Interview with Matcha Moments, Monique
Share
Ryan And Sam (00:00)
Hello, and welcome to the Specialty Matcha Podcast. My name is Ryan. This is my co -host, Zongjun Hello, hello. And we're the co -founders of Sanko Matcha Products. Yeah, we launched this podcast to discuss our learning journey in matcha, share startup stories, and interview experts. And today, we are happy to have Monique from Matcha Moments. Welcome to the podcast.
Monique (00:19)
Hello guys, thank you for having me here.
Ryan And Sam (00:21)
Thanks so much for being on. Could you tell us a little bit sort of about your background and Matcha Moments and sort of the mission of that page?
Monique (00:31)
So I'm unique. actually have a background in the arts. I was trained as
Ryan And Sam (00:37)
cool!
Monique (00:38)
a classical music singer and for
Ryan And Sam (00:42)
Hello.
Monique (00:43)
a big chunk of my life, I've dedicated it towards the performing arts. For about a decade, I was also a music teacher and a vocal coach. But in 2020, when COVID hit,
I had a major transition when I started this online education platform which provides after school services and programs to students. And that's when I discovered this joy and passion for entrepreneurship. So
Ryan And Sam (01:18)
Hmm.
Monique (01:19)
I realized that I love the challenge. I love it when I'm able to
give solutions to different problems. And now I've embraced the life of an entrepreneur. For Matcha Moments it actually started as a YouTube channel. It's still there. It was a space for me to journal my daily experiences, reflections about life and my existence.
So I would upload videos of me doing my daily matcha ritual. And because of that, I get to consume matcha every day. But this year, I shifted matcha moments into a business of selling matcha. Initially, it was just reselling famous matcha brands from Japan.
Ryan And Sam (02:11)
Mm -hmm.
Monique (02:11)
That was the
easy way so I was just reselling it. But then when I dove deeper into the world of matcha, I saw this need for local cafes and businesses to have access to matcha they can use for business purposes. Because the matcha that we resell from Japan are quite expensive and not very attractive to be used for business. So that's
Ryan And Sam (02:36)
Hmm.
Monique (02:37)
why it's more popular.
Popular matcha brands are more popular with home users and not very popular, or just starting to get popular with cafe use. And so I saw this need to be able to provide matcha for these businesses. that's why I focused on
providing authentic matcha to cafes and restaurants and that's where Matcha Moments is right now. It's basically a matcha supplier for cafes and food businesses.
Ryan And Sam (03:12)
Very interesting. So Monique you are based in the Philippines. Can you share to our audience a little bit of what's the matcha scene like in the Philippines? Do you see a lot of single origin or single cultivar matcha in the Philippines? What do people usually drink or what do they like?
Monique (03:29)
In the past few years, matcha definitely became popular in the Philippines. Nowadays, can see matcha drinks offered in the menu of almost every cafe.
Ryan And Sam (03:41)
Mm.
Monique (03:42)
But authentic matcha, the use of matcha as, or the idea of matcha as tea is still just getting started. Many still know matcha as a flavor.
not really as tea. For
example, when I started to sell matcha and I went to visit different cafes, most of them would have a first experience with matcha as tea and they would be surprised that, it's actually tea. It's the same as the tea that we enjoy, but this one is powdered. So it's
Ryan And Sam (04:20)
interesting.
Monique (04:22)
very interesting thing.
for me to experience. matcha again is, pure authentic matcha is expensive here. And so many cafes and food businesses find it hard to switch to using pure powdered matcha, powdered tea from this flavored
powdered mix, flavored matcha mix. even the specialty coffee cafes, some of them still use this flavored powdered mix only. so that's why the authentic matcha is mostly popular for home users than the cafes.
But I've seen many specialty coffee shops switch to using pure matcha and some of them would be... One problem that I see is many vendors would sell cheap matcha and put the marketing of ceremonial to this cheap
Ryan And Sam (05:25)
Yeah.
Monique (05:26)
matcha. So...
many of these local cafes would be using this marketing term as well that they're using ceremonial grade when they don't really know what it means or
Ryan And Sam (05:42)
you
Monique (05:43)
at least not giving any information to their customers what ceremonial grade will mean so definitely matcha has progressed here in the Philippines but the use of pure matcha
It's just getting started.
Ryan And Sam (06:00)
Interesting. Do you think it's more of a push or a pull? Are like the consumers trying to demanding matcha, pulling it out of businesses, out of vendors saying we want a higher quality product? Or is it people like tea people or people who love Japanese tea or those vendors trying to sell a better and higher quality matcha to change consumers perception?
of what is good matcha Is it more consumer driven or is it more like vendor driven, these changes in your observations?
Monique (06:34)
sure but I believe it's very much influenced by surprise because that's
Ryan And Sam (06:44)
Mm.
Monique (06:46)
why when I started this matcha business I was able to see a breakthrough when it comes to shift to using purity.
Again, it's more popular with home users right now. The local cafes Of course, they know the value of using high -quality ingredients. And that's what is good for local cafes. And I truly believe that these cafes and food businesses will be the true ambassadors of matcha.
Ryan And Sam (07:21)
Yeah.
Monique (07:21)
because they know the importance of using quality ingredients and they have the passion, they have the platform, they also have the audience. And so that's why I'm focusing with business owners and local cafes. I think it's very much driven by, currently, it's very much driven by the price.
And that's why I want to give more tea education so that people will not just value the price, but also
Ryan And Sam (07:55)
Yeah.
Monique (07:55)
story behind matcha.
Ryan And Sam (07:56)
Very interesting. How do you structure your education content and when you approach to businesses or regular consumers or people just like matcha or want to learn more about matcha? What's your methodology and do you have priorities in educating consumers?
Monique (08:16)
I'm
still working on that because I'm actually a newbie in the world of matcha. So I'm learning more every day. And my content, especially in social media, focused on crafting matcha drinks because
Ryan And Sam (08:33)
Thank you.
Monique (08:34)
I'm working with cafes who are using it for the first time. So I have to give them something to start with.
I recently find that many, there are many who do that already. So you'd find social media influencers and matcha companies offering recipes,
Ryan And Sam (08:54)
Mm
Monique (08:55)
featuring different recipes. And so many people already do this. So I'd love to focus more on tea education, but I'd love to...
package it in a way that would use coffee, knowledge structure, what we already have and experience with coffee, and then connect that to matcha so that matcha would not be such a foreign thing, like it's very alien.
Ryan And Sam (09:25)
Yeah.
Monique (09:26)
It's still very new and
I believe sometimes I try to take a step back and just imagine I'm a very new matcha consumer and I don't know anything about it. So I usually get the questions like, what's the difference between ceremonial and culinary or these stuff that are very true. If you don't know anything about matcha, you'd be like, what's the difference, right?
Ryan And Sam (09:56)
Yeah.
Monique (09:56)
Because one of the most successful specialty product in the Philippines is coffee. I'd love
Ryan And Sam (10:05)
Thank you.
Monique (10:05)
to use that success or that maybe tap on that knowledge structure and then apply it to matcha so that it will be more relatable and people will not find it very, very alien.
That's my focus for the next content that I will be sharing on social media.
Ryan And Sam (10:27)
cool, that's cool. We were in the Philippines for the first time in 2018 and I remember we were looking for specialty coffee shops to work out of and we're really into that scene and I think it was somewhere in Makati we found a really fantastic local roaster and kind of became our office for the week. But it was, at least by our perception, the places we had traveled to it's
Manila seemed to be really advanced specialty coffee culture compared
Monique (10:57)
Mm
Ryan And Sam (10:57)
to a lot of other places even was that over five years ago. Yeah, because when we were in Bangkok, it wasn't, know, yeah, Bangkok at that time in 2019, you know, there was some matcha, but it wasn't like everywhere like it
Monique (11:11)
Yes.
Ryan And Sam (11:12)
is now. These things are happening fast. Yeah, really fast. Really curious to see how that evolves. And I think you're right. Through cafes, you know, they're the
They have the platform already.
Monique (11:24)
Yep. They already have this appreciation for high quality product and definitely they would be the most influential, I believe. You'll be able to reach more people through the platform of local cafes and that's why I love to work with these people more.
Ryan And Sam (11:45)
Monique, you have a very interesting perspective in a way that you told us that you are also Urasenke practitioner
and
Monique (11:52)
Yeah.
Ryan And Sam (11:52)
you have this performing art background. Somehow I can see the connection between these two. And
Monique (11:59)
Yeah.
Ryan And Sam (11:59)
also right now you are into specialty matcha. What's the Urasenke community like in the Philippines?
and you travel quite far to the distance in terms of
Monique (12:08)
Yes.
Ryan And Sam (12:09)
community time to study Urasenke It's quite a commitment. Can you maybe share a little bit about what's your experience and what did you learn and what's the community like over there?
Monique (12:25)
The Urasenke community in the Philippines is quite active. they
Ryan And Sam (12:29)
Yes.
Monique (12:29)
hold multiple sessions throughout the week.
Ryan And Sam (12:36)
wow, very frequent.
Monique (12:39)
Currently there's three sessions, three schedules per week. And then they hold public demonstrations and host tea gatherings open to the public every year.
But currently, it's just located in one city, the city where you went to, it's in Makati.
Ryan And Sam (12:58)
Makati.
Monique (12:59)
only those who live nearby can join. And when it comes to specialty, matcha as a specialty product, I don't see the Urasenke
community in the Philippines pushing for pushing for that because the focus of the group is to practice and for the philosophy and the preservation of this Japanese tea, the art of that Japanese tea ceremony. So definitely matcha is just a part of
Ryan And Sam (13:39)
Yeah.
Monique (13:39)
And
I actually joined the Urasenke community because I want to learn more about matcha.
Ryan And Sam (13:46)
Hahaha
Monique (13:48)
we're taught how to handle it, how to respect it. But it's just part of the practice. It's not the highlight. Tea education is
as product is not the focus of the group. It's more
Ryan And Sam (14:06)
Yeah.
Monique (14:06)
of the practice of the art of the Japanese tea ceremony. So definitely, if you want to learn about matcha as a product, you would not be experiencing much of that if you joined the Urasenke practice channel.
Ryan And Sam (14:25)
Yeah, both Ryan and I came
Monique (14:26)
So that's what I learned.
Ryan And Sam (14:29)
from a Omotesenke background and it's
Monique (14:31)
All
Ryan And Sam (14:31)
indeed you learn the usage of, know, matcha, how to handle matcha in a ceremonial way, but not necessarily matcha itself.
Monique (14:41)
Yes.
Ryan And Sam (14:43)
I bet a lot of people join Chanoyu because they want to learn about more matcha. Tea, the itself. I would never really think like this.
Monique (14:48)
Yeah.
Sometimes when some of my friends would ask, how do I join the Urasenke school Because I know they are very much into matcha. I usually tell them beforehand that
Ryan And Sam (15:05)
Yeah
Monique (15:07)
it will be a separate thing. So you would not expect much about the tea education.
expect more of a cultural immersion than the tea education itself. But some of them still join, of course.
Ryan And Sam (15:27)
I mean,
it's still very fun, very cool. Very fun to be a guest. It's a big way
Monique (15:32)
Yeah.
Ryan And Sam (15:34)
towards a lot of Japanese culture and art. It's
Monique (15:37)
Mm, yep.
Ryan And Sam (15:38)
an amalgamation of calligraphy and traditional art and everything. And also you
Monique (15:43)
Yes.
Ryan And Sam (15:44)
drink matcha at the end, like two hours. Two
Monique (15:47)
Yeah.
Ryan And Sam (15:48)
hours in, and finally we can sip the matcha.
Monique (15:52)
I love the idea of the Japanese tea ceremony. I mean, idea itself, that's why I got into matcha.
Ryan And Sam (16:01)
Yeah.
Monique (16:02)
I love the experience of being very present and involving all of your senses with,
Ryan And Sam (16:12)
Hmm.
Monique (16:13)
you know.
hearing the sound of the water touch the
Ryan And Sam (16:16)
Yeah.
Monique (16:17)
pool and the aroma of matcha when the water hits it. It's a very relaxing experience.
Ryan And Sam (16:26)
Hmm.
Monique (16:27)
for me, it's an amazing mindfulness exercise. That's why really, that's what got started.
got me started with matcha. My passion for it is the idea of the Japanese tea ceremony as a mindfulness exercise. So yeah, still promote the traditional preparation of matcha if you want to use it in that sense, if your intention is very clear that this is how you want to experience matcha.
in a very mindful way, then definitely go for it.
Ryan And Sam (17:04)
I really like the intentionality of it too. It's like how the economy of movements is like never a wasted movement or step. And like how
Monique (17:13)
Yes.
Ryan And Sam (17:14)
the guests or the host will never turn their back to the guest unless it's like taking up the wastewater bowl. So it really forces you to be present as a student. Like it's just layers and layers of learning about this hidden intentionality.
It's really hard to, it's really easy to gloss over that and not even notice.
Monique (17:36)
Yep.
Ryan And Sam (17:37)
When you learn it, it's, I think that's something that I've noticed in a lot of like the thing that separates like a good matcha program from a bad matcha program at a cafe in particular is the concept of economy of movements. Like where is everything being placed? If where does it place if it's dirty or clean and like a lot of these setups, you have all this crossover of
wet powder, dry powder, powder spilled everywhere, dribble spilled everywhere. And the really good ones, it's not only do they have economy of movement, where it's very efficient, but you don't have all this mess that can happen when it's not like pre -planned. Yeah. I really.
Monique (18:17)
interested
in learning more about that because again, I work with cafes and I don't really, that didn't really come into my mind like giving them suggestions on how they set up their matcha
Ryan And Sam (18:32)
Yeah.
Monique (18:35)
workspace. yeah, maybe we can try to think of ways on how to make it better with a set of
Maybe you can share. What do you think is best?
Ryan And Sam (18:48)
We did a podcast with Jev from MTCH in Bangkok and
Monique (18:52)
yeah.
Ryan And Sam (18:54)
he is a very interesting philosophy around this and the workstation for all three of his cafes are identical to the centimeter so that like any himself or any of the baristas could probably blindfolded
like prepare a drink because everything's muscle memory. I like Chanoyu Like I found like all like the like a lot of my teachers, I'm like very confident that they could do it blindfolded. Like they
Monique (19:22)
Yeah.
Ryan And Sam (19:22)
just, they know because everything is the same. Like I remember being corrected and said, no, you need to move it like two more centimeters this way. in this way, probably a lot of modern
Monique (19:29)
Yes, yes.
Ryan And Sam (19:38)
can learn from this very traditional art that had been perfected for countries. think that's something that, instead of retrofitting the equipment being used, you retrofit the process. Or modify.
Monique (19:53)
Yeah. wonder how.
they would be able to set that up knowing that there will be, of course, big machine for the espresso. And some of these cafes don't have that much space. But
Ryan And Sam (20:08)
Yeah.
Monique (20:10)
yeah, definitely the matcha space would usually look sad and empty. So
Ryan And Sam (20:16)
Hahaha
Monique (20:17)
I'd love to explore that idea more and maybe help cafes.
elevate their matcha workshop, matcha workspace.
Ryan And Sam (20:25)
Yeah, there's the economy of space too. Yeah, economy of space. It's true. They had to adapt it. And right now it's a neglected little corner, unfortunately, in a lot of places. We've a lot of very sad looking utensils.
Monique (20:35)
Yes.
Ryan And Sam (20:39)
As you approach these different coffee businesses, what messaging have you gone in to?
try to sell to one of these businesses or get them to have higher quality matcha didn't work very well. And what's messaging that's been very successful? Like beyond like it's a higher quality ingredient, like how does that, what is the context you need to share with someone to get them to make a decision that yes, we want to promote high quality matcha, specialty matcha. We want to level up our matcha program.
So it's on the same level of how much we care about the coffee. Like how does that conversation go and how does it go good or how does it go poorly?
Monique (21:24)
Usually, approach in a way of featuring the profit that they can get.
Ryan And Sam (21:29)
okay.
Monique (21:30)
For example, currently I offer three types of matcha, like the low tier, the mid tier, and the most expensive one. Not really very expensive.
I priced it for business use. So I give them the costing how much will be the mark
up for drink, how much will be the cost of matcha for drink, and then add in all their other costs and what will be the profit margin for each drink.
So usually that's how I'm able to sell the idea that you can actually still earn good profit by using pure matcha instead of using the powdered flavored powdered.
Ryan And Sam (22:21)
next.
Monique (22:22)
Yeah. And usually one of the things that makes them
really do the shift is to taste it. So I do tea tasting and
Ryan And Sam (22:32)
Okay
Monique (22:34)
then assemble the matcha there, then and there and let them taste the difference. Sometimes if they would have unavailable matcha mix there, I don't usually do that, but they would know the difference. But it's totally different because most of the cafes that I go to is the first time that
they would experience pure matcha
Ryan And Sam (22:56)
Yeah.
Monique (22:59)
tea. most likely I am able to change their minds. I also give, if the cafes are far from me, I give them samples and then give them a guide on how to do the tea tasting. Very specific so that they can recreate the same
experience I want them to experience when they taste the teas. And most likely these cafes would change your mind and shift to using pure matcha and offer it in their menus. that's the thing. Either I gave tea tastings or gave tea samples. I sent samples to these cafes.
And then they experience it themselves. It's very important that these business owners experience and taste it. That's how I usually do
Ryan And Sam (23:56)
That's interesting. My girlfriend used to sell fine chocolate in Hong Kong from a French company. And I was asking her about what that was like. She was selling to a lot of nicer hotels or nice restaurants. And it was single origin chocolate, very well processed. And I was like, OK, what was the sales pitch to these people? And she was like, price
Monique (24:19)
Yes.
Ryan And Sam (24:22)
And then, part two is, and then tasting. It seems like how
Monique (24:25)
Yeah.
Ryan And Sam (24:26)
a lot of these B2B type sales and relationships start. It's like, one, is it economically viable?
Monique (24:32)
and I yeah,
I also experienced, I learned it, I learned, I learned it a hard way that I approach cafes who are not very much into this fast pace serving. Like, I
Ryan And Sam (24:48)
Hmm. Okay.
Monique (24:50)
can't remember.
there's this one cafe approach and I said, would you like to try your matcha? then they said, just send your samples because it's in the city where I live. So I said, can go there and do the tasting. But please help me with the water, with the ice and these materials. And then the cafe told me, why do we have
give you this much time and
just give us a sample. And I'm like, I have to prepare it in front of you and show you how it's done. So I just took a step back and looked at the cafe and it's this very fast -paced cafe who offers cheaper drinks.
I realized that these are the cafes that would not fit the, at least for now, would not accept the idea of using high quality ingredients because they're more into fast -paced, yes,
Ryan And Sam (25:49)
They're prioritizing quantity, definitely.
Monique (25:52)
more of the quantity than the quality. So I've shifted my focus to approaching
specialty coffee cafes or those cafes whom I think would have more appreciation of using high quality ingredients like pure matcha.
Ryan And Sam (26:09)
Based on the preferences of the local market, do you think people in the Philippines are more or less likely to like the really umami heavy profiles? Or do you think they'd be more like the roasty toasty yame style? What's the local preference like in terms of just flavor? Because we learned in Bangkok that people like the umami quite a bit, which is surprise. In mainland China,
I definitely roast No one likes the umami.
Monique (26:36)
Well, coming from my experience selling matcha, I sell matcha from Yame. So most
Ryan And Sam (26:44)
Okay, okay.
Monique (26:45)
of the cafes I approach, 100 % would really love that, the profile, when used
Ryan And Sam (26:53)
Okay, interesting.
Monique (26:54)
in latte form, even in usucha, in usucha form. They love the toasty profile of Yame.
matcha. So definitely, cannot remember any other vendors who sell yame matcha here. So I cannot really give comparison. But for the profile that I'm able to give with matcha from Yame most of the cafes really love it. And of course, they're
customers like it as well. So maybe in the Philippines, the preference is more for this toasty Yame matcha than rather than umami forward matcha of the other place in Japan.
Ryan And Sam (27:43)
That's awesome. Is a lack of bitterness very important? We've done a lot of consumer testing and collected quite a bit of data on consumer preferences in the Philippines and we noticed that compared to a lot of other markets there was a real sensitivity towards bitterness. Yeah. And in most of the context seemed to be very negative but
Monique (28:05)
Yeah.
Ryan And Sam (28:05)
curious of how that translates in matcha.
Monique (28:07)
Well, I was surprised this past few days because I've been giving some samples of this matcha that has more bitterness. It's a second harvest matcha.
Ryan And Sam (28:20)
So.
Monique (28:21)
wasn't expecting people, especially the home users who are used to using the popular Japanese matcha brands, to like this profile of more bitterness.
Maybe it's because of the profile of Yame matcha But I was surprised that so many people like it in latte form. And they like the bitterness because it cuts through the milk and all the other sweeteners, all the other ingredients used for latte. more, even in the cafe,
They really love this matcha with a little bit of bitterness because the flavor, especially for latte, the flavor was able to cut through the other latte ingredients.
Ryan And Sam (29:12)
Okay.
Monique (29:13)
I had a very interesting experience these past few days with this kind of matcha.
Ryan And Sam (29:19)
Very interesting. Yeah, that is interesting. Well, I can totally see that working, like balancing out a beverage. Yeah, or offer some kind of structure to the overall flavor profile of some bitterness. Especially if the
Monique (29:30)
Yeah,
Ryan And Sam (29:33)
status quo is mostly these pre -mixes, you know, they add
like a lot of other flavors in those pre -mixes too. It's not just the matcha flavor.
Monique (29:43)
Yes.
Ryan And Sam (29:44)
So it's interesting where you have something that's like with a lot of strength, that's almost an ingredient that holds up to, that holds its own in the kind of get masked. That's cool.
We've been talking more and more about that, how a lot of this matcha evaluation is done without milk. And it's just so far away from the way, like the majority of the world loves drinking their matcha. And like everyone's tasting notes. it's, you know, I don't like my matcha with milk. like it's, I less personally don't resonate it from a consumer centric standpoint. It's like surprising to me that not more sensory analysis and
product evaluation or product optimization. Like people make barista grade matcha, but why isn't anyone like really leveraging the full spectrum of quality of ingredients and then like specifically optimizing for milky contexts? It seems
to be
Monique (30:40)
Yeah.
Ryan And Sam (30:41)
where like that's where people are at. it's, you know,
Monique (30:43)
Thanks
Ryan And Sam (30:44)
it's, this might be a little difficult cause you know, milk might taste very different from country to country. That's so true.
Monique (30:51)
Mmm.
Yep.
Ryan And Sam (30:53)
Yeah.
Monique (30:54)
I remember when I started my matcha journey, I always consume usucha or sometimes gocha. And
Ryan And Sam (31:01)
Mm.
Monique (31:02)
then I do not want to use matcha for latte because I feel that it's such a waste to use matcha, this
Ryan And Sam (31:10)
Yeah.
Monique (31:11)
precious matcha for adding milk and other ingredients. But when I shifted to a matcha business,
I had to learn how to drink latte because I have to learn
how to best best ratios for this specific matcha that I sell. I had to drink latte every day, not just once, twice, sometimes four times to recalibrate. And I would
Ryan And Sam (31:38)
That's a lot.
Monique (31:40)
drink the latte because I feel it's such a waste to throw it.
Ryan And Sam (31:43)
no, wow, that's a lot. A ton of milk too.
Monique (31:46)
Yeah, currently think that's why more people appreciate this bitterness because we're still very young. We're still a newbie when it comes to tasting this tea. So right now,
stands out will be, is this latte flavorful? Do I enjoy it? Right now, that seems to be the case. It should be, especially for people who are not very particular with their taste, with the taste
Ryan And Sam (32:21)
Yeah.
Monique (32:21)
of the matcha. It just has to be enjoyable. So
Ryan And Sam (32:26)
Yeah.
Monique (32:27)
right now, as we are introducing pure
pure tea and pure authentic matcha to the Philippine cafes. It seems that this is it right now. We just have to work with what is a flavorful and tasty matcha latte and what will be the matcha that suits this preference of consumers.
Ryan And Sam (32:51)
I've
noticed too, in tasting some of the lattes, especially in Bangkok and Thailand, that the base drink, like when you go to MTCH, you can choose different matcha to be mixed in a different latte context. The variety of flavor expression is enormous. Like some will taste like chocolate. Some tastes like very umami. Some are like
toasted nuts and very nutty when mixed with it. And I was in North Thailand in Chiang Mai and I met Tom from Chaseki and he had an Uji -Hikari cultivar gelato and I tasted it. It completely changed my perspective of milk plus matcha, or in this case, milk and sugar frozen plus matcha. It had very little bitterness.
which I thought was kind of like a no -no when it came to mixing matcha and milk, but it was packed with umami. It was the first like full -bodied umami, koicha tasting. I don't really have quite the right word. Matcha gelato I've ever had. And the more I taste, there's like a lot of room to explore too within that realm by I guess using different matcha from
different places or different regions or I guess even different seasons to play around with that flavor expression and to get something. But like one of these drinks that I had in Thailand, honestly, if you put a blindfold on me and you asked me, what am I drinking? I would have said, I don't know, frozen hot chocolate. I wouldn't have even said it. And I mean, that really is a compliment. Like it was a very, it's wild. I don't know. There's a lot to be explored there. The diversity of flavor is pretty crazy.
Monique (34:38)
Yes.
Here in the Philippines, I don't see that much exploration when it comes to matcha and its different profiles, especially for specialty matcha like single origin or single cultivar matcha. It's still a very new concept. Even in those
Even with those who use matcha at home, many still do not know the cultivated varieties used for matcha and do not know that there will be different expression and profiles depending on the cultivated variety that they use. But I remember there's this
cafe in the southern part of Metro Manila. They try to explore different matcha food products and last July they offer this nori, seaweed infused matcha latte. And of course you already have an idea of how it would taste like but this one's interesting because
Ryan And Sam (35:37)
I don't
Monique (35:38)
they salted caramel sauce in it and it's
Ryan And Sam (35:42)
okay.
Monique (35:43)
It's a very interesting experience. loved it. I would like to try it again. But I would love to see more of these happening in the cafes here in the Philippines. This exploration of different ways to prepare and serve matcha food products. Because currently, it's more of a...
the usual pairings for latte and I'd love to see more of the exploration of these different kinds of matcha products.
Ryan And Sam (36:18)
Yeah. Probably will bring a lot of new consumers into the market because it's getting them a product that they say, yeah, I like this. And then they want to try more matcha. It's
Monique (36:27)
Yep.
Ryan And Sam (36:29)
like the top of the discovery funnel is like interest through something else. then actually
Monique (36:33)
Hmm.
Ryan And Sam (36:34)
in a way like China is kind of like that too. Like you're interested in like
Monique (36:37)
or yet.
Ryan And Sam (36:38)
deaf culture and then you learn more about whatever it is, pick your topic, like the ceramics, the lacquerware, the...
Monique (36:43)
Yeah.
Ryan And Sam (36:44)
calligraphy, or
Monique (36:49)
Yes.
Ryan And Sam (36:50)
Cool.
Monique (36:51)
I just want to know where you are at when it comes to the matcha mill. Because I'm very much excited
about any updates where you are at right now.
Ryan And Sam (37:02)
We
are in the development of prototype number two and we are on a prototype 20 or 30 of our grind cell and the cooling system and all the mechanisms. But we're getting there. We were hoping to bring it with us to Japan this trip, but it's not ready for prime time. We have milled matcha that looks like matcha and
Monique (37:30)
Awesome.
Ryan And Sam (37:31)
It's the cooling system's not the greatest yet. So it didn't taste great compared to our reference sample, which was Isuzu mill. But the color was correct. And the particle size was about right. Like when you do the street test,
Monique (37:44)
that's Yeah.
Ryan And Sam (37:46)
you couldn't tell. that's progress.
Monique (37:48)
But were
you able to reach your goal of the five micron science?
Ryan And Sam (37:54)
Five microns, yeah, we had a very crude way of measuring it. We need to get it like officially lab tested.
Monique (37:59)
I guess it's true.
Ryan And Sam (38:01)
Through a grindo meter, we got down to five microns. It
Monique (38:04)
Wow.
Ryan And Sam (38:04)
looked like the distribution of it, like we were a little coarser than ishiusu So we to work through that. it's getting there. It's getting there. It's actually
Monique (38:14)
Yeah, very exciting.
Ryan And Sam (38:17)
very difficult to make sure it doesn't get too hot.
and very difficult to make sure it can grind fast enough. Yeah, they
Monique (38:23)
Hmm.
Ryan And Sam (38:24)
all in a way contradicting each other. Yeah, everything is fighting itself in this system. Yeah, if you want to mill faster, the temperature is going to rise. And if you exert more pressure, then you won't be able to mill that fast because you have larger torque.
Monique (38:40)
Well.
Ryan And Sam (38:42)
And you finer particles, you need more pressure and it's...
It's all very, it's a big learning process. We have failed enough that we're finally learning more to hopefully reduce the risk of failure in the next version. But it has been fun.
Monique (39:00)
But they're very excited.
I'd love to hopefully I can experience fresh ground matcha because haven't experienced fresh ground matcha. Maybe the best one would be six day old matcha but never freshly ground matcha. I don't really know how it tastes like.
Ryan And Sam (39:22)
But it's hard. mean, even in Japan, like we're in Kyoto, I don't think there's anywhere where we could go in the city to get day old matcha. Like it's just, it's like not a thing here either. It seems to be really being pioneered in the States and I guess a little bit in Thailand for people that have very bravely and I don't know, it's not a good word. And well, would say brave is a good word. Brave is a pretty good word.
Monique (39:50)
Yes. Yes. Yeah. Very much. Yes. Yeah.
Ryan And Sam (39:50)
that much money importing issues all the way from Japan. needs some courage.
So it's such a new concept. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, no, we're working on it and we're going to do a little tour with the machine once it's ready. So we'll certainly pass to the Philippines. Face to face and yeah.
Monique (40:11)
Yay!
Ryan And Sam (40:16)
and share some of that.
Monique (40:16)
I'd love to
tour you around to different cafes, especially those who already started using matcha
Ryan And Sam (40:23)
Awesome. that'd be great.
So before we wrap up, how have your own preferences changed as you have gotten into Matcha?
And sort of how is your background, I guess in music and in Urasenke sort of influenced like the way you initially approached it and how was your perception of enjoying matcha just in your own personal journey? How has that changed over the past few years?
Monique (40:47)
At beginning of my matcha journey, I used to consume usucha a lot. I think it's the same
Ryan And Sam (40:52)
Mm -hmm.
Monique (40:54)
story
being able to consume a lot of pure being so more of a matcha purist was which a
Ryan And Sam (41:03)
Yeah, okay.
Monique (41:06)
And then definitely I was I was able to see that more people had to adjust my preference as well because I am into the matcha business that more people would appreciate matcha.
in latte form. before I used to be, I used to consume matcha only as a sucha and I really dislike the idea of a latte because it's such a waste. So and now I whenever I drink latte, I'd be very critical about the taste. Okay, so there's
Ryan And Sam (41:42)
Hahaha
Monique (41:44)
already so many things going on in my mind.
I drink latte? How does the matcha fare with the different ingredients and the balance of the flavors? So it definitely changed from being very much into pure tea, now transition to matcha latte because this is how I believe most people enjoy matcha and will be enjoying matcha in the future.
especially in the Philippines where matcha is still very new. am trying to with how the market is approaching matcha. So for example, my preference when it comes to...
being precise. For example, when I started my matcha journey, I only have matcha set, like the chawan, the scoop, and then of course the matcha. And that's it. I consume it every day. But as I go deeper into matcha and my journey progressed, I realized this need to be precise with the measurements.
So I invested on a weighing scale and a temperature -controlled kettle so I can recreate the same experience and the same taste and I can record it and for me to have enough data so I can share it to the people I work with. So definitely
Ryan And Sam (43:15)
Hmm.
Monique (43:16)
that changed from being the usual matcha
Ryan And Sam (43:19)
you
Monique (43:19)
consumer.
of not having any equipment to do precise measurements. And now it's shifted to making sure that I record the experience by using these equipment like the rings, kiln, the temperature controlled kettle. that I was, my preference has shifted in that sense.
Ryan And Sam (43:43)
Yeah, well being yeah replicating is so important. I've discovered too it's like if you don't measure or weigh the matcha like you
Monique (43:52)
Mmm.
Ryan And Sam (43:52)
know it's really hard to tell the difference between like I don't know half a a gram sometimes by just looking at the powder volume but like it's if you're using a two gram dose you know you go a little bit higher it's like a 20 percent increase and
Monique (44:08)
I see so many of these precision scoops and I'm like, it's very interesting that people are very much into this type of tool when they can actually buy a weighing scale. Actually, that's one of my
Ryan And Sam (44:22)
Yeah.
Monique (44:23)
questions to you guys because I would love to know if you also plan to...
design
something for weighing matcha. Yeah, because right now we're using...
Ryan And Sam (44:32)
it's funny you say that. Yes, we are.
Monique (44:36)
okay. Because currently
Ryan And Sam (44:37)
Yeah, I will.
Monique (44:38)
we're very much into using the weighing scale for coffee. But it's
Ryan And Sam (44:43)
Yep.
Monique (44:44)
still very... It's not very accurate. So I'd
Ryan And Sam (44:47)
Yeah.
Monique (44:48)
to have an equipment that will be used for weighing matcha. Almost like air -like weight.
Ryan And Sam (44:54)
Yeah, it's very difficult. Weighing and dosing are much, it's not that easy because the quantity is not very large. The sensitivity that you need a very sensitive scale, but you're also working with like a very heavy bowl and a lot of water. like usually scales either can support a lot of weight and are less sensitive or they're, ultra sensitive, max a hundred grams. Yeah.
Or they need a very ideal usage environment to be able to do it correctly, at least for the current technology. They're usually used in pharmaceuticals. You weight the medicine powder. And they need to be on a very, very flat surface. And you oftentimes need to put a little protection chamber on top of it to prevent any airflow.
to influence the weight. But we are working on something with the right compromises between cost and accuracy that is specifically for matcha. And actually our goal is to have a sifter built in so you can ask for a certain quantity. And then basically the value proposition to a business or consumer is you just don't have to touch dry matcha powder. If you put the matcha in, it sits in there and it sifts and doses it. And then
Boom, it's in your vessel and then you just use it.
Monique (46:20)
Maybe
good addition to the matcha
Ryan And Sam (46:24)
Yeah, yeah.
It would probably be separate product in the beginning, but
Monique (46:29)
Yes. yeah, that's great.
Ryan And Sam (46:32)
we might incorporate them together. Yeah, that's the dream where it's together. So you say I want two grams, it's milk, so it finishes.
Monique (46:39)
Wow, such a dream.
Ryan And Sam (46:42)
it's more difficult and potentially expensive problem.
Actually, we noticed this when we were weighing our fresh mill matcha when it's running very slow if it just slowly slowly slowly enters the scale the scale can't register it which was wild to me so if it's going in like I don't know like 0 .1 grams or even less at a time Because it's so little weight whatever the trigger mechanism is in the scale Doesn't work. Yeah, so we were like,
we're not milling any matcha and then we go weigh it separately it's like this is like three grams which we could tell by looking at it it was pretty expensive coffee scale yeah it was a nice I think it's one of the hardest scales or something yeah so far we found that this is really the best scale for matcha the Acacia
Monique (47:32)
What's the brand?
Ryan And Sam (47:35)
Acacia Acacia
Monique (47:36)
I think it's a Japanese brand
Ryan And Sam (47:38)
I don't think so actually. But you can put a bowl on it and click tare a pretty heavy bowl, and you get immediate 0 .1 gram resolution. Because a lot of these, if your bowl is too heavy, it doesn't start registering any weight until like two grams. I don't know why.
Monique (47:58)
that's wild.
Ryan And Sam (47:59)
It's very frustrating using some of the coffee scales for matcha.
But so far this one works well for us.
Monique (48:07)
Looking forward to that matcha weighing scale in the future.
Ryan And Sam (48:13)
Probably a year out by the time it's like full designed and manufactured. We're slowly learning how this is all done and the products are designed. That was a new area for us too.
Monique (48:26)
But is the freshly ground matcha, is the weight of the freshly ground matcha different from the weight of the older matcha? Does it change?
Ryan And Sam (48:35)
Good question.
that's a great question. Probably it's similar because the moisture content is low. I can't imagine where the mass would be transferred. Yeah. And it's not like coffee because coffee holds a lot of carbon dioxide. So I think like a couple percent of the weight will be lost in carbon dioxide as it degasses. But I don't think that exists within matcha. Well, assuming it's perfectly sealed. If it's not, then it might absorb some water moisture.
I go the other way. I do know that the volumetric measurement is not good. It's not very accurate because the density of matcha can change. Whether or not you sift it or not, like when you sift it, it gets a little more fluffy so it gains some volume. For a cafe, a lot of cafes, it's probably fine, especially if you're not changing matcha supplies, like different matchas. But between matchas, the density can change.
I mean, it's a problem
Monique (49:27)
Yeah.
Ryan And Sam (49:27)
with volumetric based measurement. And a lot of these things are packaged too. Some people like vacuum seal it and the matcha gets really tightly clumped, but like others, it's a can and it's just in there.
Monique (49:39)
Yes.
Ryan And Sam (49:40)
It's a little more fluffy.
Monique (49:42)
It's also very different.
Ryan And Sam (49:44)
Yeah, because I think with that compaction you gets a little more dense. And then also I'm not sure, but I'm very convinced that different tencha has different densities. It's just a suspicion. It's a hunch of mine, but maybe between cultivars or different blends, it's just naturally going to be more or less dense depending on like how thick the leaves were for the tencha.
Monique (50:03)
Yep.
Ryan And Sam (50:04)
Or fibrous the leaf is. Or how well they de -stemmed it.
that's so
Monique (50:09)
Yeah.
Ryan And Sam (50:09)
interesting. Yeah. Because you don't have to de -stem as much if you're ball milling. maybe ball mill matcha might be more dense because you don't have to have just the tender leafy leaf parts. So I bet this to actually it makes sense. It's very different. The leafy leaf is much less than the veins and stems and stuff. Yeah. And the
Monique (50:29)
Are you familiar with the
beads milling? Because I wonder if it's different from ball milling. Is it different? Like the ball milling and beads? okay.
Ryan And Sam (50:33)
Yeah, I'll mail it. I think it's the same. It's the same. Same. Yeah.
Monique (50:40)
Because that I recently realized that where I source my matcha is actually using this beads mill. And I'm like, I didn't know. I should have checked. But
Ryan And Sam (50:51)
Yeah.
Monique (50:53)
maybe that's why they are able to sell the matcha in a lower price but still has good quality. I think it's very useful for
my type of business right now because if I use a matcha, if I sell matcha ground in an issue, so it's gonna be more expensive. But for the
business use, I think right now the one that I source, is using beads mill, it's just okay.
Ryan And Sam (51:26)
The only problem about bead and ball milling is that the powder morphology can be very round so it would condense
Monique (51:33)
Wow.
Ryan And Sam (51:33)
or precipitate very quickly in the usucha form. I guess it wouldn't matter too much in like a latte. A more viscous.
Monique (51:40)
In Latin. But I wonder if you would taste
a difference? I mean, would there be any texture difference? Like, can you feel it?
Ryan And Sam (51:51)
Well, it's sub 20,
sub 15 microns, it's
Monique (51:57)
Yes.
Ryan And Sam (51:58)
pretty hard to detect the texture difference for a human tongue. In the drink, I think there's less difference, but it forms a lower quality suspension. But when you touch it and feel it with your fingers, the ishiusu is very almost sticky. It's the way those particles interact with each other, sticky, clumpy.
and the ball milled ones are they have less cohesive forces because there's a surface area. It's much more silky soft when you touch it when you touch it dry.
But you usually don't dose dry powder into your mouth, yeah? Like usually.
Monique (52:32)
Yeah.
Ryan And Sam (52:35)
New matcha consumption movement started here. Right, just one egg scoop.
Monique (52:40)
I remember that's how I consumed matcha the very first time I had matcha. just...
Ryan And Sam (52:47)
Really?
Monique (52:48)
That was a total fail because I put two tablespoons of matcha straight into the blender.
I was thinking, why is it so clumpy? And I just drank it because
Ryan And Sam (52:59)
Hahaha
Monique (52:59)
it was such a waste. So I was not able to sleep that night.
Ryan And Sam (53:04)
I bet.
Although Brian from Matsu Matcha does, he intakes dry powder, which is very
Monique (53:12)
Wow!
Ryan And Sam (53:13)
interesting practice. Yeah. He does something so cool, Brian. He's starting a brand in Singapore called Matsu Matcha. And he first tastes a little bit of the dry powder. He takes four grams and he makes a koi cha. He drinks half of the koi cha.
and then makes an usucha So he has it from most concentrated to least concentrated form. And it's like, wow, that's like a clever idea. Did you get like three sensory data points for one? And
Monique (53:43)
Yes.
Ryan And Sam (53:44)
so it's like, wow, I need to try this.
Monique (53:47)
Yeah, I usually do that when I do koicha because it's... it will be wasted in matcha if I just throw it. And
Ryan And Sam (53:53)
Yeah, there's so much extra. Yeah.
Monique (53:55)
I think you can do like put matcha in capsule form. you can then pop it. Yes, you're
Ryan And Sam (54:01)
Direct consumption.
Monique (54:04)
immediately awake without tasting any bitterness and doing all that.
All that preparation.
Ryan And Sam (54:11)
wow, next stage injection. It's
Monique (54:15)
yes!
Ryan And Sam (54:16)
healthier than a caffeine pill. Awesome. Alright.
Monique (54:18)
No.
That would be interesting if somebody comes up with a match pill
Ryan And Sam (54:25)
Macha pill? I'm
sure it exists in one of the supplements. Yeah,
Monique (54:28)
Yeah, it is.
Ryan And Sam (54:29)
health aid. I don't want to know what's inside it. Definitely ultra high end, uji matcha.
Monique (54:37)
Yeah,
I also saw this match of cubes, I haven't tried it yet. I wonder how it really works. It's already in cube form, and then you just drop it in the water and maybe you shake
Ryan And Sam (54:51)
Yeah, I
saw that too. I've never talked to anyone who's tasted it, but I went through some of the reviews and some of the reviewers were not very kind. But it's clever. don't know, anything you can do to reduce the, you know, the preparation, effort, headache
Monique (55:06)
Yes.
Ryan And Sam (55:06)
and friction. Like you just bring in more consumers to the category. Yeah. And even within consumers in the category, like sometimes I don't want or cannot spend.
10 to 15 minutes doing it properly.
Monique (55:19)
Yep.
Ryan And Sam (55:20)
So it's nice having options. yeah. Got to need your last minute emergency matcha Yes.
Monique (55:25)
Yeah.
Ryan And Sam (55:26)
Cool. All right. All right.
I think that's all we have time for. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider sharing it with a friend or giving us a rating. And thank you so much, Monique, for coming on and really appreciate all of your time and knowledge.
Monique (55:42)
Thank you very much.
Ryan And Sam (55:43)
Thank you. See you in the future.
Monique (55:45)
Bye.
