Interview with Founder of Fudo-An, Aislynn van Clief,

Ryan · 0:00

Hello and welcome to the Specialty Matcha Podcast. My name is Ryan, This is Sam. Hello. Hello. And we're the cofounders of Sanko Matcha Products. Yeah. So we launched this podcast to discuss our learning journey, much of share startup stories and interview experts. And today we're happy to have an old friend joining us, Icelyn Van Cleef.

Ryan · 0:20

Welcome, Icelyn. Hi, thanks for having me. Eisen is an old friend, very special guest and former colleague, I guess Former roommate even in New York City. So many titles. Yeah, so many titles. Many names. And yeah, so Eisen was a early, early member of the Tea Institute at Penn State or Urasenke student for over a decade, I believe.

Ryan · 0:48

Now, I think out of anyone at the Penn State Tea Institute, you've been the longest running student ever, I think. Don't beat that record? And then we were colleagues for a couple years, including in New York, where we were working at the same startup in food tech and AI. And then Eisen went on to found her own matcha brand, Foodowan, based in Denver, Co, around matcha and Wellness and creating different events and macho awareness, especially around tea ceremony.

Ryan · 1:26

And you now work as a product designer. So thanks so much for coming on. Yeah, thank you. I'm so excited to chat more about Matcha. So can you talk a little bit about your tea background at the Tea Institute and your Urasenke practice?

Aislynn · 1:42

Yeah. So I was part of the group that kind of was there in the beginning of the Tea Institute at Penn State, which was an interdisciplinary Research Institute dedicated to the study and preservation of Chinese, Japanese and Korean tea ceremony.

Ryan · 1:59

And there you may remember we studied tea and numerous other things not sport related at first. So yeah, I it all started with the Chinese ceremony, gongfu cha, but I actually leaned more into chanoyu, or the Japanese tea ceremony. And that was 13 years ago with my current teacher, Drew Hansen Sensei, who I still study with to this day. So long what is how has how has that journey been? That's I can't even because I was a student for two, maybe three years.

Aislynn · 2:37

How is that was the feeling of the, I guess acquiring that new knowledge and all the licenses etcetera. How has that been? How's it felt? It's definitely one of the longest things I've ever studied and had ongoing in my life for as long as it has.

Ryan · 2:57

And I feel like it has followed me through my life, which is really cool. It's it's cool to, I think carry something with you for that long and always feel like you're learning something new and still humbled at the same time because I still have a long way to go. So it's it's definitely a life practice. Yeah, actually when you put it that way, it's, it's interesting because like most people don't study something that long and basically like you're committing to basically be a student for what, at least 20 years before you can teach usually or something.

Zongjun · 3:31

Kids. Some kids is 30. At least. Yeah, yeah, totally. It was very common for a lot of traditional Japanese art forms. I was practicing Kendo Japanese fencing during college and I remember for about two months I'm just learning how to, you know, sling the the sword from my head to my waist level and just doing that one pass. Over and over, yes.

Aislynn · 4:05

Yeah, that's so true. You know, Kendo, the when you say kendo, you reminded me that like it's like chado and a lot of the Japanese arts to your point is studying the way. So, you know, breaking down chado, it's literally 2 parts. Cha, tea, dou, the way, and multiple chados we study, right?

Aislynn · 4:27

But studying a dou is more than just reading something out of a book, right? It's like a tangible way to learn about life. So we carry these things with us and we, it's a way to deepen our meditation, our control over our mind. You know, the way we look at the world even. And I think that's why we're taught to always have a beginner's mind.

Ryan · 4:48

You can study this your whole life, and you might never become a tea master, you might never teach. And it's really just more of a way to live peacefully and humbly, I think. And everybody moves at their own pace, you know, There's no competition except with yourself, which I really like. Wow, that's a great line.

Ryan · 5:04

Yeah, it's. Really not about the the end, it's about the journey. Yeah, yeah, I love that. What do you think separates people who stay on that path versus people who grow like more disinterested in tea ceremony, which I'll classify myself as. I love it as an art, but as a practitioner, it's I, I realized quickly that my interest was much more in the product of matcha itself.

Ryan · 5:32

But how do you view these two like paths of someone who who you know, commits to that path and like stays on the way and is passionate and is on that journey versus someone who falls off? And I'm sure you've seen this quite a lot over your own Urasenke practice.

Aislynn · 5:51

Yeah, that's a really great question. You know, I think it's just like I stopped, not stopped having an interest in, but certainly didn't lean into gongfu cha as much as I could have, right? Like I think that there's different aspects that call to you and appeal to you in different ways. And I think that it has something to offer everybody too, in a way.

Aislynn · 6:13

Like there's definitely those who can just appreciate it. And at the end of the day, simply just be mindful and calm after experiencing one too. I think is like the way that we can all participate and appreciate tea, even if it's just tasting it, right? Like you love the the matcha and the production of the product itself and what one piece of what we're enjoying in the ceremony too, right?

Aislynn · 6:39

And I think it's really cool to appreciate from all perspectives, but also get that deep exposure no matter what, you know, like you, you definitely were submerged in it, I think, and that's what taught you that you didn't want to go that far, but you saw how deep it could go right?

Aislynn · 6:56

And understand like, oh, a lot to this beverage, like not just drinking it as a shot and and taking it to go. There's actually a whole history behind it. So I think it's really important for people to have exposure to that and then kind of take what they want from there, you know?

Ryan · 7:14

Yeah, that makes sense. I guess it leaves behind something for everyone, whether or not, you know, you, you know, stay. It's a regular practice in your life. Yeah, although a lot of elements I like to keep, there's a lot that I think you can learn from tea ceremony, even if you consider like appreciate matcha as a specialty product or, or even in other things, like I always find myself like preheating my coffee cup in the morning. Exactly.

Aislynn · 7:43

Like exactly taking ceremonial elements, yeah. Just gonna add to what you said that I think that the ritual and the ceremony is a big part of what people can take from it. And even if they drop it, they, you know, have this new awareness of just how like an A mundane task can be turned into something extraordinary. And I think that that is one of the biggest takeaways in in Japanese tea ceremony.

Ryan · 8:06

Yeah, that's such a great framing. It's like, I don't know if you compare it to like, I don't know, a Michelin star restaurant or something. It's just cooking. It's just putting a plate on a table. It's just pouring something from a bottle into a cup. And the distinction is, like, the intention behind it. Yeah.

Aislynn · 8:29

And like tea, ceremony really is the highest form of that intentionality. Yes, yeah, yes, 100%. That's a great way to put. It and there's so many subtle views because like in in tea that you learn this as a student. But just to give some color for any of our listeners that have never attended tea ceremony and and I said, I'm sure you can really add to this list and you'd be really curious. But the things that I remembered were like a host never turns their back to a guest and the only time they do is when they carry away the wastewater bowl.

Aislynn · 9:04

And like, there's this etiquette around thanking people or excusing yourself for going ahead of somebody. There's a ritual ceremony with the fukusa, or the silk cloth, where you purify and clean all of the elements in front of your guests. I think the intentionality that develops or centering around all of these practice really transcends beyond tea ceremony. Yeah.

Ryan · 9:32

For anything that happens in your life, you know, you can take, you know, these intentionality or this thinking as a grain of salt and then kind of apply that to everything. It gives it meaning. Exactly. So for I get those listeners who have never attended a tea ceremony before, maybe describe the process of like a most simple to my or a set of tea ceremony procedure to some of the more complex. Yeah, I can definitely speak to that. If you're ever invited to a tea ceremony, be prepared for an event.

Aislynn · 10:07

So if you are invited, a tea ceremony is considered the ultimate form of hospitality in Japan. So you can imagine even the most simple of procedures. You have a treat for all five of your senses. You have incense. You have a nice, clean, tranquil tea room. You have traditional Japanese sweet. You have the serving of thin or thick tea. Sometimes both and then in a more formal setting, perhaps celebrating a birthday or New Year's or something like this. You also have a full kaiseki meal. You'll get sake, you get even tobacco traditionally. It's really just to give your guests the best experience you can.

10:51

Like it just covers all the bases. So I think that if you've, if you ever get the opportunity, certainly take it and know that it's really about the host humbling and giving all that they have for you to have a great experience. And, and that like Ryan was saying with the host and the guest kind of like having their roles to play. It's really about the exchange of that intention and that equality of showing you appreciate each other in in so many ways throughout the ceremony. There's opportunities for that, but it's really a beautiful exchange, I think.

11:26

Absolutely. As a guest, what is important to know? I find that like walking into something like that is intimidating. I have been intimidated going into a tea ceremony knowing that there's rules and formality. What What are some things that are important to know if you get invited or have the opportunity to go to Japanese tea ceremony? I think say what you know what you don't know, like it's okay. I think today people are very open and accepting of that. If they invite you, they want you there. They don't care if you're a tea person, so to speak. So I think that there are things you can do to be polite in a tea room.

12:08

So some of the things I teach in my workshops are like always bow, never put your feet in front of you in the space where teas being served, you know, basic like Japanese room etiquette, like wear socks on the tatami always.

12:23

You know, if you're bowing, I teach the three bows. There's there's levels of formality between the host and the guest versus a guest in a guest, for example. So knowing kind of how to bow in a tea room. So that's just kind of some basic Japanese etiquette goes a long way in in a tea ceremony setting.

12:42

Makes sense? So relax. Enjoy. Relax. And enjoy, yes, that is the goal. Don't be late. That's another. Problem yeah. What are some of the core philosophies or stories that you learn about as a tea ceremony student? That was the most memorable part of my education where all the stories that Like Keiko sensei or Koike sensei or Horii sensei they always give these stories. And I feel like you you hear, I was in a mushakoji senke, which is a different school, but I I remember like, you know, walking by Doctor Drew Hanson teaching and hearing similar stories or he was giving a lecture and similar stories. So what are some of these like

13:27

legends that conveyed like philosophical principles that like all new tea ceremony students will definitely hear when they attend to ceremony or or learn the the way of tea ceremony? Yeah, there are so many anecdotes to basically reset your your scale.

13:48

I feel like of what you think, you know. So a lot of it is humility at the end of the day and teaching why we practice what we practice and that you, you know, no one is better than anyone else. And the goal is to simply give your guests the best experience and, and work on yourself at the same time. And hopefully we, we all leave better than we entered, right. So I think that it's important to understand one of the first things we learn are the core philosophies, the. So there's four pillars of tea ceremony that we study and are reminded of constantly through these anecdotes, and they tie back to harmony, respect,

14:30

purity, and tranquility. And so there are ways we practice these, like creating harmony in the tea room by balancing the temperature, the where's we choose, paying attention to the seasons. We treat everyone with respect in the tea room. It's one of the only places without status, without caring who you are, where you've been.

14:52

We center ourselves and prepare the tea with a pure heart, giving all we have to the present moment. That's the purity aspect. And a lot of other things go into that too. Like, you know, we have the roji garden that walk the guest through the garden before they enter the tea room. And that's a great way to separate your mind and create purity in your heart before you come. So we all are on the same page and and dusting off kind of the, the metaphorical dust of the mind, right, to prepare yourself to enter in a pure state.

15:27

And then finally, tranquility. We leave our guests with a feeling of tranquility and a peaceful experience living in the moment. That's really all we're trying to do. And if you do it right, you're leaving as the host with the same, if not a greater feeling of doing the best you could in that moment.

15:45

And it might sound simple, but we're studying something in the tea room and carrying those practices into our everyday lives with how we treat ourselves and how we treat others. Beautiful. Yeah, makes me almost meditative as you describe all of these.

16:05

That's the goal. Yeah, it's already working, even in a tea room. I hope Use not abuse. Another common phrase in tea ceremony is that it really creates a moment in time. Or Ichigo Ichie. Oh, let's see what she did there.

16:21

Talk a lot about. Someone had to do it. Yeah. Are there stories behind that phrase? I feel like I half remember like people putting more like illustration or or story behind Ichigo Ichie but I don't have any off the top of my head to really describe that for people. You know, that one is so old and I feel like there's so much lore behind it.

16:50

I'm gonna probably wrongly assume that it may have been in a poem by Rikyu, perhaps even the last one he wrote before he committed seppuku. And I know that it has a very strong tie to his philosophy. And I can go into the history, if you'd like right now, but kind of what he thought about tea ceremony. But yeah, be very interesting.

17:14

I think I think that saying really ties into the the reason tea ceremony was created and and his philosophy in general. And you know, when he he has a very long history, which we will not get into right now. But it did come into Japan.

17:33

It wasn't until like the 8th century from monks from China. But Rikyu, our grandfather of tea, as we call him, was the tea master for Hideyoshi at the time around the 16th century. So while it was popular among the upper class, he really sought to make it more of a humble experience.

17:54

And he thought it was a lot simpler and accessible to everyone and really popular. Popularize the idea that you can have a, you know, a amazing experience with utensils made out of bamboo, humble tea Hut made out of like wood and thatched roofing. And it didn't really need to be all of these expensive and elaborate Chinese wares that were very fashionable at the time.

18:26

And of course, you know, if, you know Hideyoshi's history, he was very much like a character in recent politics even that we know that might be a fan of, like, gold. Everything he loved opulence, he loved, you know, golden toilets.

18:44

If that was a thing back then, that would have been his jam. So Hideyoshi was very much the opposite in in his mindset. And if you want to talk about stories of why we got where we are, he there's a very famous story of just kind of how Rikyu trolled Hideyoshi a lot and like he would just do stuff like this to like, if you like throw them off.

19:05

But morning glories, the flower, right? They were super rare in Japan at the time and Rikyu had them growing around his tea house. So Hideyoshi said I want to come see your morning glories and prepare tea ceremony for me.

19:20

And so he was invited and before he came, Rikyu picked all of the morning glories out of his garden and did away with them so that there was nothing for him to see when he got there. Except when he walked in the tea room in the tokonoma, where we traditionally display the scroll or flowers to highlight the season or what's going on in a single vase, a very elegant little vase. There was a single morning glory place there, and that was all he saw.

19:52

And the what Rikyu basically told him was that the all of the beauty of a field of flowers can be contained in one single morning glory. It can have the same level of opulence and and beauty basically. And that was kind of the, I think the main contention point between them is that eventually got came to a head and he ordered him to commit seppuku, not because of that experience, but kind of like just an ongoing thing and ritual.

20:23

Suicide, right? Yes, yes, he yeah, he ordered him to do that. And so I guess tying it back to Ichigo Ichie, one of the biggest sayings and tea ceremony that Rikyu wanted to communicate is that, you know, we're only here 1 moment in time and we should really appreciate that and focus on the humility of it all and that we're all just people and, and this experience we're sharing is never going to occur again. So even if we're in the same room together, if we come back to this place, maybe even on the same anniversary, we ourselves will be changed, we will be different. So really every moment is is

21:05

special. Every moment is exceptional in that way. And I think that placing that emphasis on the little things is is really important in tea ceremony and something that we pay homage to all the time. Beautiful. It's been a long time since I've heard that story. Brings me right back to Saturday and Sunday mornings on the tatami map.

21:26

See, that's one Ichigo Ichie. I will. That's true forever. That's. Right. That's right. That's right. For those listeners who might not be familiar with different key ceremony schools, could you give a brief summary of the Sansenke that kind of came out of Sen no Rikyu and then like briefly touch on and some of the other schools out there as well? I know there's way too many to name, but just like kind of the landscape of options if you're interested in becoming a tea ceremony student.

21:54

Yeah, for sure. So sadly Rikyu was ordered to commit seppuku and he was not able to carry on his legacy. However, three of his grandchildren were. The three prominent schools are Urasenke, Omotesenke, and Mushakoji Senke, and there are very subtle differences between the three of them. So if you were to observe the three, a typical ceremony, you probably wouldn't be able to pick up on the differences. However, if you do study one of these, you will. It really comes down to just little details. And really if they're accessible, I feel in your city or wherever you might live, I'd say try a couple, see how you feel, see how it it resonates

22:39

with you. But we we do all carry a lot of the same philosophy principles, like history obviously, obviously has that shared lineage. And there are some offshoots. There are smaller schools. Those are just the three biggest ones.

22:54

But you know, there's, there's samurai class ones that that you can still find dojos that teach this. You know, there are a lot of different like kind of slices and flavors that I think are really beautiful to get educated on, even if you have the opportunity to go to a talk or a seminar and and just see what they're all about.

23:18

But yeah, they all do carry the same kind of core philosophy of Ichigo Ichie, you know, the host and the guest exchange and just giving the best possible experience and to your guest. And just to, for anyone who's considering studying, I'll, I'll do a little plug for your school Urasenke, the which is by far the most international. So if depending on what city you're in, it's much more likely that an Urasenke practice is going on near you versus an Omotesenke or some of the other tea ceremony schools. And so if but if you're like looking of moving in your adult life and this is something you really want to pursue long term, Urasenke is probably makes the

24:10

most sense for most people, unless you're really in like a tier one city that happens to have an Urasenke practice like let's say New York City, for example. That's a great clean. Yeah, I don't know if there's any Omotesenke school presence in the United States. Yeah, I've never heard.

24:30

Of I don't believe so yeah, although Ryan and I got our photo with one of the higher ups in their school in New York, yeah, the iemoto, the iemoto's next. Yeah, Grandmaster. Oh, really? And we? Went to a talk at the Japan Society. It was in 2018 maybe.

24:48

Oh wow, yeah I'm still bum they never sent that photo but it's OK. That would have been cool. That was a cool talk. Talk about someone who has gravitas in a presence. Yeah, they have to carry a lot. You know, these airs, it's a lot on their shoulders, he talked about. Raku a lot, didn't he?

25:06

Raku. Yes, he talked. About a very prominent Raku family and I remember specifically about how he did a a ceremony he did with them. He showed us the tea room and like how they carried fire and water down the mountain and it was this epic thing to do this with this family. It made me really inspired to go learn more about Raku and I was in Kyoto, I don't know, two years ago went to the Raku museum.

25:34

Actually I think he used to inspired me to do that is where that kind of idea came from to to go do that, which I highly recommend. Very interesting and just to emphasize that point, that tea ceremony being an amalgamation of hospitality in Japan. It's also like one of the reasons I chose it was because of the merging of the arts that it is and just how much you get to learn about these families and the, the history that they have tied into tea ceremony.

26:05

And I mean, even matcha production rate, like there's, there's famous farms and matcha companies endorsed by the, the grandmasters. And so it really like most Japanese arts, I feel like it's just a surface level way to unlock these deeper rabbit holes and understanding you can kind of dive forever down into and you learn, you uncover so much the more you go. And it's it's really you will never be bored with this these practice.

26:36

Absolutely. So many art forms involved in the tea ceremony, right? You have, you know, tea first of all. And then you have all the ceramic wares. You have calligraphy or ink painting, you have flower arrangement. Ikebana, you. Have all the bamboo utensils.

26:55

Yeah, bamboo utensils. Lacquer utensils also probably makes it an expensive hobby. You go down the rabbit hole. It is, it is. It's my only hobby because it's the only one I can afford. Yeah, it's half kidding. I have a lot of tea stuff so it's OK.

27:15

All right. Speaking of tea education and tea schools, Iceland, can you talk a little bit about your startup journey and the founding of Pudohan? Yeah. So that I've been through many different phases with Pudohan. It started during my New York City days, finding ways to incorporate the Zen of tea into my everyday life. And I was in a start up company with Ryan at the time and I saw lots of opportunities to help professionals in the tech space find peace and mindfulness through tea as well. That was what ignited my workshops in offices like We Work and other corporate Wellness events. And then through the years after

28:01

moving to Denver, my current base, I found that I got I really got enjoyment through not just educating small groups about matcha and mindfulness, but also getting an opportunity to strengthen my practice through each ceremony I put on for others. And that gives me a lot of joy.

28:19

While it is really a mutually beneficial thing, it's more of AI think it's more of a smaller scale and not so corporate as it was before though. And I still kind of emphasize the important of mindfulness and, you know, education about matcha and really just giving people like a space and an opportunity to be exposed to tea ceremony and also process like some events going on in their life.

28:46

Like, I had a great ceremony last year that was actually for the anniversary of their son's death, who was really, really interested in tea ceremony and Japanese culture and art and everything. And so I never met this guy, but the family came to me because they wanted to do something that he loved and they wanted to kind of experience his joy through something he loved. And through this whole ceremony, I got to know these people and also like they got to process their grief in a way that was really beautiful.

29:25

And I also got to like kind of meet this person through the ceremony, which was a really, really powerful experience. So today I really enjoy just kind of getting to the different modes that I get to see T Ceremony helpful to people and resonate with them. And I think it's just a very adaptable way to show people something they never learned before and kind of see how they can use it in their life, which is really cool. Yeah.

29:57

That's a great way to connect with people on all levels. It's. Yeah. Wow, very heavy. It was. It was. It was a heavier 1 for sure, but it was, it was kind of a medium to hold everybody together in, in a way that, and I mean, emotionally, right, like people, it was a very emotional time, but I think that it helped them process and give enough structure so that they could have a safe space to process that and, and keep it together kind of. So I think it's, I've had a lot of interesting emotions come up out of being told that A, it's OK to have this space and B, present.

30:42

I think so much we're so busy moving through our lives that we simply just don't have permission to be present and slow down and kind of breathe and not worry about anything else. One of the and this is all like old principles, you know, it's so applicable to today's world, but I just tell people like you something that they told people.

31:05

I mean, even in the beginning was like, hey, time doesn't exist outside these walls. Like once you're in here, you don't have to worry about who you are when you were outside those walls. And that's really powerful for some people to, I think, take their armor off, so to speak, like we know the samurai, right, could.

31:23

It was one of the only places they could take their boards off and and feel safe. And it was respectful, too, of course. But it was really to show that, you know, we're all equal here. And nothing exists outside the tea room. Not even You can't.

31:37

You shouldn't wear a watch either. You asked me what you should do at a tea ceremony. Don't wear a watch, is the other thing. Or jewelry. Yeah. OK. Yeah, OK. So it's like an equalizer. Like it's. A. Well, the story. Is yes, that and also to respect the the wear so you don't scratch anything because we don't know how expensive these wears are that we're handling and we don't want to crack anything or be that person that were to damage something for sure. Yeah.

32:08

Oh, sounds like a wonderful thing. How do I sign up? I'll give you some links after this podcast. And we, we can post them in the show notes too, or anyone who's interested. So we're, it's interesting like we started and you started even earlier than I did studying tea ceremony at a time where macho was not fully mainstream. In fact, I think in the university town where we were in central PA, I don't, other than Starbucks, I don't think anyone served matcha.

32:43

And I remember, I don't know, it must have been 20/13/20. Yeah, no, no one did. And in 2013 to 2014, one of our instructors who was based, I think, around New York City was telling me how cool it was that they went into the city and they had matcha there. And to them, this was like really novel, a kind of a proud moment of cultural adoption of this thing that they love. But now it's moved from extreme novelty to you see it everywhere and you have all this tea ceremony equipment being used in a cafe setting.

33:17

So what are your thoughts about using this traditional equipment in a cafe setting? Yeah. So I think it's evolved a lot, as you know, of course, but I think it comes back down to some of the simple principles. Like I've seen milk frothers, I've seen people trying to like, we actually, we've tried to siphon it V60 it like 2 traditional coffee methods, you know, But I think there's many ways to enjoy matcha. It's all about the ratio and, and your foam and, and whatever your goal is, right?

Aislynn · 33:48

But I think what I appreciate about and this whole retrofitting thing is that even an old art like has its awareness to change. You know, every so often the grandmaster will slip in a new rule that updates what we knew before. Usually it's an improvement or an optimization. Sometimes it's just like, hey, I, I want to do this and change the style and I'm going to do it. So we all have to adapt.

Aislynn · 34:15

But I think that as times change, they know in order to survive, we have to adapt. And you know, they even have adjusted some temae or procedures is another word for it. But for tabletop or westernized sittings, for example, it's not so necessary to sit in a kimono or even in seiza on your knees, right without a block or something to help you. So like there's ways that we're we've adapted to the times. But what I love about modern Dogu and kind of what matcha companies are doing nowaday are how they adapt matcha to the modern experience.

Aislynn · 34:52

In the same vein, for example, in Chinese tea, like we talked about, the goal is to create the best brew of a specific tea possible. And in Japanese tea, it's quite different. You're using multiple tools to create the best experience and enjoy the tea.

Aislynn · 35:10

I mean, sure, you care about how the matcha's prepared, but that's just one part of it. And simply showing up to a tea room back in the day was a remarkable thing in itself. So all of these factors went into your perception of your bowl of matcha, not just the technique of whisking.

Aislynn · 35:28

And today I think you have the luxury to spend a week preparing for a ceremony or days to travel to a tea room. So these new methods of serving matcha really help people enjoy the tea in their busy lives. Like even you're the Sanko bowls and the way Hannah is promoting, you know, high quality matcha in the moment, like a kit to go, you know, quickly.

Aislynn · 35:56

I think all of the ways, the more science we're understanding, you know, the more we progress that way in preparation methods even are just another way to I think have the best experience that we can too. So I think it's really important, all that's to say, and I think it's a positive change in general.

Zongjun · 36:15

Yeah, totally, totally agree. And you you only see it getting better and better. Yes, talking about the matcha scene, I will, I want to add that I think it's also amazing to see how not only a taste for matcha and the health benefits has boomed. That wasn't there before.

Zongjun · 36:32

But I think since COVID, the desire for meaningful experiences has improved, increased too. And I don't know about you, but I've seen an increase in just like the interest in tea ceremony, the inquiries into having a tea ceremony in Denver, even post COVID.

Zongjun · 36:51

I think people really are craving an intimate, mindful experience that gives meaning to life. And I just think that that's another like cultural shift we've had in the last three years or so, too. Yeah, absolutely. And we've heard that too.

Zongjun · 37:08

A lot of people have gotten into much just like since COVID and like a really deep down the rabbit hole like it's we've talked to a lot of people like that actually. Yeah, yeah, That's awesome. It's kind of a way to unlock more, right? Like it's just a surface way to kind of learn more about the ceremony and the history of this beverage. And you know what?

Zongjun · 37:30

How we got to where we are today. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. So I guess as we're wrapping up, for anyone out there who's just preparing matchas, a ritual in their daily life, whether or not they're interested in tea ceremony, what is 1 core principle from tea ceremony that could improve or elevate their own tea practice as they sift the matcha and whisk it and boil the water and, and, you know, do all the steps necessary mechanically to create matcha. What's something that can elevate that experience that we can take from tea ceremony, take from chanoyu. So one story that I love to keep in mind is something Rikyu told his students.

Aislynn · 38:19

So there's an old tale that a student once asked Rikyu, you know, how do I learn to become a tea master? And what do I have to do, basically? And Rikyu replied, well, I'll tell you. There were series of five steps or so, but what it really came down to was you are simply boiling water.

Aislynn · 38:43

You are making the tea and you are serving it to your guest. And when the student heard this, he was a little upset. And he was like, that's it. And he's like, that's really all you have to say to me. And he said, well, he's like, if you can successfully host a ceremony and do these things for your guest and remaining centered and peaceful and calm, then I will become your student. And the moral of the story is that at the end of the day, we kind of what you said about Michelin star restaurants, right?

Aislynn · 39:18

We're just, we are just boiling tea, whisking the tea and serving it to our guests. That is true. But when you understand the intention behind what we're doing, that's kind of where the magic happens. And I think that's kind of where the change happens and, and what you're putting into it. And truly, when you know all that goes into making a ceremony, just boiling the water and just whisking the tea, making sure it's delicious and your guest is having a good time.

Aislynn · 39:50

Anyone who's hosted a dinner party knows that that is not the easiest thing to do with a lot of different factors going into it. So I think the moral for me is that through doing mundane things, through doing the simple things, we can really create something, something exceptional. And if I am stressed or if I have to do something difficult, one of the biggest comforts for me is to just. Breathe, calm down.

Aislynn · 40:19

Remember that at the end of the day, we're just making tea. That's all it is. It might look fancy, it might look like a lot, a lot of details and a lot of showmanship, but at the end of the day, we're just boiling tea, boiling water and serving tea for our guests.

Aislynn · 40:35

And as long as you can come back to that, that center and making sure that that's what you're, you're humbling yourself and doing really you can do anything and, and you can put whatever you want into that. And I think that that's a really powerful thing that I take into my daily life with me through through studying tea ritual, difference.

Aislynn · 40:56

Between like the mundane and the ritual. Everything can be a little ceremonious. There's, there's transformation exactly, exactly. And there's lots that you can, you can do and I think transform through ritual. Yeah. Absolutely. I think that's a great note to end on. Thank you so much for sharing so many things. Yeah, so many beautiful things.

Ryan · 41:19

Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. It was really fun to to chat. Thanks so much. So I think that's all we have time for today. If anyone of our listeners enjoyed this episode, please consider following this podcast or recommending it to a friend.

Ryan · 41:34

And definitely check out Voodoo and T if you're ever in Denver. And we'll put all of Iceland's links in the comments below. And thank you so much for listening. We'll see you on the next one. See you in the next episode.

Zongjun · 41:50

Thanks. Thank you.