Interview with ChaEn Tea Experience, Khun Big

Ryan · 0:05

Hello and welcome to the Specialty Matcha Podcast. My name is Ryan. This is Zongjun Li, who also goes by Sam. Hello. And we're the cofounders of Sanko Matcha Products. Yeah, we launched this podcast to discuss our learning journey, matcha startup stories and interview experts.

Ryan · 0:20

Hello Ryan from the future here. We also have a video version of this interview on YouTube with corrected captions back to the episode. Thanks. And today here again, we're sitting in a beautiful tea house here in Bangkok in this very vibrant neighborhood called Thong Law, with the founder of the tea house Cha and. Mr. Big Yes.

Zongjun · 0:39

Mr. Big Yes. Nickname. Nickname welcome, Welcome to the podcast. Yes. So before we jump into the questions, can you just tell our audience a little bit about, you know, your background and get some information about the Tea House China? OK.

Big · 0:57

And from the Cheyenne Chinese of the tobacco is of the studies of about 13 years ago, 13 years ago. Yes, because I have my farm. Yes, my family have have have the tea farm OK after I'm the graduation so so looks the business OK. Yes he also business my family.

Big · 1:21

And this is the tea farm in northern Thailand, right? Yes, not in Thailand. Like near Chiang Rai? Yeah, Chiang. Rai and before I start I I look to business they David they proceed about warranty. OK, OK. Yes. Warranty yes, but I think so it's about 13 years ago it's a warranty is so difficult to the sale in Thailand OK, yes yeah in Thailand so 13 years ago it's about the population is about tea bottle OK calling the green tea bottle.

Big · 1:51

OK, like the Japanese style rice about. OG. OK, yes. Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, look at that. The trending is sort of green tea, OK. And better good for the good than the Olong tea Gron tea is for the model. And the officer is not nodding the warranty. OK, Yeah, I look, I look in the business, OK, I change a little bit for the process to to make to the Oh yeah. And 13 years going in the Starbucks, we have sold the start start in the menu.

Ryan · 2:27

We have tried a matcha latte and hojicha latte. OK, yes. So there was some market demand. People knew what macho was. Yes, so but if the the 13 years ago is that the Chinese Thailand is have the coffee. OK. Yes, it's a great shift.

Big · 2:42

OK, Yeah, OK. And it looks so so it's tying to the chain to the oolong tea to the matcha. OK, Yeah, OK. The matcha and I have the the players in the small kiosk in the in the market. OK, I started and and they were all the recipe about the matcha latte and clear matcha and clear matcha matcha salabi many recipe.

Ryan · 3:09

OK, yeah, it's just those is subset use and the response for the customer is that so? So OK, not not bad, not bad. And and when was that exactly? Was it like 10 years ago? 13. Years 13. Still. 13 years ago OK? Oh, this was like 20/13/2013.

Big · 3:28

Yeah, yeah. 20/12/2013 Wow, that's a long time. Yeah, Yeah, you're really early. Then no, no green. Tea. OK, yes, you're in the plastic bottles. Yeah, your bottle is really difficult. Yes, I have I I give the brochure is about explain about the matcha, but and because I I have the my friend of my friend of Andy stuff, but she she is up the tea master in Japan. OK.

Ryan · 3:56

Yes, I I consult. With her, OK. Yeah, with her, yes, talking about the the tea and OK, it's matcha from Thailand and matcha from Japan from the starter. I I used the matcha from from my farm Thailand. So interesting. You don't.

Ryan · 4:12

We've heard about it, but we've never met someone who's done it. And we didn't get to taste it until today, which is very special. And what's really special about it is the cultivar that you are growing in Thailand. Yeah, it's, it's a very famous Milky Oolong.

Zongjun · 4:27

Yes, from Taiwan. You feel the Milky and OK, and then the floral, Yeah. Super floral and there's this really interesting like citrus like kind of green line notes coming from the tea. We just tried it as a usucha. It was amazing. It's not like bitter at all, which I had very low expectation based on the color.

Zongjun · 4:48

It's not particularly very green, but it's it's a very interesting taste I've never tried from other teas before. Yeah. And me neither in that expression, like some astringency, but almost no bitterness. But the aromatics, the fragrance, yes, You don't have experienced that in a lot of matcha that's grown conventionally.

Ryan · 5:08

That's really made us, I don't know, see things in a very different way of what's possible. How? How? High is the altitude of the farm. About 300 minutes. 300 million meters, OK, OK, so it's not particularly high. How how about the weather?

Big · 5:24

Is it like super hot or? Oh, this the 30 years ago is about 30 for the high is about. 3030. 35 yes, OK, but but now it's up is. 40 Wow. Global warming is real global warming. Wow. Interesting. And I think it's about in the future is have the from and then it's have the more learning about the technique from the Japan.

Ryan · 5:57

I think it's of the matcha is better than now and the plus, yeah. In the north, up in Chiang Rai, for the farmers that are making matcha, other than Jinchuan cultivar, are there other cultivars that people are using to make matcha like products That's.

Big · 6:15

What I said, I think it's some farm itself and use the assamica. Assamica. Yes, but but the assamica is a very strong. I'm sure. Yeah, very bitter. But but the assamica is not OK but but not bad. OK, OK, that is not bad, but but this have from the zairai is better than the assamica assamica. I've heard there's some joint ventures too with some Japanese companies and some very large Thai companies like Singha that are doing some work in Chiang Rai. But I I think you mentioned that from Japanese cultivars that they brought in or.

Ryan · 6:52

The first the first set I think is about use the tin but but OK, yes, but and three or four years for is they developed breeding or the OR the mix with the Yabukita or the. So they're making special cultivars for Chiang Rai with some DNA from Japanese, Yes. They're breeding with.

Big · 7:17

Scene progression but but these have the government. The government. The part of the, I'm not sure is part of the agriculture. Yes, in the in the institute. Institute order. Yeah, some farming. Interesting in Xi'an and from the sencha and Uji from Japan, the cross. Beaten with with other cause of us from. Different.

Ryan · 7:41

I think it's a fight in the future if five years or the 10 years have. Very interesting, very interesting. The groundwork is being laid now, so maybe in five to 10 years when they find the right cultivars for that region, for that climate, then a real specialty matcha that's actually really Thai, like Thai cultivars bred in Thailand, optimized for that soil, that climate.

Big · 8:05

Yes, but I'm not sure they want to make the matcha or the green tea or grown tea or the tea. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, in the I. Think it's can make the matcha so interesting. Very interesting, I was wondering what's the back story of bringing Jinxuan into Thailand? Like why Jinxuan?

Big · 8:28

Jinxuan is because it's the another farm is about 50 years old, the king, the king have the King of Thailand in north of Thailand have many, many people and make the farm and the corporation from the Taiwan.

Ryan · 8:54

Oh. Bring the seeds from Taiwan to the. So it was an early cooperation with Taiwan? Yes, to bring the seeds. Oh, interesting. And it was 15 years or 50 years ago? 50 years ago. Wow, that's a long time ago. The seed was planted early.

Big · 9:13

That's really because the opium yes, chain chain from the oh that the king have have the the chain to the yeah, it's out of the the last just 3050 or 60 years going some mini mini opium. I heard about that. They want to get rid of opium and then they bring in tea to like for the local farmers to make a living.

Big · 9:40

Very interesting. Yeah, I heard about that. Wow. That's. And you guys were working with the Taiwanese too? Yes, yes, yes. And Jinxuan, and it's called sometimes it's about Internet. The history I think is about bringing from the Taiwan is about 15. 15 different cultivars. Yes, but it's good.

Zongjun · 10:05

It's OK from the vector in Thailand and it's very interesting and 4000 OK. Very interesting, like so many histories, stories going back. So, so you, you start to make matcha like back in 13 years ago. How have you seen people's opinions and preference change?

Big · 10:27

When did you see the shift? Because in the beginning, like, people were not, you know, thinking this is particularly delicious. And the first thing is that the opinion of creamy and bitter, but the matcha is a Asian, you can see it more than coffee. Example is about 13 years ago is the coffee. Coffee is A1 copy server very cheap, but I sell the matcha latte is about 40.

Big · 10:57

OK, Yeah, it's compared if you go to the Y2. Why? To drink the matcha, but the coffee is cheap. Yeah, coffee. Is. Cheaper it's so difficult, but I take more the information about the benefits of the something for the matcha OK yes OK and I import the machine from the cleaning machine from the Japan for the.

Big · 11:24

Grinding machine from Japan. Yes, and for the because the recent from the different from the taste of the tea because because use use the machine from the China is leading is about I think it's about finally is not OK, OK, OK, but it's for the you need from the Japan is. Very fine.

Zongjun · 11:43

Very. Fine. Yeah, Yeah, we experienced that too. It was really fine. They know it's even better than a lot of matcha that we've tasted recently from Japan. That's all milled or or surrounding mills. It's yours was like silky smooth, no side of occasion and then something else. It was really interesting that I've never seen someone do intentionally was blend have a multi country blend of matcha, which is actually what I'm drinking now is this mixture of Thai Chiang Rai grown Jinxuan matcha mixed with the Yabukita from Yame.

Zongjun · 12:17

And it's they just complement each other perfectly because you have like the fragrance of the Thai cultivar of the Jinxuan grown in Thailand with the umami and green and sort of the the natural sweetness of the Yame 1 and together they work so well.

Zongjun · 12:33

What inspired you to do a multi country? But I'm sure they exist in Japan, but maybe they don't label it being like a mix of Chinese and Japanese. But but like seeing this intentionally done to craft something delicious is the first time I've ever seen it from all everyone that we've ever talked to in the industry.

Big · 12:51

So how did this happen? Because this is like, really interesting. From the different from the another traffic yes I have the look at my farm and import from the Japan yeah yeah, it means it's from the OK this highlight menu and youth and some people is about open open my mind yeah this from the matcha from Chiang Rai yeah and bend it because because some people don't OK from the.

Zongjun · 13:22

Yeah, but it's a stigma maybe. Yes, but you open the minds of a when you feel that it's different, but it's the perfect. But what is the for all model? Fragrance. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's different from the. Yeah, you're really like pooling things and highlighting the strengths of both teas, because even Yabukita I find is a little bit not interesting sometimes. But with this fragrance layered on top and this floral Ness, it's really like a blend that I've never tasted like anything like that coming from a Japanese product. Yeah, it's really 1 + 1 = 3 larger than two. You know, like the the vegetal

Zongjun · 14:06

notes totally disappear from the Yabukita and the citrus notes from the Chiang Rai matcha remains. And that's wow delicious. Because the Yabukita is I think it's about Yabukita is test of the number of it's test. Yeah, it's about if you I could I if I select the okumidori, I think it's from it's it's not the come come back with the yeah, it's Yabukita is is OK. Did you try any other cultivars?

Big · 14:40

And yeah yes, which ones work and which ones don't? And why I? Think so is have the I see the Yabukita is because the the mainly Yabukita is tense of a model umami, umami, creamy business and assistance aromas really balanced. OK, yes, really balanced, but it's after if I select a summit or is about more umami and sometimes I put the jinsu and I think it's so that not balanced.

Zongjun · 15:13

OK, Yeah. Not balanced. What about for very umami cultivars like maybe Uji Hikari or Asahi? Do you think it would be clashing or do you think it would be balanced? Yeah, it's clashing. OK. And sometime it's about OK it's about use, use the Gokou you can use that. The high quality is is I think it's not not suitable to the mixed with the OK.

Zongjun · 15:41

So the single this is better. OK, it's not 1 + 1 = 3. Interesting. Wow, it's such a, it's such an amazing idea and very it's, it really opened my mind to some possibilities. I think for other people, especially in other countries, to do some things that just don't exist in traditional Japanese matcha and they can layer on their own value, their own creativity.

Big · 16:06

Just because the idea from the coffee is Brazil and Thailand or the Guatemala they can bring from everywhere. Yes, it's why the matcha. And I mean, historically has been a blend as well. And wow, it's so interesting.

Zongjun · 16:26

And not only blending matcha from different regions, different countries, but also crossbreeding like plants from different countries. Like I'm sure like people in probably China, Japan are doing it too. But like, this is the first time I'm actually hearing from a industry expert that talks about this reality.

Zongjun · 16:44

And this is very inspiring. This is very inspiring, very cool. Wow. Really looking forward to taste a matcha made from like a Jin Xuan cultivar with a Yabukita or like Okumidori in the future and growing in Thailand in this very unique terroir.

Zongjun · 17:01

Talk about a global story, a Japanese cultivar with the Taiwanese mixed specifically, but mixed in north of Thailand and then grown there and then maybe mixed back with other Japanese tea to create a more balanced blend that's.

Zongjun · 17:15

Great. Forged and create by the locals, for the locals. Yeah, it's really, truly a local product in a sense that's really wonderful. This is an unexpected story. We weren't, we had no expectations. But that's very exciting because we've been talking a lot about this on the podcast and how there needs to be more local adaptation.

Zongjun · 17:34

And maybe the really high quality matcha in Japan is not what someone wants or likes in California or in Mexico City or in Brazil. But the people who are in those places know their consumers really well, and then they can blend and do this new flavor creation that will specifically meet those preferences that maybe Japanese people cannot understand. Create a.

Ryan · 17:57

Fusion menu form of matcha OK matcha de honey lamb honey lamb honey there matcha honey honey lemon. Honey lemon, Honey lemon. Yeah, and Matcha lemon soda. OK. And we can't have a matcha harder sweet sweet potato. Oh, sweet potato.

Ryan · 18:17

Milk and sweet potato and matcha. Milk and mint. Mint. We've heard some crazy combinations and we even heard this cafe here who has a soy sauce matcha lattes, Matcha sauce, Yeah. Yeah, in the tunnel gauge, right, because we have the soy sauce have. I could see that working.

Zongjun · 18:38

We haven't tried it yet, but we we plan to this afternoon. Before, did you have any experience in like like the bubble tea industry or the milk tea industry, or did you take any inspiration from that? And and the black tea and black tea yes, but but special is about matcha.

Big · 18:56

OK, yes, yes, the main the menu is at the OK for the and the black tea and milk tea. So the matcha is not the matcha only. OK, Yeah, it's the tea only. OK, so it was a tea tea shop basically. Yeah, OK. But but the the people, the customer is mostly matcha. OK, So it was a customer choice that you steer more into matcha. Yes.

Zongjun · 19:23

Interesting. How have you seen the matcha scene evolve in Thailand? Because now like the evolution, Because now like you see everywhere, every cafe has cultivars, Everyone tells you the region that it's grown from, it's from Fukuoka, Yame, it's from Uji, or even more specific like Wazuka or Ujitawara, Joyo Town.

Ryan · 19:48

You don't see this in other countries or other places. We haven't at least that level of sophistication. Maybe if you're in in in Paris, the conversation is that the matcha ceremonial grade, but that's it. They don't give you any other details, but here it's really transparent. If you were to open a new matcha brand tomorrow, I think in Thailand you would fail if you didn't label the origin such as Uji, Yame, Kagoshima, Shizuoka. And I think you would fail if you didn't have cultivar saying this is Okumidori, this is Yabukita Asahi Uji Hikari, because every cafe in Thailand gives this information. So if you were to just to say

Ryan · 20:36

it's premium matcha and that's it and nothing else ceremonial. Grade. I think every Thai consumer wouldn't trust you, right? How did that happen? Because if you go to anywhere else in the world, consumers don't care and ask about origin or cultivar.

Ryan · 20:53

But here it's a standard. And maybe 10 years ago no one cared, but now everyone cares. And that's very unusual because even in Japan, no one cares about that information. How did that happen in Thailand? Or like, when did that happen?

Big · 21:08

Like when did you start seeing consumers coming in and ask you like, what's the cultivar? Where is this from So. Fairly recently actually, yes, yes, because of sample the after the COVID and before the COVID. No, no. The question about it how you want COVID came from the UJI, OK. OK, Uji, matcha is fine.

Big · 21:36

Yes, no, yeah, I mean yes, after the after the COVID this had thought about the modern information and the people is have that deal with the building the home, yes, it can cannot go to the cafe. It's back from some place, some cafes of trying and talking about, talking about the information. So it's like a sale strategy.

Ryan · 22:03

So all of the matcha companies in Thailand during COVID used education to sell matcha and to enrich the experience at home. Consumer got curious I guess because they have nothing. To do yeah, they have more time, maybe, yeah.

Big · 22:18

But they want to know about the information they want to know is what is a three-year? Is this from, from from where? From the. Which cultivar? Yeah, from but but is so so is outside of COVID. OK, OK. Yes, and the more more the information yeah, from this, from this where exactly?

Big · 22:42

Yes. And I think I think have and customer have more time for the searching about the searching and the OK and the amount customer is have a kind of compare compared to has more time for the complete. Interesting you kind of see this happen elsewhere too, Like in the states people got into like home baking a brioche, doing all sorts of like yeast, you know, fostering themselves.

Ryan · 23:09

I guess in Thailand people got into matcha to kill time during COVID. Wow, so interesting. You see this a little bit in the States where the single cultivar idea for matcha over COVID, yeah, you saw all sorts of new brands that focus on this like a week like cattle started focusing more on this Rocky's Matcha all around this COVID era. Because because things have sort of the coffee beans have got single the already in the so the much high industry installed. OK, is that the information for the the more choice for the consumer.

Ryan · 23:43

The single cultivar is had a more choice and can and company importer is kind of select from the farm factory. Interesting. They always have a they sell the the brand only, not the single party 1. Interesting. So in in other countries you often see a hybrid between like specialty coffee and matcha.

Ryan · 24:12

It's actually usually a specialty coffee shop and then they just happens to sell matcha as a portfolio. So in Bangkok, do you also see that being the case like people in coffee, like they do single cultivar of a coffee and then they start doing matcha too? Or do you see people just focus on tea like you, like you were doing tea all the time since the beginning? Do you see that being more of the case? Or do you see that, you know, like people doing coffee and matcha together?

Big · 24:42

I think so. It's a specialist tea is OK because the coffees are so. So if you cook in the in the cafe for the specialty coffees, after the smell of the coffee, more modest meal, but but if you you sell the matcha, you're not, you cannot smell the. You cannot smell the matcha, yes. You can smell the only Yeah, the smell of the coffee is really strong, but the tea is soft.

Ryan · 25:15

Do you, do you see like coffee people move into matcha in Thailand? Because the recent is some people use the six. Acid reflux yeah, yeah, yeah too acidic the. Women who stop higher than the men. OK, Yeah, it's very similar to the rest of the world. Do you see like people from the coffee industry, like people making coffee, like start switching to making matcha? Do you see that like, like coffee shops, like becoming matcha shops?

Big · 25:49

They do matcha in Thailand. Yes, some special coffee yes, they they could open the special key on the special because because it's OK in the market, it's have to have the opportunity. Yeah, yeah, the market but but I think so it's now situation is happen.

Big · 26:10

It's so difficult because the people is have just it's 100. It's now just 100 people for the assembles for that and not more. The people find it in the Saturday is after just just just mm hmm, you understand that's the moment.

Ryan · 26:32

There are not enough markets. The market is getting saturated, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's yeah. The the cake. Yeah, and the cake. Yeah, it's full. Yeah. Yeah, I think. It's only so big. Yeah, everyone is coming in to take a slice.

Big · 26:46

Yes, yes, yes. Always have a mini I can move move to the yes, select the cake. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Only so yeah, hopefully we can grow the cake together. Yeah, I think so. I think so is yeah because but it's not now next year is have the a little bit going. Boom.

Zongjun · 27:09

Not a explosion. But it's still very interesting though, because it's, you know, from our own observation too, like people don't really do hybrid in Bangkok. Like a coffee plus matcha in one location in one shop. It's really like, really separate.

Big · 27:26

Because, because because I think so is that the customer is ever understand and if they if they want to drink the matcha they go to the. They go to a matcha shop. They want coffee. They go to a coffee. Shop, yes, but it's OK. You go to my friend.

Ryan · 27:42

Yeah, my friend. You want to drink coffee but but you have you want to drink the matcha the coffee shop we got. They have to have that option. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, I think, yeah, I think the coffee shop is a option for the matcha. Yeah, not the specialty of the matcha. Yeah, because it's it's what Sam was saying. It's interesting because in the States, I wonder because like in New York, for example, New York has had coffee shops on every corner for, I don't know, more than 50 years. And it's a very well established like local institutions, all of these coffee shops.

Ryan · 28:15

But I wonder if like just Thailand didn't have as many coffee shops and there was this huge demand for matcha that it can support a matcha only tea house. It's here, it's a huge mix of tea house and cafes. And maybe they just there weren't as many cafes to start.

Ryan · 28:34

So as all of the demand for specialty coffee and specialty matcha has grown, they can have their own shops. And what's interesting is within tea houses, like you get an insane level of transparency. Like you don't get this in a coffee shop with all of this detail, but the matcha cafes can do it because maybe that coffee, it's just too much for a coffee shop to do that. You have to learn experts in coffee and in matcha. But the tea houses, it's their specialty. It's.

Big · 29:01

But but I think it's absolutely it's the more the moist to learning, learning from the matcha from me and consult me from the and yes, another probin's detail. OK, you can open the matcha shop, but you have the model option of the coffee. It's a special coffee.

Ryan · 29:28

OK. Yes, you, you. You have an option on the Americano on. It's a simple, basic case. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We found some some case in the London, London, Bangkok. So it's a matcha shop that offers just a little bit of coffee. Yes, it's it's the opposite in the place like New York, you have all these options for coffee and you have simple basic matcha latte and that's it.

Big · 29:51

Just one it's the. About a table turn. Because the the now you have the you open the coffee shops, you have more than one. Because of all the equipment costs, The machines, yes, much more expensive. Much more expensive. So it's the special coffee you can you have the owner, the coffee shop have have the more than money, OK, and open the coffee shop, but it's have the coffee copies have that choice. Yeah, yeah, the option of the matcha. They are the clear matcha.

Ryan · 30:28

Interesting, I wonder if money like the cost of opening a shop is part of the driving cost. Cuz you can probably open 2 matcha shop with the money that you can open only one coffee shop and people like for you know for this reason tend to open more matcha yes versus coffee.

Ryan · 30:47

Yes, yes, because the everyone one to the owner, the business no matcha shop is not more than one. Interesting. How is the matcha shortage affected? The matcha scene in Thailand is, from what we understand, it's much easier to import tea to Thailand. Like basically anything that you can that's allowed in Japan is allowed in Thailand.

Ryan · 31:10

But have have you experienced a big matcha shortage or have you noticed that the whole industry is suffering? Because we hear a lot from people in other countries, especially in Europe, in the United States, the matcha shortage, they just can't get product or if they can, it's less and maybe it comes a few months late, but from supply, have you noticed how, how big of a problem has that been in 2024 for you and 2025 getting supply, like stable supply, yeah.

Big · 31:43

For my my companies K8 talking about the supplier and find more for the find more the supplier. OK, so you did need to find more. Yes, but but some, some, some suppliers off the end of the off so. Out of stock, OK. But but because I I and under reserve it. Yeah, but the the the old the supplier I can contact first. I can have before I can I can I can leave this. So you can reserve reserve.

Big · 32:14

OK supplier. Yes, supplier and the old supplier, the Japan is have the OK. It's have you, you're the old, you're the old customer. Yes, yeah. And people have been doing it here for so long, they get priority. And the problem I think is have so the about the the OK and the the team is on the famous brand. Yes, because because the Thailand and Japan is not far five hours from the airplane OK is some some people's call game, go to the Japan and buy all.

Ryan · 32:51

We've heard, yeah, a whole suitcase full of Hoshino sencha or Marukyu Koyamaen. Yeah, yeah. And is the problem, but I think so. The cafe is done. Don't use the the thing can order except for in my modern mouth. Yeah, Yeah. I think it's about.

Big · 33:17

Many kilos. Hundreds of kilos, I'm sure. Problem is not a big problem. OK, but but the big problem is that and from the the thing and from the famous band. So the whole band is stuff the so so it's but but it's up. I buy OK, it's I buy from the shopper 1100K yes, the order is about 150 OK. I mean it to the OK, this old customer or the new customer, you can limit yeah and limit to the. OK.

Big · 33:55

Yeah, this purchase limits, Yeah, we hear that all the all the time. It's really hard to grow for a lot of new matcha companies because they can't find much of those purchasing history or very short purchase history. Yes, I think it's it's it's the the problem is it's short because because many, many people use up other the other the business. Yes, it's some some people is have business. It's not not AT business.

Ryan · 34:24

It's come to the. To make money quickly. To make one need, yes. Do you see there's if you talk to a lot of people in Japan, they say I'm tired, I want this matcha boom to go away. And I hope that I guess, I guess if another way of phrasing it is I hope people drink less matcha is what we hear in Japan. Like when is it going to be more quiet? When is the demand for matcha going to go down? But in Thailand, do you think that the amount of matcha that people are drinking is going to increase or decrease with time? Because I think it's only going to keep growing because people love it and it's part of their

Big · 35:05

life now. But do you see the demand for matcha in Thailand going down ever? Or do you think it's just going to keep growing? I think it's now is going down. It is going down now. Yes, now because the price higher. Too high. Yes, too, higher than the quality. OK.

Big · 35:23

So the price increases are so much that the quality doesn't deliver. Yes, and then they're disappointed and then they won't buy as much. So and customers, some customers is too high OK in the matcha. OK, do they switch back to coffee or do they just stop drinking? The order, yeah it's 100 bucks for a cup, but but in the matcha sometimes it's 200 bucks per cup. Yeah, yeah, it's more expensive.

Big · 35:52

But but because my and cafe is up for the yeah, I have some supply early stuff. I'm really yeah, OK, so listen to to the sale the the the high parts, because the from the Japan is have a sale the the bowl and the tip bowl.

Ryan · 36:09

Well, maybe Qinghai matcha will catch up one day. Yeah, Yeah, I think so. I I think it needs to like all these other regions outside of Japan. You know, it's really the foundation of a stable matcha consumption market in the future because like, if the price is just going to ever go up for Japanese matcha, people are going to move away. Like they're going to move away to like milk tea and all kinds of other, you know, alternatives. The everyone talks about the victims of the matcha boom being the tea farmers.

Ryan · 36:41

Never. They have 50 people asking to buy their product. I, I don't see how that can be a victim as much as people in places like Thailand who, you know, it's, if you look at the average purchasing power of a consumer in Thailand, right? They're very limited and even, you know, 150 bodies, 4 or $5, it's that's expensive even in like and other places. And I think this is the real victim because there's this culture of drinking matcha here.

Ryan · 37:10

It's very new. It's a baby culture, but it has so much potential. And now the prices are getting so high that people literally cannot afford it. And it's the people who have the least money that are now cannot access this culture. And now it becomes an elite culture of just the people who can afford it.

Ryan · 37:29

And I think that's very sad. And I think it's really, I think like places like Northern Thailand, China, Taiwan, Korea, they can increase the supply, make new, incredibly new and interesting flavors to make it cheaper so that we, this doesn't turn into an elite culture so that it's something accessible.

Ryan · 37:50

Like the victims of this matcha boom are silent. They're the people that say, I can't afford a matcha today. And then the next day, I can't afford a matcha today. And then they move away. This is the real victim of, of this movement. It's, it's not the people who have so much demand for their products.

Ryan · 38:08

It's also the small businesses, all of these new Matcha businesses in Thailand and in other countries, they don't have product to sell or they, they have to spend 2 times the amount on matcha that they buy. And they said they have to raise the price for customers. And then their customers are disappointed in them because it's double the price and maybe it's a worse quality than it was last year.

Ryan · 38:31

So small businesses that suffer and consumers that suffer. Yes, yes, really really suffer again for the start for the shincha this year. Yeah, from the the high price, but the quality is. Yeah, Mix. I've heard it's very good at the best places like Gokasho.

Big · 38:54

Like apparently Uji has very high quality, but a lot of the other tea we've tasted is it's some of it. Yeah, just OK. Yeah, it's the high price, but but quality is is high just yeah, just OK. Yeah, yeah. And the customer is 10 and OK if the quality is they will understand, Yeah, yeah, they will understand. But now it's the quality is not OK, but but the high price. So it's so OK for some ways movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ryan · 39:22

It's really a shame. It makes me very sad. I, I really hope that the stigma for Chinese matcha, for Thai matcha, for Korean matcha can be lifted and we see more innovation like this where we can even mix with Japanese to create new things. Because, you know, Japan doesn't just have exclusively good tea either.

Ryan · 39:40

Like there's a lot, a lot of very in the middle mediocre matcha that's produced in Japan that might taste fantastic when mixed with something more fragrant, for example. So it's more value can be added onto the system. It's, which is what you're doing here and it's, it's very inspiring. And I understand from the tea farm from the Kyoto. The other is yeah.

Big · 40:01

And they tell me he's with good quality. OK, He's with. OK, I bet because it's I. They they don't really serve a grinding quickly. Yes, the grinding bottlenecks. We heard there's an ishi-usu shortage too. Not enough. Next month or two, two months of from the cookie auto is is coming from the shincha and the food quality.

Ryan · 40:26

Very nice, yeah. Has time to rest too. Yes, yes. Yeah. It's in the. It's in the place, Yeah. I'm sure still compared to all the tea growing regions in the world, Kyoto or even Japan, it's a small place. There will be a matcha culture that's outside of Japan or another Yame that's outside in the future.

Big · 40:48

And we believe that's happening and it should happen. It must happen. Otherwise this whole thing will go the way it will vanish and into a niche cultural luxury once again. And we don't want to see that future happen. Yes, so it's why the shop is the experience, not the experience because it's the sometime is the matcha is going down, matcha is going the main the main product is I can change yeah and. It's more flexible, yeah.

Ryan · 41:25

It can be flexible because sometimes people always have a It don't need a beauty on. I want to think the red tea on the oolong tea. Yes, I have the option. We've been, we've been seeing matcha as a gateway to loose leaf tea because everyone's worried that sencha is in decline, gyokuro is in decline. Even leaf tea consumption I've we've heard in places like Taiwan and mainland China is declining because young people don't want to do gongfu cha and people don't want to do use a kyusu.

Ryan · 41:58

But now that people are interested in matcha, it might be a gateway to get them interested into other teas too. It's AI think it's very needed, especially as all tea consumption is kind of on the decline from a traditional style. So it's that that's promising too because I know a lot of our listeners are really concerned about there being no market for gyokuro, no market for sencha or for any of these other loose leaf tea.

Big · 42:22

So it's a cool concept because sometimes 1 can be a bridge to the other because. I think so the news come to the tea industry OK, the first but bring the is so easy and take a picture is so beautiful. Yeah, it's a green color for the share in the social. Yeah.

Big · 42:42

Yeah, but I think so the newcomer is of doing more, doing more than matcha, I think so. Sometimes boring. Yeah, boring is chained to the. Yeah, it's a more dynamic new flavors. Flavors, yeah, because of many, many options. Vietnam, yeah.

Zongjun · 43:02

Option, Yeah, In the India, yes, it's really many, many options. Have you tried to powderize or make powder with other teas other than tencha or green tea? Like have you tried using oolong or black tea to make powder with your grinder?

Big · 43:22

It's soda it. Is fine. It's not. OK Oh, fineness is not OK. We have the stem, strongest stem. These are the yeah oolong teas. The powder. OK OK, OK, maybe you D stand the tea in my grind into Finder pads is the. Similarity.

Big · 43:44

Yeah, similarity Powder itself. The finite is social I think so it says why the the history the people in history not not to the grinding the oolong tea or grinding the red tea some recent. Finance is the problem. Yes, it's finance problem. Interesting.

Zongjun · 44:07

But but the future is have the machine. Yeah. Given the machine available, yeah, people cannot grind that into YEAH. So I think a good last question is what changes which you like to see in the matcha industry in the next 5 years?

Big · 44:21

What would you like to see change? One or two years turning back to the price. Sales price, yeah. Yes and people is have the during being matcha everyday it's ever OK, it's the thing, but I assume myself understand about the matcha it's the standard still in the matcha so. Consumer who likes or understand matcha still remains in the matcha.

Big · 44:52

Yes, so that people don't leave the industry, people don't leave their their habits. Yes, because, because the this year is about is 20. Yeah, Yeah. It's the trending. Yeah. So you don't want it to be a trend, you want to see it like.

Big · 45:07

OK. And the last year is up, Yeah, yes, but I think so two or three years of us going down in the stable. OK, same the coffee. Same with. Specialty coffee yes same because the five or six years specialty specialty coffee is about where it's going and now it's OK it's stable yeah looking so stay because in the tea during recently half the circle the circle is about in in Thailand half half the circle is about 10 years ago is have Thai tea is on milk tea bubble tea is popular OK and five years ago is bubble tea again OK yes and same the matcha yes 5 five or six year ago itself the matcha in in Thailand itself OK yes but OK this five yeah circle yeah it's

Zongjun · 46:03

the last so. Every drink category has a almost a five year circle. Like they take turns and then they have their own boom, 5 to 10 years. We don't quite see that yet in other countries for from matcha. Yeah, just cross. Yeah.

Ryan · 46:22

But I think that tiny market is more mature for Matcha because it's been so sophisticated or at least the last three years since I've been coming here for matcha. It just is so mature from a knowledge perspective and what people are asking for and it's. It also happened so fast.

Zongjun · 46:43

Three years. Three years is not a long time. Yes, yeah. Not a long. Yeah, that's, that's crazy. We probably will see that happening in other countries. There is. Yeah. Yeah, we hope that everyone takes inspiration from Thailand and the way that matcha knowledge is communicated to the consumer. In Thailand, it's about different from the Another country pasta, the recipe and the fusion menu. Yeah.

Ryan · 47:09

You see a lot of innovation there, yeah. Yeah, yeah. OK. It's the published Yeah, another country is some basic matcha latte. It's about matcha with the water and top on the milk. Yeah yes, but matcha here have no water. Yeah, cold whisk. This cold whisking thing is really interesting. I hope that that spreads, because when you have no dilution from any water and you're doing a cold extraction with the matcha with milk, tastes totally different. It's really good.

Zongjun · 47:39

It's good. Sometimes it's called it masala days I style. Great innovation, especially in an iced beverage. It really works. Thai latte but with matcha. Yeah, 90%. So still a very high percentage, yes. Yeah. But I think this cold whisking style makes you taste the cultivar better.

Ryan · 48:00

Like you can really taste the difference between like a very umami cultivar like Asahi from Wazuka cold whisk and like a yabukita. Like they really magnify the differences. Let's dilute it. You can taste the tea. Much more on the blend of.

Zongjun · 48:21

That too. Yeah, I could see that. Well, that's all very interesting. Thank you for sharing all these information. Yeah. Thank you. So thank you so much for your time. It's great to meet you. Yeah, it's, yeah, it's and thank you for all the tea. It's been very tasty, very, very mind opening too. Yeah, inspiring honestly, There will be I guess very interesting future waiting ahead of us that we are probably no one is expecting.

Big · 48:46

Yeah, all these new cultivars in Northern Thailand, we just need to wait a few more years and I mean those when innovations we'll see, but this time for a Thai matcha. But but I think so this of the next year is. We've had a couple. It's very interesting.

Ryan · 49:02

The color is not perfect, but the taste is interesting. It's good, very different. Yeah, yeah, a lot of lemon and like yellow lemon notes. A lot of almonds too. You're seeing the quality of Chinese matcha getting better slowly. Used to be like really bad everywhere, but now you are slowly seeing once a while a cup of matcha from China that was surprised.

Big · 49:26

And I think that's, that's, that's, that's a future much needed for everybody. Yeah. Much more resilient. And really happy to see, you know, like Thailand and Korea and Taiwan drawing this, this whole community of Masha product.

Zongjun · 49:39

I think that's a very exciting future to see. Well, thank you so much. We really appreciate it and thank you to our audience. If you enjoyed this, please consider sharing with the front. If you're ever in Bangkok, you should absolutely check out China and we'll see you on the next one. Thanks so much.

Zongjun · 49:56

See you in the future. And see you in the future. Thank you.