Authenticity Trap, Opinion

Ryan · 0:00

Hello and welcome to the Specialty Matcha Podcast. My name is Ryan. This is my cohost Zongjun. Hello. Hello. Who also goes by Sam and we're the co-founders of Sanko Matcha products. Yeah, we launched this podcast to discuss our learning journey, Matcha, share startup stories and interview experts. And today Ryan and I are going to have a conversation on the topic, The Trap of Authenticity.

Ryan · 0:25

Yes, the authenticity trap, which we feel quite strongly about because authenticity is such a prevalent word. I mean, you know, it can come in various forms from traditional heritage. Authentic words like this get thrown around in tea marketing all the time and there are many different problems by classifying practices, tea brands, drinks, beverages, taste in this manner.

Zongjun · 0:52

And we wanted to break down some of the problem areas that we see with the use of such words. And we certainly don't want to be the police of which of your words you should use and not. But I think it is beyond semantics.

Ryan · 1:05

I think the choice of words really can have a primary outcome that is really negative and has some really bad negative externalities or even secondary or tertiary. And we wanted to work through some of these. And this episode in a lot of ways is Part 2 of what we recorded. What is authentic matcha, an opinion piece. And so if you haven't listened to that, you can listen to that for more context.

Ryan · 1:27

But one of the problems with the word authentic is it can mean entirely different things to different people in different contexts. You could have someone at very basic level be telling a friend like, hey, this cafe around the corner, they're using a Chasen and a real tea bowl.

Ryan · 1:45

They're whisking matcha authentically. They have preparing it properly. It could be that this very basic definition. And on the other hand, you could have an Urasenke practitioner correct another beginning student saying that the direction that you turned your bowl before you were about to consume it was wrong.

Ryan · 2:06

That's not the authentic way that we do it. In the Urasenke tradition. You know, we do a clockwise versus counterclockwise, or it's a traditional difference between Urasenke and Omotesenke, for example. So in that context, it means something incredibly specific.

Zongjun · 2:21

So when that word gets thrown around, it can have very different meanings or different contexts. And what is authentic is is so broad and can be misinterpreted so easily that it could be used to police other people. Yeah, it's, it's problematic because you know, the word authenticity doesn't just exist in the word of tea, it exist in very wide range of other contexts, which makes it super powerful because people didn't necessarily just learn it from tea, they learned it from everywhere, like from culinary, from literature, from art, from all sorts of contexts.

Zongjun · 3:06

That's why this makes the word authenticity extremely powerful, and it makes the inertia of people arguing with the accusations of not being authentic so hard, so difficult. Yeah, it's quite shameful, someone saying that you're not doing something authentically. It carries.

Ryan · 3:30

They're basically saying you're doing it wrong in whatsoever context that they think it's right. No, it's, it's terrible and it has the weight of everything behind it and all the cultural connotations. To do something inauthentic in the world of matcha, in the world of tea ceremony or tea preparation, is to defile Japan itself because tea is so linked to that culture.

Zongjun · 3:56

So it it, it's such a heavy use term and a commonly used term in a negative way that I think make some people feel like they have the license to critique others practice. It's easy to call something inauthentic. And it's very. Unfair standard.

Zongjun · 4:14

Yeah, essentially, right. Like you are not calling someone out because you think it's wrong. You are essentially calling someone out because you are. You think that the people or the culture they're representing, the very context that you are doing, think you are doing it wrong. That's the implication of you are not doing it authentically. You're speaking for other people or on behalf of something. That's.

Ryan · 4:42

Something larger than yourself. Yeah, that's why the weight is so strong. And who gave you the authority to talk and police based on Japanese? And you frequently don't hear it from Japanese people going around accusing, you know, some Western cafe that really specializes in coffee of whisking matcha unauthentically.

Ryan · 5:05

It's too easily used as this weapon of shame. I think, you know, for some percentage of people, it probably prevents them from doing certain things. And I'll use a really kind of ridiculous example. In the United States, there was a quote UN quote innovation that uramaki on sushi combining raw salmon with Philadelphia cream cheese. They call it a Philadelphia roll. And let's say that that's your favorite maki. It's your favorite role.

Ryan · 5:34

You grew up in the States. You happened, this happened to be your first exposure to sushi. You grew up with it. You know, it's not authentic. And you're with your snobby friends and you might apologize and say like, you know, you go out for lunch and you say, I'm ordering the maki role.

Ryan · 5:49

I know it's not authentic, but I like it anyway. This is these are flavors I grew up with. This is a product that I like and it's an indulgence for me. But they feel shame in that answer, and I think we can all relate to that, maybe not in that particular example, but in other facets of our matcha journey and the way we do things or the way we approach other things as well.

Zongjun · 6:12

And it's a fear of shame. So people using authenticity as this weapon, going around dictating to other people how another group of people that's larger than themselves would be judging whatever it is that they're doing, it's they're casting some sort of judgment, which is a horrible trap that is really just unproductive. Like, what's your goal in saying that? Frequently the judgment is illusional. You're not actually being judged, but it's the fear of being judged or the illusion of thinking someone judging you or assessing your behavior that's not complying with the norm. I think that's that's the

Ryan · 6:53

difficulty we're facing here. And that's the silent harm, right? It's the harm of inaction. What are tea ceremony practitioners, matcha lovers, cafe owners out there not doing because of fear of shame or being called inauthentic? Yeah.

Zongjun · 7:12

But on the other hand, Ryan, people who are I guess vulnerable to be trapped in this authenticity trap are usually people that actually respect culture and has the intention to learn about another culture. And I think, you know, like for for people that doesn't really care, they probably really don't care, hence they won't be trapped.

Ryan · 7:36

And I think this is particularly hard because the very reason that people are getting trapped in the 1st place is because a continuation of the culture for practice. People frequently tend to want to stay relevant, right?

Zongjun · 7:52

Innovation is not something that is done out of the blue and to really, you know, free yourself from the mindset of, you know, being trapped or being entangled or being hindered by a tradition or by something that's, you know, of some sort of authenticity practice. I think it's very hard.

Zongjun · 8:16

How do you balance that? How do you balance innovation versus, you know, creating something just basically entirely new, the names of something that have already exist? Yeah, I think in the world of matcha and Japanese tea, there is a horrible contradiction.

Ryan · 8:37

And the contradiction is this is that it's actually very easy to stay on an authentic path and have deep understanding of it because it's an institutionalized tradition. The Japanese tea ceremony in the practice of preparing tea and a lot of the surrounding elements are controlled by schools, by institutions, or iemoto, among many, many others.

Ryan · 8:58

And they can literally define what is and is not authentic or traditional or representative of their practice. And changes are dictated from the top to top down tradition. Typically when we talk about innovation, that's grassroots.

Ryan · 9:13

It's a bottom up approach, it's a folk tradition. It's not regulated. There is no official narrative. There's not necessarily a strictly codified right or wrong way of doing things like there is in Japanese tea ceremony and the specialty movement understanding much as a specialty product outside of a ceremonial context is exactly that. So it's brushing up against these very institutionalized traditions.

Zongjun · 9:39

So if you lay outside of those institutions, that's most vast majority of matcha consumers don't even know that Urasenke and Omotesenke exist. They're vaguely aware that maybe Japanese tea ceremony is a thing, but other than that, they don't even have the context to understand where the right or wrong ways of doing things are coming from and who are who are those standard bearers. And the contradiction 2 is that it's so matcha is so ingrained in the mind of the rest of the world as so distinctly Japanese. And Japanese in this actually after the defeat of Japan in World War 2 under the American

Zongjun · 10:22

occupation, when the government declared Japan was going to be a country of culture. And that was what they wanted to solidify being known as. And you know, they look backwards at different traditions that they could promote as being distinctively Japanese.

Zongjun · 10:36

And tea ceremony was literally one of the best distillations of Japanese Ness. A number of related arts, architecture like flower arrangements, like calligraphy, like a lacquer making ceramics, It's a really deep history.

Zongjun · 10:51

And it's not just a spectator sport like sumo, which actually predates chanoyu in Japan, which is a spectator sport. It's a participatory sport. So it's very uniquely Japanese. And to have a grassroots foreign LED movement as matcha as a specialty product is kind of like a counter revolution to Japan and Japanese in this and this very top down.

Zongjun · 11:18

So it's a weird contradiction because to have matcha be a specialty product brushes directly against these tightly controlled narratives around what is and is not authentic. And to what degree one matters to the other. It's really hard to tell. Like, to what degree does a random matcha consumer that's buying Ooika matcha or Rocky's Matcha or Kettle matcha air that they should turn their bowl counterclockwise or clockwise based on that tradition, right?

Zongjun · 11:49

Like, does it matter that that's how they're not? Whether or not they're drinking it authentically, that move makes no difference on the taste of the tea. Yeah, that's true. It's, it's an interesting situation because in this case, I think we frequently make the mistake to blur the line between chanoyu and matcha.

Zongjun · 12:08

And we're talking about chanoyu, we're talking about traditions, we're talking about matcha, but they're really different things. Matcha is really just a component in chanoyu, and it's frequently not even the spotlight, not even the center of the gathering.

Zongjun · 12:26

Sometimes the theme is really focusing on the calligraphy or focusing on the special piece, like a ceramic piece being used in the tea gathering, but not the tea itself. And right now outside of the ceremonial context, we lift matcha out from it and applying onto other usage contacts.

Zongjun · 12:47

And in this case, in those cases, matcha is the spotlight, is the center of the room. You are paying attention to, you know, the flavor and the effect of matcha on you and the taste and if you like it or not like it, that that's really all you care about when you use matcha in those contexts.

Ryan · 13:08

And accusing the usage of matcha in those contexts in the names, in the names of chanoyu or violating chanoyu tradition, I think it's ridiculous. It doesn't necessarily really relate to the usage of, you know, using your, your, your matcha with sparkling water or a cold brewing your matcha or different, you know, mixture with matcha so that you want to make it tastier. Like these are completely irrelevant. And I think that's the interesting thing right here. Yeah, Zongjun, can you think of a case where it's ever productive to call someone out for being inauthentic or doing something not authentically in

Zongjun · 13:53

the world of Matcha I? Think so like after writing this piece and also, you know, having to discuss with you in the podcast, I think people should really drop the usage of authenticity authentic. It really does not necessarily have a positive implication in any ways in any kind of usage.

Zongjun · 14:14

You are putting yourself in a top down position judging other people's behavior, whether or not it's a positive or negative. I don't think it's not a word that should be used. I mean it will be hard to not use those words in your daily life, but I think at least for me, I tend to really reduce the tendency of use this word. I can think of 1 area where it might be useful. And if that someone is blatantly ripping off the traditions of tea ceremony for money to benefit off of someone else's culture.

Ryan · 14:48

Someone who's charging $1000 for tea ceremony demonstration that took five lessons and is completely butchering it, right. That is a disgrace then and should be called out. Is really not doing things authentically, nor are they probably even allowed to represent Urasenke.

Ryan · 15:08

There's a lot of rules in Japanese tea ceremony at the point and the circumstances in which any of the practitioners are allowed to represent the institution, Yeah. Then this person is. It's just wrong. It's cultural appropriation. It's cultural appropriation, it's cultural capitalization. It's this person is a thief.

Zongjun · 15:30

But yeah, I, I agree, but, you know, but in other contexts, I, I don't think you should really use the word authenticity or authentic or even have the mindset or mentality of assessing yourself. If I'm doing this authentically, I think it's really a mental cage.

Zongjun · 15:52

It's not only a weapon that you can use to accuse or attack other people, but it itself is also a cage, the forbidden one to make any innovation or make any changes or make any improvements that goes against a traditional practice or traditionally in a sense that you know, this is how people have been doing things in the past.

Zongjun · 16:16

It's not even a very long tradition in this case, right? Like chanoyu and the modern days value and practices of chanoyu or much of traditions. It's actually fairly young compared to the long history of tea. And you know, ever since tea got introduced into Japan by the monk Eisai during Song dynasty that already violate the tradition of matcha in China to begin with.

Zongjun · 16:42

You know, for for anyone that has the past to call someone out, you know, not authentic. I think the Song dynasty Chinese will have the ultimate path. But you know, that's already a violation. But So what? Tea is tasty. Tea has a phenomenal effect on health and people's mind. And that's why, you know, the Japanese people love it. Back in the days, then tea was grown in Japan, but not in the manner of how we drink matcha today. Like back in the days, you don't have shade grown, you do not have all sorts of cultivars that people have developed today. And it was really until the Industrial revolution and the introduction of modern biology

Zongjun · 17:30

that people start to be able to breed different cultivars, start to be able to understand, you know, different farming practice to the taste of matcha. And it really wasn't until the modern days that you know, with, you know, like all these farming equipments and all of these advancement in technology that regular people like you and I can enjoy matcha on daily basis.

Zongjun · 17:54

It's still expensive, but not as expensive as before. So you know, like when, when you are accusing someone not doing matcha or making matcha or drinking matcha authentically, like what exactly are you standing? Four, Are you standing? Are you envision yourself as the word words back in the days that have, you know, 200 servants serving him to drink matcha? Or are you envisioning yourself being, you know, the Sen no Rikyu himself, you know, doing matcha in the most ceremonial way? Or are you envisioning yourself being the monk Eisai, you know, just spreading the gospel of this beautiful green leaves? Like, who are you exactly

Ryan · 18:45

representing to accuse someone for not doing things authentically? I think why? And for who? Yeah. Yeah, why and for who and for what good. It's frequently it's really just a showed off, a demonstration of, you know, I have more knowledge or I have more experience than you and it doesn't really bring anything positive to the. Conversation, I mean, even around the idea of what isn't, isn't authentic matcha from a milling perspective is really difficult to define.

Ryan · 19:15

You know, something that we talked about in the last one, what is authentic matcha? And how the idea of being authentic is to be true to yourself. But the subject of self can change, right? As I said, you know, authenticity can mean different things to different people in different contexts.

Ryan · 19:32

So talking about just matcha milling, you know, if you talk to people 150 years ago, what is authentically milk matcha, it was people at home with servants with their own little ishi-usu milling it and they were buying tencha as a product that was authentically milled matcha. You didn't buy matcha, you bought tencha and then one of your servants milled it for you and put it very carefully in your natsume for you to prepare for you and your friends. Where today, you know, people are using industrial ishi-usu, much larger format, much larger than they were ever using in the past.

Ryan · 20:10

That's an innovation. And now you have people saying that it's not even authentic matcha and this it comes from an industrial ishi-usu. Which, you know, would your answer would have been very different 150 years ago. And now you even have things like ball mills or beef mills, which can do much higher volume product.

Ryan · 20:28

You know that a lot of that product actually tastes perfectly fine. And it's the only reason why most people can afford matcha. It's the only reason why it can be in every Starbucks in the world for new consumers to try it for the first time. And to call that inauthentic is a little a little bit disingenuous.

Ryan · 20:48

It's not serving anybody because everything is authentic depending on the lens that you're looking through or if you flip the context or the time period. Yeah, it's it's very relative and for people. And the relative, it's never communicated the perspective.

Ryan · 21:05

The relative perspective is very rarely communicated. And it's almost always used to say what I'm doing is better than what you have or what this other person doing. Yeah, that's that's really the implication of. It's used as a weapon. Yeah, using the word authenticity. Like even if I'm telling you that oh, you are doing this very authentically as a compliment, it doesn't really contribute any good either either.

Ryan · 21:37

You are vastly ignorant or you are, you know, acknowledging someone based off of your own experience. You know, so that you to demonstrate that you qualify to access other people's practice. You know, it never dawned on me of the arrogance of using authenticity as a compliment because it automatic. The implicit indicator is I have more knowledge or context than you to call you authentic.

Zongjun · 22:08

Yeah, to make that judgment on behalf of whatever reference point I'm referring to, whether or not it's the ceremony or some ancient cultivation practice. Yeah, yeah. I think to revert back to your previous question, like in what context does authenticity or authentic, the word authentic appropriate? I think it's it needs to be very very context specific. Like you are doing authentic Omotesenke tea ceremony practice, you are doing authentic Uji proper tea farming.

Zongjun · 22:43

Although even that is probably a little bit vague because farming practice in Japan also change all the time. Or you really broaden the aperture but you're defining the point. Like if you're using a Chasen to whisk matcha, it is a reasonably accurate statement to say that's how they whisk matcha authentically in Japan.

Zongjun · 23:03

Almost everyone in Japan is using a Chasen. Like that is 1/2 decent statement if you define it what the relative the subject of authenticity. It's not saying much, but you know, it's less harmful. Yeah. Or if the practice is very, very much regulated by a authority or a institution, like a certain school of Chanoyu, I think then you can use the word authenticity. Yeah.

Zongjun · 23:33

Because it's predefined, it's very well regulated and codified. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But even for, you know, for, for, for chess and for for tea. Whisk you slowly will see people even inside of Japan, you know, using other mechanisms to whisk tea or you know, they attach the Chasen onto some sort of a vibrator to increase the efficiency in modern Cafe. You know this doesn't necessarily doing any harm to the tea you drink.

Zongjun · 24:04

I don't think so, right? If froth the tea very perfectly and it produce a very delicious bowl of matcha or matcha latte. If the gold is to create a good tasting bold of matcha for you, for the consumers, I think any practice should be welcomed and you should be encouraged and it should not be accused of violating a tradition. Yeah.

Zongjun · 24:29

I totally agree. Yeah, I mean this mindset of innovation even exist within Chanoyu. Like every generation of Iemoto or the head of the house are allowed to make one change, you know, based on their understanding. So it you know like Chanoyu is not anti change either. It changed very slowly, but it's changing too. So I think, you know, like being or calling someone or using the word authenticity.

Zongjun · 25:00

Really it's treating a culture or practice as a static. It's taking a snapshot of a culture and wanted to remain the same way forever. It's really a demonstration of someone not want to learn more or not want to progress further and want to use a certain reservoir of knowledge or experience as the ultimate truth.

Ryan · 25:26

And I think that's very harmful, yeah. Oh, I agree. It it, it completely reduces the idea that these things change over the time and that the most authentic version of Urasenke or Omotesenke or of any of these institutions is literally the most up to date version.

Ryan · 25:43

Important point. You know, Sam, I, I just thought of a, a different point. So, so far we've discussed that authenticity can be used as a license to police others. It can be used as a weapon, but I also think it can be used as a shield where it is incredibly easy.

Ryan · 26:01

Source of credibility for a new matcha brand. Imagine you're a new matcha brand introducing, you know, premium matcha, specialty matcha, whatever you want to call it to your country for the first time. Or you're a very early player and you say I've sourced the most authentic matcha from Japan.

Ryan · 26:18

It's like the easiest pillar for brand building and credibility. That also really, what exactly does that mean to someone who has very little context? To me it just sounds like more top down positioning. I am telling you what is good and I'm doing it by saying I have judged all of these matches in the world. I have selected this one for my brand because it's the most authentic and probably the reference point is for the country of Japan.

Ryan · 26:49

So to not like this product is to not like this deep rooted tradition in Japan that all of these Japanese people like and appreciate. It's deflecting blame if you don't like the product. Yeah, it's in either context, you are trying to bring in a larger group of people behind you to endorse your practice. So I think it's, it's understandable to to certain extent to see people do so.

Ryan · 27:19

But on the other hand, you know, it's, it really doesn't help the consumer to educate themselves or have any opinions on the very product that they are buying and they are consuming. The interesting point here is that the practice is trying to inflicting consumer guilt. It's almost a weight of gaslighting. I don't like your product.

Ryan · 27:42

It's not because of the product is bad. It's because I don't understand enough. I think that's. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's playing in people's ignorance, Yeah. It's trying to incept this mentality that you know you are offloading the responsibility towards consumers, not you know.

Ryan · 27:59

I mean, it's a way of protecting yourself just like any Shield does. I mean, let's give a very tangible example of this. Say you're a new matcha brand. Say you ordered, you're brand new. You don't exactly know how much people are going to order yet.

Ryan · 28:11

Let's say you order 20 kilos of matcha, which is a pretty small order from Japan, and it gets stuck in customs and it sits in a hot warehouse for months. Product finally arrives to you and you need to sell it. You have no choice.

Ryan · 28:25

You have no other money. This is the product you need to move it and you're claiming that it's authentic matcha from multi generational farmers in Japan. And if someone doesn't like it, authenticity is a fantastic shield to put in front of that product. No one would know and no one is blaming you, the vendor for keeping old inventory that's degraded, right? It has this big golden stamp of approval for most people that, oh, it's authentic matcha.

Ryan · 28:55

So people in Japan drink. It's made by really by people who really know what they're doing. And in that case, it's a shield with spikes in the back. And they're not harming the brand necessarily, but might be harming the reputation of the whole industry where either people are or consumers are blaming themselves.

Zongjun · 29:12

I don't understand this enough. I don't have the context or ability to appreciate this. I'm the problem, not the fact that that product sat and degraded for months. It's a very effective one because especially for consumers who have experienced the other specialty products on you know, for example like pour tea or peated Islay Scotch, they are usually a acquired taste like for beginners.

Zongjun · 29:39

It's very natural or comment to not like the product in the first place. And the, you know, the preference is cultivated and it's slow. It happens later with, you know, multiple times of exposure. So this is a very effective shield because, you know, people with formative experience like that would naturally think that maybe I'm just not understanding it enough.

Zongjun · 30:04

And let me try one more time and one more time and with some other contacts, maybe eventually I will understand. It's a it's, it's probably true in some context, like if if you know this person or this vendor is indeed trusting, you know, high quality matcha from a multi generation house, but it's just because you know, they, they are really into this, you know, ultra intensity umaminess in their teeth, you know, like beginners. They might not like, you know, that very, you know, umami flavor in the tea, but you know, later on they might like it. So it's, it can be true in some certain context, but it can also be true that just as you

Zongjun · 30:48

described, Ryan, like this tea has sitting in the warehouse for literally 2 months and it's stale and the color is turning yellow, turning grayish and it's just not good tea anymore. But for a beginner who just got into the world of like, and especially when they have a very respectful, humble mindset, wanted to, you know, learn more like, this will be very discouraging and very harmful. Yeah, very harmful and a terrible trap that, you know, most tea companies, including ourselves, I mean, we've used the word authentic that, you know, we all fall into. So it's, it's important to be mindful of that. And there's this whole counter

Ryan · 31:34

movement around not using the word authentic, especially within the context of Asian food products in the US, because this idea of authenticity means so many things to so many different people in so many different contexts.

Ryan · 31:49

A lot of the more modern brands have gone away with this term. And there's a really interesting study that's referenced by a lot of people who've dropped this term. Brands like fly by Jings, brands like Amsam, brands like Wen Coffee Company, for example, who are trying to like establish a better Vietnamese coffee as a category.

Ryan · 32:09

And that Robusta can actually be good is apparently someone did a study of like Yelp reviews of ethnic restaurants in New York City. And whenever the word authenticity was used within the context of like a Western restaurant, like a French or Italian restaurant, it almost always was overwhelmingly positive.

Ryan · 32:34

And whenever it was used for an Asian restaurant, like a Chinese restaurant or a Thai restaurant, it was overwhelmingly negative of these people casting judgment on the authenticity of that cuisine and how a lot of Western cuisines like Italian food or French fruit food have way much more cultural cachet and liberty and flexibility to innovate. You know, someone, some French chef doing an innovative technique that might not be exactly what they were doing 50 years ago gets applauded.

Ryan · 33:13

Whereas the same chef that just happens to be from a different country and has different colored skin is doing the same thing, gets criticized for being not authentic. And so there's also almost a racist component to some of this as well by certain people calling other people out for being inauthentic and this double standard, especially when the within the context of Asian food.

Zongjun · 33:37

Yeah, it's very interesting because I guess it's a natural difficulty of doing anythings outside of the country of origin or the place of origin of a a culture or a practice. Because, you know, the one of the implications of authenticity is that there is a geographic, usually a geographic location of where the practice begins. And by doing the practice outside of the geographic location naturally will let people to think or to judge if you are doing it authentic or not authentic. So I think that's a very, I would say to some extent inevitable difficulty that people will encounter of doing anything or practicing anything

Ryan · 34:25

that does have a geographic origin. Yeah, and. You know, within the context of matcha, it's overwhelmingly negative. This implications of where it's where something is inauthentic, where is like in any western context, seeing innovation is interesting and it's very unfair, especially in matcha that it's almost always a negative thing.

Ryan · 34:49

Which actually brings me to my 4th analogy around the around the authenticity trap. And that authenticity can be used as a muzzle. So where people will purposely try not to innovate or do anything interesting out of fears of being called not authentic.

Ryan · 35:11

It's some self-imposed restriction of agency where it's much more simple to say, look, I'm sourcing these authentic things from these authentic people. Like it or hate it, if you cast judgement on it, you're casting judgement not just on this product or my brand, but on all of Japan or all of the implications of what authenticity means to you. And it prevents probably a lot of innovation from happening where people are saying, who am I to make any changes? I'm not the expert.

Ryan · 35:41

Why would I blend matcha for my customers even though I could probably reach a profile that they would like more? Who am I to whisk matcha with sparkling water? That's not how they do it in Japan. That's not what I want to promote.

Ryan · 35:54

And you lead into these, you kind of lean back a bit and you remove agency to do some very so it could be interesting and innovative changes. Like you don't have people in specialty coffee thinking about that. They're not changing what they're doing based on whether or not someone's judging them for being authentic.

Ryan · 36:12

We don't think that way in chocolate making. We don't even think that way in wine, right? There's people doing all sorts of interesting things around natural fermentations and carbonic maceration. Like there's all these interesting components that people can do because they're not chained and muzzled by this restriction in this cage of authenticity.

Zongjun · 36:35

Yeah. It's very interesting because when you see all the other product categories that you just talking about, you don't necessarily see a existence of something like chanoyu in those product category, something so powerful and so intertwined with a nation or a culture or group of people race. I think that's that's interesting observation from my end.

Ryan · 37:04

So that's why Matcha is particularly special in this case. If we want the specialty matcha movement to become successful, we need to stop utilizing or falling into this authenticity trap. It is something incredibly different than tea ceremony and tradition and what a lot of people in a lot of contexts would consider quote UN quote authentic matcha.

Ryan · 37:26

But it's actually harmful to these tea ceremony institutions and the legacy that is matcha and chanoyu is a dying. Practitioners are dying year after year after year, and fewer people want to become practitioners.

Ryan · 37:41

If you look at like the statistics of who's consuming tea in Japan, I think it's something like 15% of young people consume tea regularly, and it's something like 70% of like 70 and 80 year olds. You have this huge demographic problem where there's this deficit of consumers who are young who are going to take it over.

Ryan · 38:01

So for matcha to survive as an art, not only does it need to internationalize, but you need to have a new group of practitioners interested in it. And it's much easier to attract new consumers to to a ceremonial practice if they were already interested in matcha in the 1st place.

Ryan · 38:19

So if we stop going around and using authenticity as a license to police, as a weapon, as a shield and as a muzzle, perhaps matcha as a specialty product can become more successful, get more people consuming it in a specialty context in a cafe or at home. And then naturally a subgroup of those people might become interested in going down the rabbit hole that is the traditional ceremonial art of tea ceremony and quote, UN quote authentic practices like having it being in every specialty matcha shop where it's being represented in an interesting way, in a way that consumers are primed to appreciate. Like talking about cultivar,

Ryan · 39:02

talking about the farmer, talking about cultivation methods, explaining the difference between handpicked and machine picked or different shading styles. All of these rich and interesting specialty components can be in service to what we all think of as authentic matcha culture. That's totally true.

Zongjun · 39:20

I mean, this is really good for everybody, like spreading the awareness of matcha. And that will inevitably be a gateway for people to want to learn more about matcha and to, you know, and they can take their own path. Following the tradition. Ceremonial practice of matcha is certainly one way at preventing people.

Ryan · 39:41

But encouraging more people to learn more about Japan, learn more about matcha, I think it's it's helpful for everybody. Yeah. Only brings more awareness. It's the opposite of inclusive. These people going around saying you're not authentic, that's saying you're not one of us.

Ryan · 39:58

You don't deserve to be here. There's so many implicit messages. In that attack that it's, it's doing way more harm than good. They're not, especially for people who are doing this entirely outside of the ceremonial context. It's, it's horrible.

Zongjun · 40:16

It's really upsetting to see and it's really a hindrance on growth. And I think it's a huge trap that we are all guilty of falling into and we need to rethink this framework, I think. Totally agree. Totally agree. I think we should really embrace ourselves into the specialty movement and trying to not think about matcha in the lens of it being a product from Japan or a product from a ceremony. It needs to be really set free.

Zongjun · 40:46

It needs to be on its own. And if we want to even want to even discuss anything that's related to the practice or the tradition of matcha itself, it really should be the farming practice or the processing or the manufacturer practices.

Zongjun · 41:05

It should not be practices related to how matcha has been consumed. I think that's one aspect of Matcha that has been so flexible and so dynamic and so non static even within Japan that you know, any discussion of it being consumed in the right way. So it's, it's really, it's really ridiculous to me. I think looking to the farmers and production practices is it's more interesting because you know get concentrating interest in those things.

Ryan · 41:46

Default brings more people into the specialty matcha movement because all the traditional players who focus on quote UN quote authentically crafted matcha are don't have transparent labels and don't talk about any of the things that lead to flavor variation within the product, which is what the vast majority of consumers care about.

Ryan · 42:08

If you have 3 cans of matcha where you cannot see what's inside, and one's $20, one's $40, and one's $60.00, you care a whole lot that the $60.00 one tastes better than the $20 one. That's part of what you're paying for, and if it doesn't, you're probably not going to buy that $60.00 one again.

Ryan · 42:28

And understanding how and why that's the case are the conditions that we need for a thriving specialty market so that people can make those predictions. And these concepts of authenticity are really a distraction and a never ending look backwards.

Ryan · 42:46

That's not static and the reference point is ambiguous. And it can be used as a license to police others, as a weapon, as a shield and as a muzzle. It's a very distracting conversation for 99.9% of practitioners. Maybe it's a productive conversation if you're an anthropologist, if you are in the leadership of one of these institutions, or a teacher of tea ceremony, or a historian.

Zongjun · 43:13

But outside of those contexts, who cares? Yep. So I guess I'll advocate our advocation here today is stop using the word authenticity or authentic instead is what is this matcha will or ask yourself, do I like this matcha? And you know that really should be it. And you know one grants you knowledge more knowledge about the tea itself.

Ryan · 43:38

The others grants you self-assessment of your own preference. And that way you can make more or better decision for yourself in your journey of drinking more matcha in the future. Yeah. And actually, I think I have a great summer re reinterpretation of what you just said and tell me how right I am.

Ryan · 43:55

It's about looking in, not out. If you're worried about authenticity, you're constantly worried about what other people think of you or how other people think of the product that you just bought or the way that you're preparing it or whatever, versus asking yourself, what do I like?

Ryan · 44:12

How do I get the knowledge and context to get more of what I like? Why do my preferences change over time? Am I doing this the right way for me versus in the context of what other people think, no matter what that is? Totally agree.

Zongjun · 44:28

And I think that's true for the matcha consumer, and I think that's true for the matcha business. Whether or not you own a cafe, or you own a matcha brand, or you're somehow associated with the supply chain, we need to start looking more in and less out.

Zongjun · 44:41

Especially if the out is this ambiguous thing, which is authenticity, which is where far too many people get trapped. Yeah, clarity, Ryan, clarity like this is really a 2 ends of a spectrum. One is totally objective, the other is totally subjective. Yes.

Zongjun · 44:58

It is. Yeah, for authenticity. You're creating a vague illusion of the ultimate truth. But there there are ultimate truth in matcha, right? Like what cultivar is this matcha? How it was processed, how long has it been shaded, how it was milled and these are solid ground truth and they are something that's totally objective. And on the other end, do I like it? Will I will I be liking, you know, this in, you know, some other context and why do I like it? What aspect do I like about this particular matcha? These are totally subjective opinion that's benefiting your own consumption, your own enjoyment of this matcha. Yeah.

Ryan · 45:43

I. Couldn't, couldn't agree more. It needs to be more focused on on enjoyment and fulfillment, whatever that means to you. Yep. So. So I guess you know like looping it all back to our argument, like stay true to yourself, stay true to matcha. I think that is the most authentic matcha experience you can get.

Ryan · 46:04

Yes, yes. And I think these are the two points on the spectrum that you can state the most true, right, Like you have your own true feeling of a product and you have the very true facts about this product. And I think these are the two ways that you can stay true to matcha. I think that's a perfect note to end on any final words. Sam No.

Zongjun · 46:28

Drink more matcha and stop calling matcha authentic or not. And by the way, this is an opinion piece too. So this is our strong opinion, which is loosely held. If anyone has any major disagreements or any points that we're blind to or not noticing or we'd love to hear from you, we'd love to turn this into a discussion.

Zongjun · 46:48

We do think it's worth having discussions about the negative effects of what largely people would consider to be a positive thing, like an authentic practice. But really, the most authentic practice is not what other people think. It's what what whatever the best thing is for you. And you stay true to yourself without fear of others casting judgement on you.

Zongjun · 47:17

And in turn, you should not cast judgement on others. So that's our take. If you enjoyed this podcast, please consider sharing with friend or giving us five stars on whatever platform you're listening to and we'll see you on the next one. See you in the next episode.