Interview with Cosmic Cultures, Lissi and Zach

Ryan · 0:05

Hello and welcome to the Specialty Matcha Podcast. My name is Ryan. This is Zongjun Li, who also goes by Sam and we're the cofounders of Sanko Matcha Products. Yeah. We launched this podcast to discuss our learning journey, Matcha, share startup stories and interview experts.

Zach · 0:19

And today we have Lizzie and Zach from Cosmic Matcha joining us. Welcome guys. How are you guys? Yeah. So before we jumping out to all the questions, maybe can you guys share a little bit about your personal and your professional background? Yeah, so I can definitely start personal background real quick. I've always been in health and Wellness in some way. So really young.

Zach · 0:39

Like when I was 19, I was actually a personal trainer at Equinox. I, I just like walked in and yeah, very young and green and they took a shot on me and I stayed there for like 4 years. One of my clients and I actually decided to open up at the time. We're in Dallas right now.

Zach · 0:57

And it was one of the first organic cold press juice bars. And we were also doing some other stuff with, we actually sold matcha and served matcha. They're totally different obviously, than what we're doing now. This was 2016, but it was, I guess you could say, the first legitimate entry into matcha, not as cosmic cultures.

Lissi · 1:16

So we did that. That lasted quite a while. We decided to split ways as partners. It's actually where I met Lisi though as a customer so. So and I event hospitality background always Intel and Wellness to some personally. And when a awesome cold pressed juice bar that was actually used organic like fruits and vegetables, I was all in like first in line and that's How I Met Zach. So that was 2016 and.

Zach · 1:42

It was kind of towards the end of of that project, or at least my, my involvement in the project then yeah, my, my time kind of opened up and Lisa and I started started dating soon after and just kind of like organically of all that and then I. Think the fermentation really started because you started what you had always consumed.

Zach · 2:02

Like fermentation, vegetables wise was at root and. Yeah, So that concept, we made and sold fermented vegetables, right as among many other menu items, and people really latched onto those. Again, this was like 2016. Back then, the space was just very different.

Zach · 2:18

And especially in Texas, it was not like the West Coast where we also have roots to the West Coast. So just seeing the contrast of what was going on on the West Coast and being in Texas really kind of led way to the road that we're on now. I mean, this was like obviously very beginning origin, but making those fermented vegetables there and then meeting Lisi and then kind of going down a personal relationship, we're like, you know what, why don't we make the fermented vegetables and fermented foods a business and start shipping them and selling them. And it was, again, no business plan. We were just making them, giving

Zach · 2:56

them to friends. And then people started, we created a Shopify store and people started ordering them. And then it was like we started getting wholesale requests. And we brought Air 1. Way too early like. Way too early. We jumped in, somebody gave, I don't even know what, his DT. Something the family that owns.

Lissi · 3:17

Family some of our vegetables and they contacted us. No, they contacted you. They're not cool. We reached out probably like, I don't know, five times and just never got a response. And it was like one day I was sitting on my computer and it was like, Hey, we want to do a purchase order. I don't even know if they tried them. They're they're like, we want to just put them in all the stores, all the SKU's all at once immediately. And we're sitting there like halfway running this out of our house still.

Ryan · 3:45

And we're just like, sure, let's go. And like, I'm not considering like being food manufacturers or or whatever it was. What were the products? Was it like things like sauerkraut or was it more obscure or? Or like kimchi.

Zach · 4:01

Or. Yeah. So I mean, I feel we did do our version of a kimchi in terms of it had gochugaru in it. So it had Korean chili pepper. And but if you were talking to a very traditional, you know, somebody Korean who consumes or makes kimchi, they would probably not consider it kimchi because instead of Napa cabbage, we used green cabbage or a mixture.

Zach · 4:23

So it was like more of a kraut chi, I guess you could say that specific one, but we had multiple varieties. So we had some that, you know, like with our wild dill crop, for example, it had dill and garlic. But then we would use some more obscure plants.

Zach · 4:38

Like there was there's actually a Japanese plant that was in there called Ashitaba, which I don't know, people drink it as tea and it's called Ashitaba. It's. Very earthy. Earthy vegetable. It's not, you know, and it's really, it's one of those things that I've always been so intrigued by because you'll see there's a couple Japanese brands that sell it as steep tea.

Zach · 5:01

We had a powder which you could whisk it up like matcha, but it's not grown like matcha in terms of it's not shaded right. And it's, it's not grown. I haven't found a powder, at least I haven't seen one on the market that is grown to be delicious as like a straight T It's, it's also interesting because it's caffeine free. OK.

Zach · 5:22

And I have, yeah. I mean, I, I still, honestly, I still have interest in looking into Ashitaba more and seeing the potential because it's just, it's not widely known, but it's, it's a plant that's been consumed for a very long time.

Zach · 5:35

It's known as tomorrow's leave because if you, yeah, if you pluck a blood, a bud, it's said to regenerate within 24 hours. So it's in kind of goes into the, you know, proposed health benefits of Rejuvenate Tonic. It's, you know, widely been used for like, beauty, skin health and rejuvenation.

Ryan · 5:52

Cool. Actually, I think there's a big space open in matcha for like blending and other things. Zongjun and I started our like tea journey at the Tea Institute at Penn State, and we invited a Korean group to come and present mostly on Korean tea. But it turns out they have like this pseudo matcha tea ceremony, very much less structured than what the Japanese have. And he took like really high end ginseng, like probably jar was like 150 bucks and he took a scoop of that and two scoops of matcha and whisked it together and it was it was good. Matcha came from like some one of the famous Uji houses and just blew my mind.

Zach · 6:29

I. Was like, you're like, whoa, yeah. Like this is like flavored matcha in like a way I want to consume it, you know? It's not like someone's added in like flavors or anything. It's 2 like unique ingredients that you wouldn't think of putting together. And then it's like this Symphony. Yeah, that's so I mean, we, yeah, like the vegetables that people, you know, would recognize as sauerkraut. And then we'd have so many people that would say, you know, I am not a fermented vegetable sauerkraut. I despise it, won't touch it.

Zach · 6:57

And we actually converted tons of people. But I will say yeah. And I think what going down this path of now we're selling to seven or eight Erewhon stores plus like a bunch of other small health food stores, plus trying to do direct orders and basically growing way too quickly while also we got pregnant.

Lissi · 7:19

And there's just this whole snowball effect of is this. Do we want to be in man? Do we want to be food manufacturers? Because when we when we started, you know, it was like you don't consider it. We're like products based company, right?

Zach · 7:31

Like we're passionate about these products. Something we consume. Yeah, we make them every day or we, we consume them every day. We make them, you know, bimonthly, monthly, whatever. Not thinking about like this is what our life is going to look like scaling this type of business. And of course, we launched it at the end of 2019. We were doing farmers markets and all that. COVID hit in March of 2020 also boosted us, especially online like people all of a sudden became an. Wellness thing, yeah.

Lissi · 8:00

The immune system, fermented foods, probiotics. It boosts your gut health. Yeah. Because you talk about the vegetables, we also did fermented coconut yogurt. So we threw in the freezer and the process of getting the coconut meat here.

Zach · 8:14

Coconut meat from Thailand, that's. The water and the process of of getting the water, I mean all of that together on top of the sensitive vegetables that fermented for weeks. So. So yeah, we. Going into that a little more, yeah, like we were bringing in coconut that's scooped and frozen on the spot in Thailand. So certified organic coconut, they drain the water, freeze it in these like Mylar, like, you know, high quality bags. And then so very heavy, right?

Zach · 8:42

Like bricks of coconut water, bricks of coconut meat. They come in on a shipping container on a pallet. Then we had cold storage that we had to store it in. So the logistics. And then obviously when we're shipping this stuff, it's heavy, it's in glass, it needs to stay refrigerated. If we're shipping it directly to a customer, it needs to get there, especially in the summer within like 48 hours. So you're talking about scaling a business? We had to use glass, so it made it even heavier because we're just accept the shipping.

Lissi · 9:10

Curious that we are, it's like we're never going to put like an acidic food in plastic. And you know, so it's our convictions made a already challenging business ultra challenging. You end up not working on anything that you actually like doing.

Lissi · 9:26

Maybe 2% of the time and, and to be honest, like, I think, I think jumping into something like Erewhon where you, you and, and which was super flattering, but it, you know, it did really well there to the point like where we flew out there to look at the shelves because these purchase orders were, I think by the end of it, we were behind like 200 purchase orders.

Lissi · 9:47

Like I'm not even kidding. And it was. Like OK. Yeah, they was just to the point where it was just out literally out of control. And we got, we were like, we need to go like look at the shelves and stuff being rotated right.

Ryan · 9:58

And it was just like just we'd send it there and then it would be gone in 2 days. Drowning in your own success. We, yeah. But I think sourcing is obviously, I think the backbone of our business really is. Obsessed with knowing the product inside and out and then.

Lissi · 10:17

It's something that we consume, something that they consumed 100 years ago, like we a. 100 like 1000 thousands. Yeah, I say hundreds basic to my family. 100 if it's. Not 100 years ago. Then don't put it in your body. But right, yeah, I mean, that is that's a good point.

Lissi · 10:32

Yeah, I say 1000 and your head doesn't go that far back. I think sourcing just really important to us. And so when we bring up our child indeed, because when you have that type of transition in your family and you're looking at it and we're drawing maps of of production facilities and looking what, what are, you know, next steps?

Zach · 10:54

And our journey looks like that was something where I guess we should talk about because we needed a bigger facility. So moving into, do you want to kind of like jump? Into I was going to say it's like a perfect time to kind of like this is the very beginning of like how we ended up on like what we're doing today was so back to that original cafe that that I opened in 2016. The project started at the end of 2014 and it was in a very, at least for, for Dallas, like highly walking traffic, like the best retail real estate you could have. And I had this, this relationship with the landlord. Well, obviously during COVID,

Zach · 11:34

they suffered quite a bit. And you know, I just reached out to him. We were having trouble finding a production facility, right? And he was like, hey, I have this retail space. It's 1200 square feet. There's all the plumbing's done. There's a little kitchen in the back. It's actually, I mean, it's kind of a sad story, but it was a tea shop that opened up in March of 2020. And suffice it to say, yeah, it just did not go well. They put like all this money into the build out. It was this really a truly beautiful space. And we're like, OK, like this is a curveball. Like we really just need production. We don't need anything customer

Zach · 12:12

facing and he's like if you take the space, he's like I'll give you this deal on it, but you have to have something customer facing. You have to have some kind of concept in the front. We you can't just like have the door shut 24/7. You like sell your firmaments and bring in other like retail and and have it because of the the traffic of the space. Right.

Zach · 12:29

Yeah. So we were like, you know what this deal is? It's interesting. It's kind of like a semi permanent pop up in a way. You know, we're right next to Sephora actually. Like we shared a wall with Sephora. So we had all this like young, you know, there's Barry's boot camp across the street. There's like suit supply over here. There's like, so it's like this young professional demographic just coming in constantly.

Zach · 12:54

And we're like, so for us, what makes sense is what do we know? We're we love sourcing products and offering unique products. So we basically made the front like a mini bodega. Little there was like there's no real grocery store over there.

Zach · 13:07

So we're like high quality olive oil. They're little selfish. Haverty in Texas. That you wanted. To bring. So we brought in all those things and something that we consumed every day on our own was Matcha. Yeah, so and we put in like a little like tea bar, matcha bar.

Zach · 13:24

And we also threw in in a little for like, I don't know, people in the coffee world. There's we have friends actually in in Los Angeles that that own a coffee, a coffee brand. So we like reached out to them and we're like, it's a good way to draw people in to have, you know, coffee, tea matcha.

Zach · 13:40

That's like on the sign outside. And we put in a little espresso machine, one of those like La Marzocco minis. So we're just like totally naive and just open the doors like did no marketing. And then all of a sudden people started coming in and we sold much more matcha than coffee.

Zach · 14:01

And we were like, OK, this is this is interesting. You know, people would come in and they were just like very interested in matcha. And this was like in 20. We were the only people that actually whisked it. We obviously hand whisked it in. In Dallas?

Ryan · 14:15

Like where the process was completely different. So a lot of people just saw like. Like those squeeze bottles of like they pre made for full volume concentrates. I was in Dallas like, I don't know, nine months ago and ordered a few matchas at some random places. I don't think it's improved.

Zach · 14:33

No. We hear that all the time. You guys were early. Well, I mean, so like when I was 2016, it was much different and then and 2022. So like we're not thinking about any of this, right? Because like we're just making matcha at home and we're sourcing, you know, high quality, delicious matcha from, you know, our contacts in Japan at this time, right?

Zach · 14:52

And we don't even consider like what the average consumer is walking into everyday when they're either ordering a matcha online to prepare at home or like whether they're ordering it out of Cafe and it's being served to them.

Zach · 15:05

We only know our experience, right? So all of a sudden now for the first time, we have the general public walking into this space. And it was like, instantly people are like, Oh my God, this is the best match I've ever had.

Zach · 15:17

And we're just like. And I want to know. Like. We and not knocking on, but we didn't add a lot of ads like we wanted people to actually. Take no syrup. So we didn't have a lot of, so we, you know, our matchas and then we made, because we had a lot of extra coconut, we made coconut milk from scratch, which people like, loved. Which then again, the coconut turned into another problem. It's like we'd run out of coconut milk and I'm just like. But you know, we did, you know, all of and then we did obviously like milks and then we had some like Maple for our. Yeah, Maple syrup was like the only people would be like, So what syrups do you have?

Zach · 15:56

And we're like you heard of Vermont Maple syrups? It was delicious and people actually think we're able to enjoy and taste the matcha, which was, you know, and the feedback was great. Like we had to actually hire additional people to. Yeah.

Zach · 16:11

So then we're like, OK, like this is again not the business that I'm not, I'm not trying to hire baristas and you know, scale coffee, matcha tea shop. Like this is not slash grocery stores slash production facility. I'm like. But organically, people started as we want, we want your matcha, where do you get your matcha?

Zach · 16:31

So we're like, oh, we'll just like do a few of them and like have them like on the shelf for people to purchase. And then we couldn't keep up with what we had to decide. We had to that was like, and, and then we just kind of that path started to like become more clear.

Zach · 16:46

It's like, OK, our child's now, you know, he's, he's still an infant, but going into toddler stage and we're like had this opportunity like do we want to and other things like post COVID, right, with scaling, going back to the fermented food scaling that brand in 2019 or like with the prospects of what scaling look like. And the path just everything changed after COVID in terms of like how people were shopping and you know, just grocery shopping in general and just all of it. And it just distribution was a big sticking point. So if we were to continue down that path, it's like going and working with Whole Foods and all

Zach · 17:23

that. The industry became, it was already like complicated and it became even more logistically complicated. And especially for refrigerated products, it was, it's, it's the most competitive space in a grocery store because you have this much space compared to the shelf staple space, which is like much more vast, so.

Zach · 17:42

Yeah, and you have like a living perishable product in a cold chain. Exactly. And it became very clear. It's like, OK, well, this seems like there's so much interest, right? And then where we are now, obviously we'll get there, but it's kind of like one of those things where we're like, why didn't we see this path a long time ago?

Zach · 18:02

Like it's something that we're obviously passionate about, something that we bring into our life and practice every single day, multiple times a day. And you know, we were just so deep with, with our other products that were like, and so attached to them. Because, you know, that's like one thing I would say, Lisa and I and any founder, I think, or business is you become so emotionally wrapped up in what you're doing. And it's, it's just like such a part of you that to like, even if you know it's the right decision to cut something off or to change course, it's still hard to do right? Like so you might have this idea

Zach · 18:38

that hey, we need to kind of change course, but just getting to that point might take several more months before you're like, OK, we need to like pull the plug on this and like re evaluate because you're just it's so part of.

Lissi · 18:50

Yeah, I think if it wasn't for our son, it probably would have taken us a lot longer because we we knew like having this, what our, our goals and the journey we wanted to have with him and and his upbringing, what we needed to do.

Lissi · 19:05

So I think we were able to kind of like had a clear vision, I guess. Being nailed down to a production facility like just didn't seem like the right path, right? Like. And we also wanted to be flexible. We love to travel and we wanted him to experience what we experience and traveling and being flexible and not pinned down to, you know, a space like we we definitely.

Lissi · 19:27

A physical location, right Physical location and a lot of time with brick and mortar. So it was, you know, the first project and then like even though not customer facing like thinking about getting into another lease and another brick and mortar project, it was just, it just didn't feel right you had to make. A choice.

Ryan · 19:43

Yeah. You guys are pretty like unique point of view when it comes to like matcha and matcha sourcing. I remember I first came across your brand when Cole from my Matcha addiction gave a really rave review. I think he said is the best organic matcha he'd ever had.

Zach · 19:58

Yeah, I think that was probably the second time we sent and those I specifically, I knew to send these to to Cole because I knew his affinity for matcha specifically from Gokou, Uji, right? He I knew it was his his favorite. And I was like, OK.

Zach · 20:15

And I also knew his kind of stance on organic in general, right? Yeah, that's what is really powerful for me. I was like wow. The influencer it's it's a wild world. I think that and so I think when we knew we wanted to connect with somebody like we were very like specific and who like with our intentions of who we reached out to.

Zach · 20:37

So we we love Cole, but I think exactly what you said like. We knew he would as far as organic and I mean definitely talk about like kind of our range and like what we have and where we're going. But those those specifically, he went exactly the way we thought it was, you know, he loved them and and those those specifically, they're extraordinarily rare, right? Like first of all, like, I mean, as you know, like organic cultivation in Uji is is beyond rare. Most organic you'd probably see coming from like Kagoshima or other regions or more, more higher elevation where it's easier in terms of like the pest

Zach · 21:17

control because where where those matcha specifically come from, it's it's not at a high elevation. So you do have much more issues with pests and then also being that their competition level matcha like it's it took years and years of from the farmer and it, you know, the production standpoint to be able to even offer them to where the farmer was comfortable putting their name on it.

Zach · 21:42

It's not like a quick journey. It's a very tedious many things failed. It's not wasn't like, hey, we're going to do organic and now we have organic matcha the salts. It was a very long process. And when, when was that? When you guys first first start sourcing tea.

Zach · 22:00

First started sourcing tea that we made available like as under cosmic cultures yeah yeah so I think we rebranded right so cosmic cultures, the fermented foods that's that was the name of our brand and I think we like relaunched the new website at the beginning of 24 I mean I'm times running together.

Zach · 22:21

So it was like maybe the beginning of 24 end of 23 we started like teasing about it. We were obviously selling matcha through the the store and that was in 2022. But to actually, like put it out as, you know, an e-commerce sort of like website to where it was like live, yeah.

Zach · 22:40

Phasing out of phasing out and phasing in was the end of 23 and then I think we, we, we launched our website in 24th January of 20. 4th And I mean, that's a whole other story of just like the process of like something that should have been quicker and then getting it up online and obviously various roadblocks and then things started to obviously intensify.

Lissi · 22:59

And in between we were. With Macha specifically. Farmers markets. So that was like, yeah. We were still, yeah, we were still popping up and doing like little markets and stuff like that. So yeah, like online where a customer could go and order it, It was in 24 introducing the local community.

Zach · 23:15

It was like end of 22 and it was, but it was not it, it wasn't like widely known that we were doing that. So yeah, it was kind of like a tight knit thing at first. What? What's been your sourcing philosophy I guess since the beginning?

Zach · 23:32

And then maybe, I don't know if you're focused even more as you started to learn more into matcha, like how's that evolution been? So I mean, I know Lisa want to jump in as well, but for a lack of better terms, I would say organic, right, organically, kind of going into it in terms of how we, of our life, right? So like when we're buying food for ourself, we're buying food for our son, when we're cooking at home or even when we're traveling and looking for places to to go eat, we always look at sourcing and like, you know, low intervention, you know, farmers markets and direct relationships with, with the producer of the food.

Zach · 24:06

That's, that's a big passion of our, of ours. So it was no different with matcha and, and tea in general is, you know, we want to source tea that's in line with nature that there's this little synthetic intervention as possible. Because I mean, obviously there's intervention with, with growing tencha or matcha like producing because it's like you're actively shading it and you're like doing all these things, fertilizing the soil, but doing it in a way that's free of synthetics.

Zach · 24:36

You know, that was our kind of like our overall guideline. You guys have been sourcing organic matcha since 2022, like in the very beginning? Yeah, to offer to people, Yeah. And then our like knowledge and sourcing it personally really started where we kind of got opened up to it was after our first trip to Japan and kind of being introduced.

Zach · 24:59

To So we started going direct in 2017 and then one of the matcha that we consume personally was the one that we brought on. Our very first offering so our Sanko Usu One, one of our offerings today, so which is really special and we got to meet them for the first time our last trip there. So that was.

Zach · 25:16

It was, it was great to kind of like make that connection because there was the backbone of how we started, you know, and it's still, it's still our most, I mean probably our most popular in terms of, you know, it's been around the longest.

Zach · 25:29

So we have like such a base around it where, you know, as soon as people see it's back in stock or it's available, like it's, we don't really have to do anything. And that matcha specifically is it's an amazing, it's an amazing tea. You know, it's delicious on its own, but it also works well if if you're making a latte.

Ryan · 25:47

So I think that's why it has that versatility and, you know, yeah, it's just a delicious tea all around. Do you guys care about like JAS or like USDA organic? Because I know there's a lot of small producers that basically do no intervention other than the shading and but they can't call it like organic because they don't have the money to go through or it's too complex. So like, I don't know if that matters to you or your customers or like how do you draw that distinction too? Yeah.

Zach · 26:14

I mean, the short answer is no. Like we don't care about the the government body. That's like saying what it is. It's OK. Yeah, I mean. I think it's, I think the, with our like customers, the trust in us from the beginning of how we source is that we're vetting these and having these direct relationships where we understand the small that are doing it beyond organic, beyond the certifications. And and that's what our I think our, that's what our I think goal is.

Zach · 26:44

Yeah, Yeah. I mean obvious the goal is to offer right now it's, it's specifically focused on matcha, but very soon other tea and other things in general. And it's the goal for us. And it's always been the same whether it was the ferments or tea is that we know exactly what we're selling, right. We so if the producer of the farmer can't afford to have that certification, but we know for a fact that they're not using synthetic fertilizers and that they're not spraying then. And, and we obviously think the tea is delicious because above all of it, if the tea is not delicious, it doesn't matter if it's organic, right?

Zach · 27:20

It doesn't matter because like no one's going to even get to this conversation if they don't want to drink it. So yeah, I mean, the most important thing to us is making sure we know inside and out what we're offering. And we've always had that trust with our customers.

Zach · 27:33

We never, even though we were using wild and beyond organic and always at least certified organic on our other products like we've never put the label on on our product. Whoa. Interesting. Yeah, we've never had that label and customers have never, ever questioned us because I think just kind of like getting to know the brand that you can pretty quickly see like, hey, like we're consuming these every single day.

Zach · 27:59

You know, we're offering it to our child. We're we're very transparent in terms of like how things are grown and it's the power. Yeah, so. Because organic, it's a complicated thing. Like it's one of those things like it's just, it's a lot of politics, it's a lot of money. And like when you're sourcing from small people, like small farmers, like it's just like if you don't capture that nuance, you're leaving those people behind. Like they're typically the most interesting products. Yeah, especially like with with very small like lot production stuff, it's like, yeah, if if you are overly concerned with, with having that label, then

Zach · 28:37

yeah, I think you would, you would absolutely miss out on some beautiful things that that are beyond USDA or or you know, JAS. JAS is stricter than USDA. But at at the same time there's definitely things that are approved that I personally wouldn't want to consume every day even though they're they're legal and organic. It's to the benefit of these agencies for more people to become certified.

Zach · 29:06

So they're not going to make it impossible, right? So they're these these standards beat start becoming more relaxed in terms of what it is. JAS organic is not what most people think it is either. That's. And that's that's the other, I mean, this is probably a whole nother conversation, but we hear all the time from people that are like, well, conventionally grown in Japan, like it's obviously going to be pesticide free.

Zach · 29:31

Like there's this, we've even heard influencers and creators that are like, you know, yeah, like it comes from Japan. Like I don't need to worry about it being organic. And I'm like, well, there's literally so much tea that can't even go into Europe from Japan because it doesn't meet the residue standards. Or I mean, even if it does, right, like not really knowing what's on these leaves.

Zach · 29:52

And then all the a lot of these insecticides, pesticides, they're, they're water soluble. So it's like you're definitely pulling them out. I mean, and then you know, the whole argument again with matcha, it's like you're consuming the whole leaf. So there's an argument there that maybe it's even even more important to some extent if your goal and look like we totally understand, like I've had plenty of conventional matcha and I can understand the differences in a conventionally, you know, grown matcha where you're putting these synthetic fertilizers that directly manipulate the flavor, the outcome of the tea, the color, everything, right.

Zach · 30:30

And it's, it's kind of these two very distinct categories, but at the same time, then it's you can kind of make the argument and like where we kind of sit on this viewpoint is, are you actually drinking tea to some, to some like you are, but like, are these flavors that are being manipulated?

Zach · 30:48

It's kind of like what you see in the wine world where you have lower intervention wines and you have this somewhat like a volatile, some level of volatility in them. You know, it's nature, right? So I think we always take the stance of like wanting to work with nature as much as possible versus manipulating it so much to the point where this product now is, is so far removed from kind of maybe not what it should be, but where it what it was originally would be, right?

Zach · 31:18

Yeah. And even within that, as you know, there's like you have like zairai where it's like, you know, completely going to be super wild and flavor and like you never really know. And then you have well tended to well fertilized with, you know, lease or, you know, fish meal.

Zach · 31:35

And like it's, it's organic and it's, it's maintained in a way that's very precise. And that is an organic tea that that it's cared for and it's going to be delicious because the producer, the farmer has put in all these steps to produce the most delicious tea possible, right?

Zach · 31:54

How has it been? Sourcing organic so specifically like was it more difficult? In the IT must be hard. It's, it's very difficult and especially now with the shortage and and the demand for matcha sticking to our convictions, right, like wanting to only offer pesticide free.

Zach · 32:13

We've actually, we've turned down, we've turned down matcha that we know would sell well and we could bring on, but we've gotten close with some to where we felt decently comfortable. But then when we stop back, it's like, you know what, this is a moment in time. Like with the industry, everyone's scrambling, right? Like brands, producers, farmers, everyone's trying to figure this out right now.

Zach · 32:39

Pricing. If we can't grow as much this year, then we can't grow as much this year. You know, we're going to support the people that we want to support and we're going to stay true to the brand because like at the end of the day, that's that's what we have.

Zach · 32:52

And like, and you know, seeing where the pricing is going with some of the some of the tea, honestly, I think that there's going to be some die off of other brands. I think that obviously consumers are going to naturally things are going to level out a bit. Production obviously is is over the next few years should catch up to some level.

Zach · 33:11

So we're trying not to make any knee jerk reactions, support the people that we've always supported, supporting new people that we know are in line with our vision and and what we want to offer. That's that's kind of where we are now. So there's some new stuff coming on. I think it's the journey has been fun connecting and and just trying to connect and obviously being miles away. But just I think to your point though, having the relationships that we've had for the time has helped us getting new relationships.

Zach · 33:40

I think us being consistent and in our interactions and relationship this far with them has been super important into engaging in these new relationships that we're have coming on. So we do have some new. Yeah, we do have some like really new exciting and highly allocated like you know, matcha, right, specifically for matcha.

Zach · 34:01

And then with some of our other ones that we've we've been offering, we've been able to increase not as much as we've wanted to because our demand is definitely there to increase more. But you know, it's like we're like I said, we're we're trying to not add additional stress to a stressed out system. And you know, if, if, if a farmer producer is like, hey, we can only allocate this many kilos to you for the season, not pushing back, just, you know, realizing they're in a very tough position as well.

Zach · 34:30

And it. Seems like a lot of a lot of the farmers are producer kind of keeping to what you're like quotas or your quantities worthy your prior to kind of like share the love and and split it. But understanding what those new pricing looks like, I think naturally there's gonna be there's gonna be some problems. Yeah, more availability.

Zach · 34:49

And especially with with the like very rare, for lack of better terms, competent, you know, competition level teas. I think some of these brands that maybe brought them on, I would be shocked seeing some of the new pricing if at least for this season, if they're going to be able to continue or if they even have the customer base depending on how that customer is buying and using that tea, right?

Zach · 35:13

Because some, some of the increases were, you know, not so significant and some of the increases that we're seeing are groundbreaking for a lack of better terms. It's, you know, huge, huge different from from last season.

Ryan · 35:27

Yeah, well, especially where like you guys are sourcing too because it's when you limit, you know, no synthetics on the fertilizer or pesticide side on the competition grade, there's what 2-3 people maybe even less than make for sure like that.

Zach · 35:46

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's pretty incredible. And I think like that's where we we need to, we've obviously do the work, but need to really double down on the work because the price point of those teas for many people will probably be a bit of a shock at first. But then when you explain it's like, hey, you know, when you're at the airport and you're paying $10.00 for a plastic cup of like, you know, C-grade matcha, it's like, is it really that expensive or is it now the price that it should be because of what goes into it?

Zach · 36:20

I mean, you know, I don't know. I think also drawing the connection to more people of when they're making their tea, when they're making their matcha, it's like this whole entire year went into this one harvest and of this one harvest, it is not a lot. And so when you're when you're sitting there and making it, maybe it'll bring more of an awareness and intention behind what you're actually doing in that moment. Just reminded me when we on our last trip to Japan, one of my favorite quotes and takeaways from something that really resonated when that's when we were sharing how much we appreciated their tea and how

Zach · 36:56

big a part of a journey. He said he really appreciate it that you're not only just drinking the tea, but you're drinking the farmer's soul and and that really, I think just connects you to the experience and what you're drinking in front of you and the love that went into that.

Zach · 37:11

Yeah. I mean, and just the fact that I think more people know this fact now that it's like it takes an hour to stone mill 30 grams of matcha. So it's like, I think people are starting to hear that more. And I think those little pieces of information is like, it's such a new, you know, novel product for most people in the West, right? As compared to coffee.

Zach · 37:31

It's, it's not the consumers fault necessarily 100% right, Because how would they're, they're not educated and it's our, our job, right? Like companies like us to like educate. And hopefully, you know, when people see these price points, they're like, OK, well, that makes sense, right? Like it might cost for this matcha me making, you know, let's say 2G at home.

Zach · 37:55

Maybe that is going to cost me $10.00 for that specific matcha, but why? And OK, now I understand and it's worth it because this is this is not a product you can go buy at the grocery store. This is not a, you know, these aren't like mass produced carrots that are at every Whole Foods in the country. This is coming from us, you know, tiny lot from 1 garden milled on the property, milled on the estate and then, you know, package shipped directly to us and now we're giving it to you.

Zach · 38:23

So it's, it's this very intimate, you know, special products. There are a lot of human touch that went into the process. Yeah, exactly. And it's like people saying like Matcha's rare because it only represents 6% of the tea grown in Japan.

Zach · 38:41

And then you compare it to like like this like level like it's I, I really have a bone to pick with some of the marketing out there. It's like. Yeah. Say it's rare or this is a rare cultivar, but really like there's like worlds of differences in some of the sourcing.

Zach · 38:59

Yeah, ABS absolutely. And I think, you know, for us, right, like some of the specifically these high, highly allocated and very rare matches that we're talking about that are that are at this price point. These are, these are ones that we're proud to offer and that we are, you know, obviously humbled and grateful to be able to make available to people. But they're not our, they're not the, they're not the teeth that are growing our business, right?

Zach · 39:26

Like the, in terms of, for lack of better terms, scaling or offering more product, right? Like these are these are here for people that really want to expand kind of like their perception of what matcha is, what it can be, and specifically for us like what organic matcha can be if it's done very carefully, very precisely, very, very, very intentionally, right?

Zach · 39:51

Like not that the conventional ones aren't, but to like add that level of complication that organic brings. You know, it's really in a lot of it like the the fertilization, right? Like to get those flavor profiles with organic fertilization and to avoid the pests because when you're making if the tea is delicious to you.

Zongjun · 40:11

It's delicious to the bugs. I mean, it's, they're going to come for it and. Yeah. So out of curiosity on the supply side, have you seen like more farmers moving into organic or less like what's the dynamic right now? More in terms of us, More.

Zach · 40:26

Yeah, more. Maybe that's because that's what we're looking for, but we definitely have. Yeah. And, and I mean, like specifically can think of instances where farmers have mentioned an issue with pests that are resistant to like with every agricultural industry, right.

Zach · 40:44

So it's like you have these pests that are now becoming resistant to the pesticides, then they have to use more pesticides or different pesticides. And they recognize that this is a not a good cycle. This is not a sustainable cycle to just be using more.

Zach · 41:00

Natural selection your breeding superbugs. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, they, yeah, that's literally have seen that come up in conversation. So I think I think because of that, obviously, you know, there's a lot going on outside of just the quote UN quote boom with, with matcha's. Like obviously there's the whole environmental side of, of how tea in the production is being affected with, with the weather changing as well.

Zach · 41:25

It's it's there's a lot, yeah, there's a lot, a lot going on with with how much quality tea is available right now. And I mean, I'm sure you guys obviously know the yield this year was lower than previous years across Japan, but the quality was really good that hopefully with the prices being higher and the quality being so good this year, at least there's that. Yeah, at least it's a little more understandable. Right.

Zongjun · 41:53

Yeah, yeah, no, it's so it's interesting dynamics. Have you guys seen like better quality coming out of like I heard Kagoshima's making tons of investments in organic and I heard it wasn't very good like 10 years ago. I wasn't drinking single origin matcha back then but but I've heard now it's like really up and up.

Zach · 42:13

Yeah. And I mean, I think Kagoshima is now the number one producer of of matcha. I think that they take the number one spot. But yeah, like we there is a great climate there, right. And our for our Kodabuki is it's it's stone milled and Uji by an amazing tea house. And but the leaf itself is grown in Kagoshima. We have another matcha called our Kasumi with a farm that we work directly with.

Zach · 42:43

And the farmer that grows that is, is arguably the number one organic. But in terms of like innovation and, and how long he's been producing organic tea, it's they're, they're both of those teas are amazing and, and they have such unique qualities that are obviously very different than Uji, but in their own right are extremely high quality and delicious. And we're very excited about the potential of Kagoshima. We, we have actually a new farm that we've been working on for a while.

Zach · 43:17

There's, you know, it's, it's funny because like some farms and producers, you have this language barrier, right? This inherent language barrier. And for whatever reason, I don't know if it's like whatever translator apps or that, you know, that are being used. We've met in person and there's not a lick of English, right? Zero English.

Zach · 43:36

But when we communicate by e-mail, it's super clear, there's no problem. And then we'll talk with other people. And it's very challenging, right? Like even with the app, it's like it's, it's very challenging. And what could take a month with somebody else might take six months, but, but this so there is, there is a, a newer, I shouldn't say a newer farm. They've they've been producing sencha for a really long time and they've converted a lot of their sencha fields. As you've seen this trend happening kind of across the Japan is to to more tencha.

Zach · 44:12

And they actually just built a brand new tencha processing facility and they're really kind of setting up to, to produce some amazing matcha. And we sampled some a couple months ago. And that's kind of like what I'm saying I maybe even more than a couple months ago.

Zach · 44:29

And we really, we really love what they're doing. And we're we're still in conversation in September. Yeah, we have a interpreter. Joining in September, we're gonna have an interpreter joining and in next time and and now we have so like we have multiple TS right coming from Kagoshima. So when we go back to when we're back in Japan, I'm actually really excited to go down to Kagoshima and visit because we did not make it on on our last trip when we saw you guys. I actually have a kind of a, you know, related question to, you know, like your fermentation background. Like.

Zach · 45:03

Have you guys? Ventured into like those fermented Japanese tea, like our bancha or like koicha. We haven't. I think like naturally that would be a great exploration for us just to be transparent, like after the matcha has just been so consuming with everything going on, right? Like it's, it's, we've had to really put a lot of effort into making sure that we secure the matcha that we need and the producers that we want to work with, right. So when things things are starting to settle a little bit more, we've really wanted to bring on some some delicious sencha and gyokuro and and stuff like that. So we are those are going to be

Zach · 45:40

our next offerings outside of matcha. And then beyond that, yes, absolutely. Some some more fermented teas I think would would be great for us. But but yeah, I mean, we're we're excited. I think like that was one thing to like cosmic cultures, right? Like the name and why we kept the name and we never wanted to pinhole ourselves into matcha only right, or, or one or ferments or whatever we were doing. We wanted to like keep, keep the opportunities available to us as we see fit or makes sense for our brand because we don't, we learned we don't know.

Zach · 46:15

You start a project, right? Obviously we'll always have matcha, always, always have tea. But who knows, right? Like where this is going to lead to. Fashion's a big driver for sure. So I guess moving forward, like how do you see the matcha conversation evolving in the next, I don't know, 5 to 10 years, especially around organic and synthetics and pesticides and fertilizer.

Zongjun · 46:41

How how do you what would be the ideal end state as you see it as like the whole industry kind of evolves and we all like gather new perspectives and try new flavors and new teas and to understand these agricultural practices.

Lissi · 46:55

That's a good question. I mean, obviously 100% my, my viewpoints and I it's think, I think it will be easier to find high quality, delicious organic matcha. Like definitely understand the perspective that organic tea doesn't taste as good. But I also think a lot of that is because there hasn't been as much poured into it, right?

Lissi · 47:19

Because maybe there there necessarily didn't need to be. So it was working perfectly in terms of producing these high quality teas the way it had been done. And just to like kind of like go back on that all tea was organic before 100 years ago in the sense of what we're talking about because these these chemicals just didn't exist, right or the synthetic. So I think going back to using what we know now about fertilization and also working with nature, I'm very excited about like what is going to become available to people and shifting the the paradigm on what high quality organic matcha can look like.

Lissi · 47:57

So I think that's definitely that's one huge positive, right. And then the other part of your question, like in terms of like where the matcha industry's headed is that, yeah. And like people's perception of it and like these conversations, because right now the conversation is like organic matcha is sometimes good, it's mostly bad.

Lissi · 48:16

Right. Like, and the reality is because I hold both beliefs, I think like, fertilizer is important and pesticides can be important. On the other side, I'm like very deeply disturbed by some of the agricultural practices in Japan.

Lissi · 48:30

And like we want to see innovation in this space. You know, there's there's a class of pesticides, insecticides, neonicotinoids, if I am not like pronouncing it perfectly, but it's for whatever reason, the words hard for me to pronounce.

Lissi · 48:45

But that class of pesticides is, is is very problematic neurologically, cardiovascularly. It's terrible for your gut health hormones, specifically reproductive hormones, women's hormones, as are a lot of of things that are synthetic. But but this class is is particularly disturbing and it's they're water soluble.

Lissi · 49:11

They're used, they're heavily used in tea production post harvest or post production. It's something that, I think if we can see that being scaled back or that class of pesticide or insecticide being scaled back, I think it's only going to benefit not just humans, but the environment.

Lissi · 49:29

And I, there's farmers that have switched. We've, we've seen stories of farmers who have switched from conventional farming, right? Maybe it's a third generation farmer, 4th generation farmer, tea farmer that has switched to organic because they saw somebody in their family get sick from a certain type of synthetic, right?

Lissi · 49:52

And it motivated them to take the risk because that to switch from conventional and it's been working at generations, right. And then to be like, I'm going to completely shift to organic, Not only does it take five years before you can even sell organic because you have to like the soil has to be organically farmed long enough to where it's considered that right?

Lissi · 50:15

That's. Right. Yeah. So it's a massive risk. And then it's like, is it even going to work? Forget about like being able to call it or not only just tastes good, but is it literally going to work? It's a huge risk. And we've seen stories of that, of that switch happening after generations literally because they're, they don't want to see people get sick like they saw happen with a family member or themselves.

Lissi · 50:38

Maybe they had a bad personal reaction to to a chemical they were coming in contact with. So, yeah, I mean, it's, it's a real conversation. It's, you know, I know that there's probably going to be people hearing me hearing me say this and, and they're going to just, you know, completely throw it out the window, which which is totally fine.

Lissi · 50:56

Like, I feel like there's a place for everyone at the table when it comes to whether or not you want to consume one tea over the other. Tea. I I can recognize conventional teas for their certain qualities. Is it a tea that I'm going to want to personally consume 1/2 times a day, 20 times a week?

Lissi · 51:17

That's kind of like where my. Yeah, that's a great point. Yeah. So it's, I think it's the, the, it's like with anything in life, right? It's the reducing the things that we have control over and accepting the things we don't. And I'm like, I can't, you know, my neighbors spraying some thing all over his lawn or whatever.

Lissi · 51:38

I can't control that. Or I can't control when I go out in public what I'm exposed to. But I can control for the most part, what, what we consume, what we offer our customers. And I think that's kind of like an important distinction of why we do the work that we do with organics.

Ryan · 51:53

It's it's literally something we can control. Yeah. In terms of what we make available. I can really relate to this whole thing. Sampling tencha and matcha has been quite challenging to me in a sense that I'm super sensitive to some of the fertilizers and pesticides.

Ryan · 52:09

I got like. So sick at one time sampling a batch of tencha. I had like a. Week of fever. He actually like a jet fever. I was totally fine. He like Sam like looked like he had the flu. It was really. Weird. So I mean, yeah.

Lissi · 52:23

And I think, I think that's like something, right? Where it's so dependent on all, we all have this our own unique biology, right? And what literally what might cause you could have twins, right? With the same genetics, right? And one will get cancer and 1 won't get cancer. And they could be exposed to very similar environments. And we don't really understand why, right? So, so yeah.

Lissi · 52:48

And I think it's it's nature. We're nature. And I think like it just goes back to like what what we're passionate about. It's like nature supporting us, us supporting nature. But like I said, the tea has to be delicious. At the end of the day, the tea has to be delicious. No one's going to listen if it's not. And you know it, that makes our position, especially now with this crazy boom, it does make it very challenging. And I will say there's times where like I've I've gotten frustrated in the sense of we're a new kid on the block when it comes to selling matcha.

Lissi · 53:23

I completely understand there are especially even US based companies that have been selling matcha since 2000 and five, 2010, whatever, right, even longer. I think when let's say we're so aligned, let's say with a, with an organic farmer producer and we wish so much that we could buy more of that tea, right? Because our customers value that tea so much. It's such a sliver of the production, like you said, being organic and delicious.

Lissi · 53:54

It hurts sometimes to see, let's say, another brand that doesn't really push or speak to those cultivation qualities. Interesting. Let's say their lineup is 80 to 90% conventional. And then they have they've they're taking from this highly allocated right, like tea.

Lissi · 54:16

It's, it kind of makes us like, I'm like wondering, I'm like, what is the producer or the farmer from their perspective? Like when you look at the brand and you look at like how passionate they are about offering organic, it's kind of this, there's like that little bit of disconnect where and, and then on and on from our viewpoint, I'm like, well, that's kind of frustrating to know.

Lissi · 54:35

Like our community would eat that up with so much passion and joy. But it's kind of just like thrown on here, you know? So that's interesting. Yeah, it's, it's one thing that kind of crossed my mind where I'm like that that is a sticking point, especially now because there's obviously not enough for everybody at the table.

Lissi · 54:54

But it, you know, it is, it is what it is. And I think like sticking to our vision over the next few years is going to is going to pay off as as the industry settles and grows and the consumers habits. I think one of our farmers used, and I use it now, but she said that she's in a state of confusion, which is the translation, right?

Lissi · 55:14

But I think once that state of confusion like levels out, like they're peaceful, calm environments of what they've been doing for generations, hopefully is restored and some degree, I don't think it's ever going to be quite, quite the same. But I think our goal is to to protect that as best we can with.

Lissi · 55:32

Our to not add additional stress, I mean, that's like one of the biggest things that we've like that has come up is that, you know, I mean tea, it's it's a relatively peaceful from the farmer's perspective, right? Like they're in these beautiful environments. It's a very peaceful.

Zach · 55:46

I mean, there's obviously parts of it that are very grueling in the harvesting, in the heat and all of that. But in terms of the lifestyle of what evolves around it, right there is this peaceful component to the work, whether it is hand picking leaves under the shade, the way the light comes in, it's like it's a very meditative, peaceful process.

Zach · 56:07

And to like have this whole thing happening now globally where it's like everyone needs more, more, more, you can understand like. Contradiction. Yeah. Right. So yeah, I mean it's that's what we can do is to to try not to add any additional problems. I, you know, I think is what we're hoping. Yeah, and just represent their work the best we can for sure. Yeah, to the best of our ability, yeah. Them and I always say, especially within like a lot of the new matcha brands that you know, their values aren't what they say in like a mission statement or what they say on the websites in the compromises

Ryan · 56:42

that they make. And like you guys really like like scream through that value like that, like you're sacrificing scale and growth to not add pressure in the system. But also, you know, you're not opening up past like what you're sourcing philosophy is like you're sourcing philosophy hasn't expanded so that you can grow your business and like it.

Zach · 57:03

It's nice to see like people living values like that. It's it's right, man. You appreciate, I mean, and I think that's also why we're looking now to like to stuff like sencha. I mean it's there's so much delicious tea out there that is not matcha, right.

Zach · 57:19

And I think I think we have this opportunity, right, looking at like, let's say, I mean, there's obviously a lot of online brands, but specifically looking at brands like that are US based or have a good US customer base. When we look at loose leaf tea, we think that, you know, there's like we have a voice.

Zach · 57:39

We can have a voice here, like through our filter, through our brand. I think one of the biggest sticking points too is like, people just don't know how to brew it. Like they don't have like maybe the teapot, they don't, they've never done it.

Zach · 57:49

So they're like they've only ever steeped tea bags or whatever. And we have to like go back and like, look at like, how can we like show people drink this for a couple weeks every day? Like pick a time of day that works for you to have a few minutes, drink this tea for two weeks straight every day and see how it affects you.

Zach · 58:06

And I would argue that you're going to really like the effect of it and you're probably going to keep buying it because it's delicious. It makes you feel great. It's the process again, of just doing something for yourself, taking the time to like, brew this tea and like connect with with the person that grew it. It's, it's this rare thing in today's world that I feel like everyone's moving so quickly to be able to have these little moments throughout the day.

Ryan · 58:33

Is it kind of sells itself, right? And it should. It's, it's, it's a very nice process to like take part in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Awesome. Well, I think that's a great note to end on. Thank you so much for coming. Really appreciate your time. To our audience, if you enjoyed this, please consider sharing it with a friend and we'll see you on the next one. Thanks.

Zach · 58:55

In the future guys. Thanks.