and underlying intentions and learning Japanese tea ceremony is a very particular type of education, very Japanese. No one is going to necessarily explicitly explain to you why something is. And in some cases you could even ask and they might not tell you. And copying and pasting that set of equipment or that set of procedures over, while it may be a traditional method and feel right, it might be designed for a very different outcome than the outcome that you're specifically looking for, whether or not it's both at home

Zongjun · 1:15:24

or in a cafe. So like really like being curious and asking like, why am I doing this step? What is actually going on when I'm creating a suspension or creating foam or whisking in a particular way or using a certain water chemistry or or temperature water?

Ryan · 1:15:39

Like what's the underlying assumption and what is it that I want much more specialty coffee approach? Like it's then just blindly adhering to tradition or what a traditional Japanese tea ceremony would do. Yeah, but I feel like that for modern cafes, one thing that we do can learn from chanoyu is the intentionality of all the gestures, like showing care, like it's not the physical form that we should learn and copy, but you know, like why we are doing that, why the spirit like trying to communicate your caring of the item of the guest. I think that's something that we can definitely learn from traditional chanoyu.

Ryan · 1:16:21

Absolutely. And it's really hard to do that in a high velocity environment, yes. I'm sure come through orders very talented. Yeah, no, absolutely awesome. Well, I think that's a great place to wrap up. I think this is our longest interview ever. Hello.

Ryan · 1:16:36

Hit a special record. I hope that's OK. Of course, of course. No, it's just awesome, a packed full of great content. Thank you so much for your time and agreeing to come on and all the wonderful work you're doing in the matcha world. Yeah, wonderful package.

Jules · 1:16:52

Thanks. Thanks for having me. And I do, I wanna circle back to the sentiment is I'm so happy that your work exists. It's much needed in the industry. I found out about it and I've just been consuming it and I've learned so much about it myself.

Jules · 1:17:08

And you talked about, you know, like industry events and how creators, we were just talking about how maybe they've superseded our knowledge. And I've learned so much, I think taking what I know. And I've even continued to deepen my care and appreciation for Matcha through your lens.

Jules · 1:17:24

And so I think that's such an important thing to be a student of matcha, especially if this is something that you want to get into. We, I'm sure the end like the industry has been wanting this. Not that I speak for the industry, but I know many industry friends would just find so much value in, in just the perspectives you share, the people you're bringing on to really create a space for us to have dialogue because again, that hasn't existed unless it happens offline behind the scenes.

Jules · 1:17:55

And I'm just so grateful that you're taking the time to have these conversations because it's something that I think will further the industry, especially as you know, we're starting to see that shift towards specialty.

Ryan · 1:18:07

So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Really, really appreciate the kind words. Thank you. Yeah, we're, we're happy to be a part of this community and we're excited too. I think it's just energizing for everyone of me. Can't wait to see how it grows.

Ryan · 1:18:21

Me too. Awesome. Thanks so much. If you're listening to this podcast, if you liked it, please share it with a friend and we'll see you on the next one. Yeah. Thanks. Thank you. Thank you.